If they were able to serve their emotions??? God how scary would it be to Piss off your cat??? Lol
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"
-Roberto Benigni
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
If whales, dolphins, and maybe even elephants had hands capable of fine motor skills, they very well might be on top of the food chain. But since they are physically limited, humans win. I think it's got more to do with opposable thumbs than it does intelligence. Lucky fucking humans!
Thumbs do help, but having opposable thumbs is not what makes us intelligent.
I didn't say they did. I said that they allow us to do things with our intelligence that other animals can't.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The human brain lacks conspicuous characteristics—such as relative or absolute size—that might account for humans' superior intellect.
That quote is borrowed from a site that I frequent often more than this place believe it or not. Quite often AMT has topics that are covered at this site. Lengthy article but covers a lot ground with regard to this thread.
If whales, dolphins, and maybe even elephants had hands capable of fine motor skills, they very well might be on top of the food chain. But since they are physically limited, humans win. I think it's got more to do with opposable thumbs than it does intelligence. Lucky fucking humans!
Not quite.. Apes and primates of like sort have very very high intelligence, and the closest thing TO opposable thumbs, and they aren't ruling things. It is a matter of advantage for sure.. But o think our thumbs have nothing to do with it. It's how we USE the jntligenve we have.. Versus using it in in the most basic sense. Really the only thing that truly sets us apart from the animals, OTHER than our THUMBS, is the ability to process multiple capacities of intellect at one time. Animals don't serve emotion, they don't use logic, and they can't reason, at least not on the level we can. However.. I do think what you're saying about humans and luck?? Is dead on.. We got lucky, plain and simple.
They don't have opposable thumbs. They are incapable of fine motor skills. If there could put together a computer, I bet they could probably learn how to. At least the smart ones. Actually, whales, dolphins, primates, and elephants do indeed act on emotion. I'm thinking you might be confusing their inability to communicate fully with humans for a lack of intelligence. Apparently, scientists who have analyzed the brains of whales and dolphins say that it's quite likely that they have at least as much emotional intelligence as humans, and may actually be MORE intelligent (but I'm not talking horses here. I have never seen any scientific study suggesting that the intelligence of horses even comes close to that of humans).
show me one scientific study that states that whales and dolphins are possibly more INTELLECTUAL than humans.
if they are, I'd better brush up on my accounting skills. Flipper might take my job.
I never uttered the word intellectual, but I'm not touching on that unless you tell me what you mean by it.
Here is just a vague overview of some of the considerations: http://www.whalefacts.org/are-whales-intelligent/ (I'm not using this as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
And here is an interesting article about what studies look at when exploring the brains of whales: http://greymattersjournal.com/killer-whales-are-non-human-persons/ (I'm not using these as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
I personally believe that the failure of humans to translate complex animal languages (and vice versa) is what creates a really exaggerated impression that the most intelligent animals aren't as smart as they really are. I also think that people tend to define evidence of intelligence with a very narrow outlook that is based on culture. People like to say that such and such an animal couldn't be as smart as humans because they don't build stuff. Or don't have technology. Or don't have a written language. Or, laughably, that they don't talk. Obviously, I think this kind of thinking leads to people grossly underestimating the intelligence of certain animals. They aren't using the right measurements.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I can't believe there are so many that think any animal is more intellectual than humans. As a whole, we are the most intelligent beings. There are bad apples in the bunch. You'll have that with 7 billion plus. The simple fact that we can debate is proof enough.
This doesn't mean I don't think other animal species aren't intelligent. I understand that animals have intelligence and can communicate with each other. It's rather amazing how whales, dogs, primates, and countless other species can communicate with each other. I just don't think they are more intelligent than us.
If whales, dolphins, and maybe even elephants had hands capable of fine motor skills, they very well might be on top of the food chain. But since they are physically limited, humans win. I think it's got more to do with opposable thumbs than it does intelligence. Lucky fucking humans!
Not quite.. Apes and primates of like sort have very very high intelligence, and the closest thing TO opposable thumbs, and they aren't ruling things. It is a matter of advantage for sure.. But o think our thumbs have nothing to do with it. It's how we USE the jntligenve we have.. Versus using it in in the most basic sense. Really the only thing that truly sets us apart from the animals, OTHER than our THUMBS, is the ability to process multiple capacities of intellect at one time. Animals don't serve emotion, they don't use logic, and they can't reason, at least not on the level we can. However.. I do think what you're saying about humans and luck?? Is dead on.. We got lucky, plain and simple.
