Humans are one of the, if not the most aggressive species on this planet, so I think the combination of aggression and intelligence, has made it possible to dominate our environment.
I don't think modern medicine is the only to blame for this, and i am sure glad it exists, because otherwise my life had ended at the age of thirteen months old, when i was diagnosed with a chronicle illness. But I do think modern medicine and the increase of our time here on earth has made the already fragile balance between humans and their environment on earth some what more fragile. The concept of being able to dominate our environment, and stand above it instead of being a part of it has made us almost destroy the earth!!! I'm not sure its in our basic nature to restore the damage we have done, I hope we can learn how to do so in time...
If you are interested in learning more about the Relational Frame Theory, I will include some links:
I was JUST using the RFT out at the wolf reserve! And glad to hear your input on this. I love that you as well recognize the inability to accurately test subjects of the animal world against the human subjects. Even as an animal behaviorist I still can't tell you what an animal is trying to say. I can only read or interpret what we have known to exist as their communication patterns. But I did have a very unique experience with one of the whelp say the reserve. That was a huge point in the study results, and that is the relativity of time, relation, and memory. Which has only briefly been studied in any animals.. But it was a very unique result expressed by one 1 yr old whelp. All the others followed instinctual relativity, when I brought the reserve's ONE pet dog in with me. However the lead female made it obvious the whelp was out of line, and he still attempted to Uniate contact with the domesticated dog, so it goes to show that sometimes it has a bit to do with curiosity winning out over validated instinct.
None the less, seeing someone else lost on RFT was kinda cool!
And no horses are no where NEAR the same scale of intellect as humans. And while animals do EXPERIENCE emotions, they don't serve them like we do. The closest I've found in my research is the elephant and the whale. But we actually ACT on emotions. Animals do not. They experience them, they suffer grief, they are attatched to their offspring, but they don't practice vengeance, they don't lie to cover guilt, they don't conspire against one another.. These are all actions based on emotional motive. Animals don't have that capacity, is what I was saying, when I said they don't serve emotion.
If whales, dolphins, and maybe even elephants had hands capable of fine motor skills, they very well might be on top of the food chain. But since they are physically limited, humans win. I think it's got more to do with opposable thumbs than it does intelligence. Lucky fucking humans!
Not quite.. Apes and primates of like sort have very very high intelligence, and the closest thing TO opposable thumbs, and they aren't ruling things. It is a matter of advantage for sure.. But o think our thumbs have nothing to do with it. It's how we USE the intelligence we have.. Versus using it in in the most basic sense. Really the only thing that truly sets us apart from the animals, OTHER than our THUMBS, is the ability to process multiple capacities of intellect at one time. Animals don't serve emotion, they don't use logic, and they can't reason, at least not on the level we can. However.. I do think what you're saying about humans and luck?? Is dead on.. We got lucky, plain and simple.
Hi, Whispering Hands, I suppose in the quotes above you use the RFT to make your point. But I do not completely agree with your argumentation. RFT is a theory based on the human ability to think, nowhere are emotions mentioned in this theory.
I believe animals act only out of their emotions, as do humans in a way. The big difference according to RFT is the ability of humans to reflect on their emotions, with their minds. Humans are capable to reason about their own feelings and the feelings of others due to their ability to understand relations out of contextual cues. People lie, because they understand they will get punished if they have done bad things, they can imagine how an other person feels and they have the ability to make a choice between the feelings and desires of themselves and others. Because humans are able to understand the feelings of others they can lie, if they try to spare the others painful feelings, or to avoid expected punishment.
I do like RFT and have some knowledge about this theory, but I don't directly work with it like you do. Steven Hayes the founder of RFT is also the founder of a third generation Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), which is the method I practice with. ACT is based on RFT, and if someone is interested in reeeeeally long post I will explain the world view of this method in a PM, but I will not bore the rest of you with it....
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
Oh my. Were you at a book festival?
I'm going to a festival this summer; the schedule includes several authors I like but none of them would be on my own personal "A" list.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
Oh my. Were you at a book festival?
Don't say book festival. I had to miss Book Con this year cuz of emergency home repair stuff. AND a soccer game but who's counting.
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
Oh my. Were you at a book festival?
Don't say book festival. I had to miss Book Con this year cuz of emergency home repair stuff. AND a soccer game but who's counting.
My condolences.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
Oh my. Were you at a book festival?
Don't say book festival. I had to miss Book Con this year cuz of emergency home repair stuff. AND a soccer game but who's counting.
Adams! Of course. I met the Douglas Adams once briefly. For as funny as his books are he seemed like one of the saddest people I'd ever met. No idea what what wrong but I really felt for the guy.
Isn't that always how it goes though? I'm jealous that you got to meet him.
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And I met Robert Silverberg on the same day. Wow!
Oh my. Were you at a book festival?
I'm going to a festival this summer; the schedule includes several authors I like but none of them would be on my own personal "A" list.