They don't have opposable thumbs. They are incapable of fine motor skills. If there could put together a computer, I bet they could probably learn how to. At least the smart ones. Actually, whales, dolphins, primates, and elephants do indeed act on emotion. I'm thinking you might be confusing their inability to communicate fully with humans for a lack of intelligence. Apparently, scientists who have analyzed the brains of whales and dolphins say that it's quite likely that they have at least as much emotional intelligence as humans, and may actually be MORE intelligent (but I'm not talking horses here. I have never seen any scientific study suggesting that the intelligence of horses even comes close to that of humans).
show me one scientific study that states that whales and dolphins are possibly more INTELLECTUAL than humans.
if they are, I'd better brush up on my accounting skills. Flipper might take my job.
I never uttered the word intellectual, but I'm not touching on that unless you tell me what you mean by it.
Here is just a vague overview of some of the considerations: http://www.whalefacts.org/are-whales-intelligent/ (I'm not using this as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
And here is an interesting article about what studies look at when exploring the brains of whales: http://greymattersjournal.com/killer-whales-are-non-human-persons/ (I'm not using these as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
I personally believe that the failure of humans to translate complex animal languages (and vice versa) is what creates a really exaggerated impression that the most intelligent animals aren't as smart as they really are. I also think that people tend to define evidence of intelligence with a very narrow outlook that is based on culture. People like to say that such and such an animal couldn't be as smart as humans because they don't build stuff. Or don't have technology. Or don't have a written language. Or, laughably, that they don't talk. Obviously, I think this kind of thinking leads to people grossly underestimating the intelligence of certain animals. They aren't using the right measurements.
What is more, neuronal messages must travel longer distances in the relatively large brains of elephants and whales than they do in the more compact human brain. The resulting boost in information-processing speed may at least partly explain the disparity in aptitude between humans and other big-brained creatures.
Among humans' cerebral advantages, language may be the most obvious. Various animals can convey complex messages to other members of their species; they can communicate about objects that are not in sight and relay information about individuals and events. Chimpanzees, gorillas, dolphins and parrots can even understand and use human speech, gestures or symbols in constructions of up to about three words. But even after years of training, none of these creatures develops verbal skills more advanced than those of a three-year-old child.
In humans, grammar and vocabulary all but explode at age three. This timing corresponds with the development of Broca's speech area in the left frontal lobe, which may be unique to humans. That is, scientists are unsure whether a direct precursor to this speech region exists in the nonhuman primate brain. The absence of an intricately wired language region in the brains of other species may explain why, of all animals, humans alone have a language that contains complex grammar. Researchers date the development of human grammar and syntax to between 80,000 and 100,000 years ago, which makes it a relatively recent evolutionary advance. It was also one that probably greatly enhanced human intellect.
I can't believe there are so many that think any animal is more intellectual than humans. As a whole, we are the most intelligent beings. There are bad apples in the bunch. You'll have that with 7 billion plus. The simple fact that we can debate is proof enough.
This doesn't mean I don't think other animal species aren't intelligent. I understand that animals have intelligence and can communicate with each other. It's rather amazing how whales, dogs, primates, and countless other species can communicate with each other. I just don't think they are more intelligent than us.
For the record, I didn't say any animal was more intellectual than humans. I said a few may be at least as intelligent.
But if your measuring stick is the ability to debate, then I'm kit sire it's fair. That is just a human way of thinking about it. Animals lack the verbal abilities.... but IF certain animals had that in their brains, perhaps they could easily compete with humans intellectually. If so, that means they are already as intelligent as people. Theu just don't posess certain physiological features so that they can express it in a way we'd understand.
Anyway, clearly, i am pretty openminded when it comes to certain animal intelligence. That said, we don't to overestimate it in certain animals either. Just as people tend to reject intelligence because they are using the wrong criteria, they also project human qualities onto animals, especially dogs, whihc tends to cause people to overestimate the intelligence of some animals.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
It is quite fascinating that our species can think, predict and discuss about our pending demise. An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
It is quite fascinating that our species can think, predict and discuss about our pending demise. An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
True But that ant just may be able to predict an earthquake 3 weeks in advance.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
It is quite fascinating that our species can think, predict and discuss about our pending demise. An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
True But that ant just may be able to predict an earthquake 3 weeks in advance.
It is a good thing that we can pick up those cues given off.
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
It is quite fascinating that our species can think, predict and discuss about our pending demise. An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
True But that ant just may be able to predict an earthquake 3 weeks in advance.
It is a good thing that we can pick up those cues given off.
And let's not even start discussing rubber tree plants.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Wow- lots to read here. I'm at work so will catch up later but want to jot this thought down:
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
Partly because dolphins aren't smart enough to.
Actually, it's because they have no reason to. Haman are destructive namely because they are greedy. So is greed a sign of intelligence???
greed itself is not a sign of intelligence, no. But what what got us to develop greed, did require that intellectual capacity, unfortunately.
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
It is quite fascinating that our species can think, predict and discuss about our pending demise. An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
True But that ant just may be able to predict an earthquake 3 weeks in advance.
It is a good thing that we can pick up those cues given off.
And let's not even start discussing rubber tree plants.
Intelligence is best defined, and understood as the making use of processed information in our day to day lives. There are 10 basic types, ( 12 if you count the sub forms of logical intelligences), all based on particular sections of brain usage/function. So to say we are the most intelligent creature on earth is really rather stupid. We are one of very few species that squanders resources, and then 're-adapts' into the usage of secondary resources. Some others include sheep, goats and pigs. Now having mentioned pigs, they are REGULARLY classified as a most intelligent animal. ( you can teach a pig more tricks than a dog for example, ALMOST as many as you can teach a horse). Dolphins however have the highest capacity to learn and morize active 'tricks'. But they don't have quite the same problem solving skills as a Crow. So really, intelligence is a matter more of defined perception than a definite divination. As for wether we are the smartest beings in the planet, seeing how we are the only species that has serial killers, or rapists, and child moletsers, even given the ability to weigh reason upon conscience.. I'd say that is a lie. I think we made it to the top simply because we took advantage of our abilities over the disadvantages of other species.
I know the discussion has moved on a bit from when this was posted (I always miss out on the good discussions when I'm at work), but I wanted to come back to this point. WH, I know you have a lot of experience with animals but I think you have romanticized a lot of animal behaviour. The animal kingdom is rife with examples of behaviour that wouldn't meet your moral standards, including those you mentioned. The males of many animal species, from mammals to birds to insects, force sex, often with violence and sometimes with damage to the female. The males of several species will kill the whole litter of young of a female to bring her back into estrus so they can breed with her, and they don't eat them after. Some primates (and one mustelid) will mate with immature females of their species. The list could go on.
This is all an aside to the main topic, which is of relative intelligence; I have thoughts on that, too, but couldn't just let this point lie.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Intelligence is best defined, and understood as the making use of processed information in our day to day lives. There are 10 basic types, ( 12 if you count the sub forms of logical intelligences), all based on particular sections of brain usage/function. So to say we are the most intelligent creature on earth is really rather stupid. We are one of very few species that squanders resources, and then 're-adapts' into the usage of secondary resources. Some others include sheep, goats and pigs. Now having mentioned pigs, they are REGULARLY classified as a most intelligent animal. ( you can teach a pig more tricks than a dog for example, ALMOST as many as you can teach a horse). Dolphins however have the highest capacity to learn and morize active 'tricks'. But they don't have quite the same problem solving skills as a Crow. So really, intelligence is a matter more of defined perception than a definite divination. As for wether we are the smartest beings in the planet, seeing how we are the only species that has serial killers, or rapists, and child moletsers, even given the ability to weigh reason upon conscience.. I'd say that is a lie. I think we made it to the top simply because we took advantage of our abilities over the disadvantages of other species.
I know the discussion has moved on a bit from when this was posted (I always miss out on the good discussions when I'm at work), but I wanted to come back to this point. WH, I know you have a lot of experience with animals but I think you have romanticized a lot of animal behaviour. The animal kingdom is rife with examples of behaviour that wouldn't meet your moral standards, including those you mentioned. The males of many animal species, from mammals to birds to insects, force sex, often with violence and sometimes with damage to the female. The males of several species will kill the whole litter of young of a female to bring her back into estrus so they can breed with her, and they don't eat them after. Some primates (and one mustelid) will mate with immature females of their species. The list could go on.