No, actually it was at a college bookstore trade fair in San Francisco. I was sent to the fair to represent our college store as an office supply buyer hoping to work my way out of pens, and binders and paper clips and into books. I quickly made my way through all of the office supply wholesaler's booths and then queued up at Adam's and Silverberg's book signing lines. Sadly, both of those signed books went missing from my shelves several years ago without a clue as to what happened to them. Maybe they slipped into the author's alternate universes, haha!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"What if Humans Aren’t the Most Intelligent Creatures on the Planet?"
We'd be in luck - if you haven't noticed, we're not doing so hot. Most other beings can live in balance with their environment and we can't even manage to achieve what amounts to maintaining the status quo. We may be 'intelligent' in our ability to temporarily upset the natural course of things, but is it intelligent to continue to do so? It seems to me our ability to 'cheat' the natural balance is temporary and nature will eventually rebalance things. It's difficult for me to believe our continuing to live as we do is a sign of intelligence.
As to animals not acting on emotions or possessing intellect - watch "Blackfish" (I think that's the name of the documentary?). Killer whales were observed protecting their calves from capture (I believe it was Sea World attempting to capture them - could be wrong) by having a few adults move in one direction as a 'pod' and discretely sending their calves in the other direction accompanied by just a couple of adults, to conceal them in a nearby bay area. Amazing stuff.
Cool article - thanks for sharing!
InMyInnerSense, on your recommendation I watched Blackfish today and was both hugely impressed by the impact of the film. Sadly, Seaworld is still in operation. In the film one of the ex-trainers said something to the effect that 50 years from now the captivity of the bright and sensitive creatures will be seen as a barbaric period in our history.
Isn't it already?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"What if Humans Aren’t the Most Intelligent Creatures on the Planet?"
We'd be in luck - if you haven't noticed, we're not doing so hot. Most other beings can live in balance with their environment and we can't even manage to achieve what amounts to maintaining the status quo. We may be 'intelligent' in our ability to temporarily upset the natural course of things, but is it intelligent to continue to do so? It seems to me our ability to 'cheat' the natural balance is temporary and nature will eventually rebalance things. It's difficult for me to believe our continuing to live as we do is a sign of intelligence.
As to animals not acting on emotions or possessing intellect - watch "Blackfish" (I think that's the name of the documentary?). Killer whales were observed protecting their calves from capture (I believe it was Sea World attempting to capture them - could be wrong) by having a few adults move in one direction as a 'pod' and discretely sending their calves in the other direction accompanied by just a couple of adults, to conceal them in a nearby bay area. Amazing stuff.
Cool article - thanks for sharing!
InMyInnerSense, on your recommendation I watched Blackfish today and was both hugely impressed by the impact of the film. Sadly, Seaworld is still in operation. In the film one of the ex-trainers said something to the effect that 50 years from now the captivity of the bright and sensitive creatures will be seen as a barbaric period in our history.
Isn't it already?
not by a lot of people. just the other day my wife made some comment of "I'd love to take the kids to the San Diego Zoo". I cringed.
I have talked to her in the past about my conflicting emotions of taking our kids to the Winnipeg Zoo. I love that my kids get to see animals, and if the animals are being conserved because of past human interference, that's a different story, but it's a rare story. it pains me to see fish swimming in a glass cage and polar bears sweltering in the heat of the summer.
"What if Humans Aren’t the Most Intelligent Creatures on the Planet?"
We'd be in luck - if you haven't noticed, we're not doing so hot. Most other beings can live in balance with their environment and we can't even manage to achieve what amounts to maintaining the status quo. We may be 'intelligent' in our ability to temporarily upset the natural course of things, but is it intelligent to continue to do so? It seems to me our ability to 'cheat' the natural balance is temporary and nature will eventually rebalance things. It's difficult for me to believe our continuing to live as we do is a sign of intelligence.
As to animals not acting on emotions or possessing intellect - watch "Blackfish" (I think that's the name of the documentary?). Killer whales were observed protecting their calves from capture (I believe it was Sea World attempting to capture them - could be wrong) by having a few adults move in one direction as a 'pod' and discretely sending their calves in the other direction accompanied by just a couple of adults, to conceal them in a nearby bay area. Amazing stuff.
Cool article - thanks for sharing!
InMyInnerSense, on your recommendation I watched Blackfish today and was both hugely impressed by the impact of the film. Sadly, Seaworld is still in operation. In the film one of the ex-trainers said something to the effect that 50 years from now the captivity of the bright and sensitive creatures will be seen as a barbaric period in our history.
Isn't it already?
not by a lot of people. just the other day my wife made some comment of "I'd love to take the kids to the San Diego Zoo". I cringed.
I have talked to her in the past about my conflicting emotions of taking our kids to the Winnipeg Zoo. I love that my kids get to see animals, and if the animals are being conserved because of past human interference, that's a different story, but it's a rare story. it pains me to see fish swimming in a glass cage and polar bears sweltering in the heat of the summer.