This is all an aside to the main topic, which is of relative intelligence; I have thoughts on that, too, but couldn't just let this point lie.
Thanks, oft. I was going to make this same (albeit, much more remedial) point, but forgot.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
Wait a minute guys, you're applying moral standards to a discussion about wild animals? Really? You lost me there.
Wait a minute guys, you're applying moral standards to a discussion about wild animals? Really? You lost me there.
No - replying to WH's post about animal behaviour in contrast to human behaviour.
Edit - to make it more clear - WH asserts that animals are essentially superior because they do not engage in these behaviours; I'm asserting that they do.
Post edited by oftenreading on
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Many credible points have been made whilst I was away, engaging in actual human interaction today! Lol first off, I think both PJ_Soul and Hugh have excellent points in their rebuttles, stating that the measuring stick is invalid given that we are basing intelligence upon inaccurate standards against those whom e are measuring said standards against. ( PJ_Soul) AND that we are indeed over thriving, this IS decimating our own populations. ( Hugh)
I fully agree with PJ_Soul on her point that the measurement is way off !!! Way the fuck off..because there is absolutely no reason for any animal to develop the need to speak, to create and solve mathematics, to write, or to build technological entities. There is no need at all. Evolution is comprised of a need infufilled that forces living beings to either adapt without it, or to find some way to create it. ( I personally believe this supports the creation theory.. Because how is it exactly that allllllllll these species crawled out of the ocean but only ONE evolved to the human state????) there is only ONE homo Sapien class.. There are hundred of primate classes, several classes in the family of anthropoids, amphibians, reptiles.. Only one homo Sapien class.. But on THAT subject I digress, we all know we disagree on that part.. Sliiiide....
But my point is.. Once again... Intelligence and intellect are relevant to necessity. So an ant doesn't recognize its own demise, but a human does. How is the ant not realizing it will die, relevant?? That's not a necessary formation of thought. Seek food find food store food feed the next generation.. And above and beyond all dlse make sure the Queen survives.. That is all an ant is programmed to think on. You can try to deter an ant. It WILL find a way to food.. It's programmed to work that way. And an ant uses 100% of its brain which is 1/3 its body in reletive proportion to size.... A human is programmed to analyze and determine HOW to find food long before he/she sets out to obtain food.. And we have brains that are I think 1/16 ghe proportion to our body in relevant size, and we only use 10%...So, the distinction is different. Thus, the intellect will obviously be different. There's no two ways around it.. I'm sure if an animal had the capacity to think as complexly as we do, they'd have some fucked up ways of life too.
And for the record.. Just because I prefer the company of animals over humans, does NOT mean I think they are smarter or more intelligent. I have been involved enough with both species in common settings, as well as complex( training and studying) to know that intelligence is not able to be markedly determined, one over the other, fairly.
If speech and technology and the ability to create and understand these things and others in that realm, are the marked standard, then yes humans are more intellectually structured for that sort of intelligence.. But there other forms of intelligence that animals posses that we can't even wrap our heads around.. And PJ _Soul, thought you might get a kick out of this fact, since you brought up if ammals could speak. Dogs have ghe exact same vocal chord make up that we do! They just don't have the mandible palettes to form structured words as we are capable of doing. That is why you can sometimes find dogs that are able to articulate things that sound just like they are talking.. They are mimicking our words!
Many credible points have been made whilst I was away, engaging in actual human interaction today! Lol first off, I think both PJ_Soul and Hugh have excellent points in their rebuttles, stating that the measuring stick is invalid given that we are basing intelligence upon inaccurate standards against those whom e are measuring said standards against. ( PJ_Soul) AND that we are indeed over thriving, this IS decimating our own populations. ( Hugh)
I fully agree with PJ_Soul on her point that the measurement is way off !!! Way the fuck off..because there is absolutely no reason for any animal to develop the need to speak, to create and solve mathematics, to write, or to build technological entities. There is no need at all. Evolution is comprised of a need infufilled that forces living beings to either adapt without it, or to find some way to create it. ( I personally believe this supports the creation theory.. Because how is it exactly that allllllllll these species crawled out of the ocean but only ONE evolved to the human state????) there is only ONE homo Sapien class.. There are hundred of primate classes, several classes in the family of anthropoids, amphibians, reptiles.. Only one homo Sapien class.. But on THAT subject I digress, we all know we disagree on that part.. Sliiiide....