Precisely! For the most part (fun as they are) zoos are animal prisons. The right thing to do is to stop thinking of wild animals as our pets and give them more natural space. This is why I'm an advocate for Wildlands Network, an organization that strives to create wildlife corridors to wild animals proper space to migrate.
One of the ideas brought up in this film and in the extras (don't miss the extras!) is of creating a "retirement" sanctuary for these whales. Most would not survive out in the open ocean so the idea would be to use a part of a cove where they at least would be in a more natural state.. They point out that there are such sanctuaries for other animals (like the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee that takes in circus elephants). People would be able to go to these sanctuaries and see the killer whales and the animals would be far more happy and comfortable in the more natural state.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"Ecologically speaking, we are without a doubt the most stupid of all the species. One day I was arguing with a Norwegian whaler who said to me, "Watson, how can you say that whales are more intelligent than people?" I replied, "Well, I measure the intelligence of species based on its ability to live in harmony with the natural world, and according that that criterion, whales are more intelligent than humans. To which he replied, "But if that is the criterion, beetles are more intelligent than we are." So I said to him, "George, you are beginning to understand what I'm trying to tell you. The big concern is that ecology is a matter of survival, and so we cannot maintain the same level of stupidity much longer."
-Paul Watson in Interview With a Pirate, Captain Paul Watson, Lamya Essemlali with Paul Watson, page 45
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I feel awful, looking back about 5 years, that I took my daughter to a circus, and we rode an elephant together. I can't imagine how awful it is for that animal to be paraded around in circles with kids on its back all day. Elch. If I ever ran for office, I'd outlaw zoos and circuses (and any kind of animal entertainment) in my area.
"Ecologically speaking, we are without a doubt the most stupid of all the species. One day I was arguing with a Norwegian whaler who said to me, "Watson, how can you say that whales are more intelligent than people?" I replied, "Well, I measure the intelligence of species based on its ability to live in harmony with the natural world, and according that that criterion, whales are more intelligent than humans. To which he replied, "But if that is the criterion, beetles are more intelligent than we are." So I said to him, "George, you are beginning to understand what I'm trying to tell you. The big concern is that ecology is a matter of survival, and so we cannot maintain the same level of stupidity much longer."
-Paul Watson in Interview With a Pirate, Captain Paul Watson, Lamya Essemlali with Paul Watson, page 45
I can see that. It's just that I see that as a different type of intelligence than I was originally thinking. something like "ecologically intellectually superior". there are different types of intelligence that we are already discovering within our own species; emotional intelligence, for instance.
I feel awful, looking back about 5 years, that I took my daughter to a circus, and we rode an elephant together. I can't imagine how awful it is for that animal to be paraded around in circles with kids on its back all day. Elch. If I ever ran for office, I'd outlaw zoos and circuses (and any kind of animal entertainment) in my area.
I'm torn on zoo's and have had incredible experiences visiting them. They do good work and keep species alive. Now quality of life is horrible. But biggest problem is human reproduction and taking of species habitats. And fk the church for promoting it.
Comments
Yes, I too will read more thoroughly later- busy morning!
None the less, seeing someone else lost on RFT was kinda cool!
I believe animals act only out of their emotions, as do humans in a way. The big difference according to RFT is the ability of humans to reflect on their emotions, with their minds. Humans are capable to reason about their own feelings and the feelings of others due to their ability to understand relations out of contextual cues. People lie, because they understand they will get punished if they have done bad things, they can imagine how an other person feels and they have the ability to make a choice between the feelings and desires of themselves and others. Because humans are able to understand the feelings of others they can lie, if they try to spare the others painful feelings, or to avoid expected punishment.
I do like RFT and have some knowledge about this theory, but I don't directly work with it like you do. Steven Hayes the founder of RFT is also the founder of a third generation Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), which is the method I practice with. ACT is based on RFT, and if someone is interested in reeeeeally long post I will explain the world view of this method in a PM, but I will not bore the rest of you with it....
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
I'm going to a festival this summer; the schedule includes several authors I like but none of them would be on my own personal "A" list.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Isn't it already?
I have talked to her in the past about my conflicting emotions of taking our kids to the Winnipeg Zoo. I love that my kids get to see animals, and if the animals are being conserved because of past human interference, that's a different story, but it's a rare story. it pains me to see fish swimming in a glass cage and polar bears sweltering in the heat of the summer.
www.headstonesband.com
One of the ideas brought up in this film and in the extras (don't miss the extras!) is of creating a "retirement" sanctuary for these whales. Most would not survive out in the open ocean so the idea would be to use a part of a cove where they at least would be in a more natural state.. They point out that there are such sanctuaries for other animals (like the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee that takes in circus elephants). People would be able to go to these sanctuaries and see the killer whales and the animals would be far more happy and comfortable in the more natural state.
-Paul Watson in Interview With a Pirate, Captain Paul Watson, Lamya Essemlali with Paul Watson, page 45
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/human-intelligence-versus-whales-and-dolphins/