But my point is.. Once again... Intelligence and intellect are relevant to necessity. So an ant doesn't recognize its own demise, but a human does. How is the ant not realizing it will die, relevant?? That's not a necessary formation of thought. Seek food find food store food feed the next generation.. And above and beyond all dlse make sure the Queen survives.. That is all an ant is programmed to think on. You can try to deter an ant. It WILL find a way to food.. It's programmed to work that way. And an ant uses 100% of its brain which is 1/3 its body in reletive proportion to size.... A human is programmed to analyze and determine HOW to find food long before he/she sets out to obtain food.. And we have brains that are I think 1/16 ghe proportion to our body in relevant size, and we only use 10%...So, the distinction is different. Thus, the intellect will obviously be different. There's no two ways around it.. I'm sure if an animal had the capacity to think as complexly as we do, they'd have some fucked up ways of life too.
And for the record.. Just because I prefer the company of animals over humans, does NOT mean I think they are smarter or more intelligent. I have been involved enough with both species in common settings, as well as complex( training and studying) to know that intelligence is not able to be markedly determined, one over the other, fairly.
If speech and technology and the ability to create and understand these things and others in that realm, are the marked standard, then yes humans are more intellectually structured for that sort of intelligence.. But there other forms of intelligence that animals posses that we can't even wrap our heads around.. And PJ _Soul, thought you might get a kick out of this fact, since you brought up if ammals could speak. Dogs have ghe exact same vocal chord make up that we do! They just don't have the mandible palettes to form structured words as we are capable of doing. That is why you can sometimes find dogs that are able to articulate things that sound just like they are talking.. They are mimicking our words!
Do you know how refreshing it is that you did not bring religion and jesus into your post. You are right when you say you are learning.
Many credible points have been made whilst I was away, engaging in actual human interaction today! Lol first off, I think both PJ_Soul and Hugh have excellent points in their rebuttles, stating that the measuring stick is invalid given that we are basing intelligence upon inaccurate standards against those whom e are measuring said standards against. ( PJ_Soul) AND that we are indeed over thriving, this IS decimating our own populations. ( Hugh)
I fully agree with PJ_Soul on her point that the measurement is way off !!! Way the fuck off..because there is absolutely no reason for any animal to develop the need to speak, to create and solve mathematics, to write, or to build technological entities. There is no need at all. Evolution is comprised of a need infufilled that forces living beings to either adapt without it, or to find some way to create it. ( I personally believe this supports the creation theory.. Because how is it exactly that allllllllll these species crawled out of the ocean but only ONE evolved to the human state????) there is only ONE homo Sapien class.. There are hundred of primate classes, several classes in the family of anthropoids, amphibians, reptiles.. Only one homo Sapien class.. But on THAT subject I digress, we all know we disagree on that part.. Sliiiide....
But my point is.. Once again... Intelligence and intellect are relevant to necessity. So an ant doesn't recognize its own demise, but a human does. How is the ant not realizing it will die, relevant?? That's not a necessary formation of thought. Seek food find food store food feed the next generation.. And above and beyond all dlse make sure the Queen survives.. That is all an ant is programmed to think on. You can try to deter an ant. It WILL find a way to food.. It's programmed to work that way. And an ant uses 100% of its brain which is 1/3 its body in reletive proportion to size.... A human is programmed to analyze and determine HOW to find food long before he/she sets out to obtain food.. And we have brains that are I think 1/16 ghe proportion to our body in relevant size, and we only use 10%...So, the distinction is different. Thus, the intellect will obviously be different. There's no two ways around it.. I'm sure if an animal had the capacity to think as complexly as we do, they'd have some fucked up ways of life too.
And for the record.. Just because I prefer the company of animals over humans, does NOT mean I think they are smarter or more intelligent. I have been involved enough with both species in common settings, as well as complex( training and studying) to know that intelligence is not able to be markedly determined, one over the other, fairly.
If speech and technology and the ability to create and understand these things and others in that realm, are the marked standard, then yes humans are more intellectually structured for that sort of intelligence.. But there other forms of intelligence that animals posses that we can't even wrap our heads around.. And PJ _Soul, thought you might get a kick out of this fact, since you brought up if ammals could speak. Dogs have ghe exact same vocal chord make up that we do! They just don't have the mandible palettes to form structured words as we are capable of doing. That is why you can sometimes find dogs that are able to articulate things that sound just like they are talking.. They are mimicking our words!
Do you know how refreshing it is that you did not bring religion and jesus into your post. You are right when you say you are learning.
This is why reading versus speaking sucks.. I never know if you are serious or being sarcastic...
Many credible points have been made whilst I was away, engaging in actual human interaction today! Lol first off, I think both PJ_Soul and Hugh have excellent points in their rebuttles, stating that the measuring stick is invalid given that we are basing intelligence upon inaccurate standards against those whom e are measuring said standards against. ( PJ_Soul) AND that we are indeed over thriving, this IS decimating our own populations. ( Hugh)
I fully agree with PJ_Soul on her point that the measurement is way off !!! Way the fuck off..because there is absolutely no reason for any animal to develop the need to speak, to create and solve mathematics, to write, or to build technological entities. There is no need at all. Evolution is comprised of a need infufilled that forces living beings to either adapt without it, or to find some way to create it. ( I personally believe this supports the creation theory.. Because how is it exactly that allllllllll these species crawled out of the ocean but only ONE evolved to the human state????) there is only ONE homo Sapien class.. There are hundred of primate classes, several classes in the family of anthropoids, amphibians, reptiles.. Only one homo Sapien class.. But on THAT subject I digress, we all know we disagree on that part.. Sliiiide....
But my point is.. Once again... Intelligence and intellect are relevant to necessity. So an ant doesn't recognize its own demise, but a human does. How is the ant not realizing it will die, relevant?? That's not a necessary formation of thought. Seek food find food store food feed the next generation.. And above and beyond all dlse make sure the Queen survives.. That is all an ant is programmed to think on. You can try to deter an ant. It WILL find a way to food.. It's programmed to work that way. And an ant uses 100% of its brain which is 1/3 its body in reletive proportion to size.... A human is programmed to analyze and determine HOW to find food long before he/she sets out to obtain food.. And we have brains that are I think 1/16 ghe proportion to our body in relevant size, and we only use 10%...So, the distinction is different. Thus, the intellect will obviously be different. There's no two ways around it.. I'm sure if an animal had the capacity to think as complexly as we do, they'd have some fucked up ways of life too.
And for the record.. Just because I prefer the company of animals over humans, does NOT mean I think they are smarter or more intelligent. I have been involved enough with both species in common settings, as well as complex( training and studying) to know that intelligence is not able to be markedly determined, one over the other, fairly.
If speech and technology and the ability to create and understand these things and others in that realm, are the marked standard, then yes humans are more intellectually structured for that sort of intelligence.. But there other forms of intelligence that animals posses that we can't even wrap our heads around.. And PJ _Soul, thought you might get a kick out of this fact, since you brought up if ammals could speak. Dogs have ghe exact same vocal chord make up that we do! They just don't have the mandible palettes to form structured words as we are capable of doing. That is why you can sometimes find dogs that are able to articulate things that sound just like they are talking.. They are mimicking our words!
Do you know how refreshing it is that you did not bring religion and jesus into your post. You are right when you say you are learning.
This is why reading versus speaking sucks.. I never know if you are serious or being sarcastic...
Just think of me as the bible then it will all make sense to you.
Exactly.. So why does it bother you what I in particular post? Not that it matters.. Just don't understand..
I just noticed that one of your opinions did not involve god or jesus. So to me it matters because often you get involved in threads and you assert jesus and god to backup your opinion.
Comments
Piss off your cat??? Lol
If humans are so smart, why are we the only species intentionally fowling our own nest and creating a habitat situation that might lead to our own (and many others) extinction? I can't picture dolphins doing this. They would smirk or laugh at us... but they are probably cursing us for dumping oil and a multitude of toxins in their environment. Not cool, definitely not smart.
The human brain lacks conspicuous characteristics—such as relative or absolute size—that might account for humans' superior intellect.
That quote is borrowed from a site that I frequent often more than this place believe it or not.
Quite often AMT has topics that are covered at this site.
Lengthy article but covers a lot ground with regard to this thread.
The article came from the old website (which is no longer maintained)
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/3051-animal-intelligence-and-the-evolution-of-the-human-mind
The new website is
https://richarddawkins.net/
Here is just a vague overview of some of the considerations: http://www.whalefacts.org/are-whales-intelligent/
(I'm not using this as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
And here is an interesting article about what studies look at when exploring the brains of whales: http://greymattersjournal.com/killer-whales-are-non-human-persons/
(I'm not using these as any proof of anything - just some things that are considered when addressing this topic).
I personally believe that the failure of humans to translate complex animal languages (and vice versa) is what creates a really exaggerated impression that the most intelligent animals aren't as smart as they really are.
I also think that people tend to define evidence of intelligence with a very narrow outlook that is based on culture. People like to say that such and such an animal couldn't be as smart as humans because they don't build stuff. Or don't have technology. Or don't have a written language. Or, laughably, that they don't talk. Obviously, I think this kind of thinking leads to people grossly underestimating the intelligence of certain animals. They aren't using the right measurements.
This doesn't mean I don't think other animal species aren't intelligent. I understand that animals have intelligence and can communicate with each other. It's rather amazing how whales, dogs, primates, and countless other species can communicate with each other. I just don't think they are more intelligent than us.
Among humans' cerebral advantages, language may be the most obvious. Various animals can convey complex messages to other members of their species; they can communicate about objects that are not in sight and relay information about individuals and events. Chimpanzees, gorillas, dolphins and parrots can even understand and use human speech, gestures or symbols in constructions of up to about three words. But even after years of training, none of these creatures develops verbal skills more advanced than those of a three-year-old child.
In humans, grammar and vocabulary all but explode at age three. This timing corresponds with the development of Broca's speech area in the left frontal lobe, which may be unique to humans. That is, scientists are unsure whether a direct precursor to this speech region exists in the nonhuman primate brain. The absence of an intricately wired language region in the brains of other species may explain why, of all animals, humans alone have a language that contains complex grammar. Researchers date the development of human grammar and syntax to between 80,000 and 100,000 years ago, which makes it a relatively recent evolutionary advance. It was also one that probably greatly enhanced human intellect.
But if your measuring stick is the ability to debate, then I'm kit sire it's fair. That is just a human way of thinking about it. Animals lack the verbal abilities.... but IF certain animals had that in their brains, perhaps they could easily compete with humans intellectually. If so, that means they are already as intelligent as people. Theu just don't posess certain physiological features so that they can express it in a way we'd understand.
Anyway, clearly, i am pretty openminded when it comes to certain animal intelligence. That said, we don't to overestimate it in certain animals either. Just as people tend to reject intelligence because they are using the wrong criteria, they also project human qualities onto animals, especially dogs, whihc tends to cause people to overestimate the intelligence of some animals.
If that asteroid didn't hit 60 million years ago..
None of us intelligent fuckers, with thumbs, would be around.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Our species is over-thriving. No species can sustain itself under such rapid growth. Any species that has too many in the herd will eventually die off. We are no different. Whether it is too many elephants in a region with too little vegetation leading to starvation of the entire herd or too many people with too few resources leading to greed, war, famine, murder, pillaging. It is all the same cause and effect. The bubble will burst at some point. That doesnt mean animals who arent self-destructive are more intelligent, or even close to equal. It means they dont currently thrive to the same destructive degree as we are.
An ant can not possibly know that there is a foot overhead with it's name on it.
But that ant just may be able to predict an earthquake 3 weeks in advance.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
edit - auto correct correction
This is all an aside to the main topic, which is of relative intelligence; I have thoughts on that, too, but couldn't just let this point lie.
Edit - to make it more clear - WH asserts that animals are essentially superior because they do not engage in these behaviours; I'm asserting that they do.
I fully agree with PJ_Soul on her point that the measurement is way off !!! Way the fuck off..because there is absolutely no reason for any animal to develop the need to speak, to create and solve mathematics, to write, or to build technological entities. There is no need at all. Evolution is comprised of a need infufilled that forces living beings to either adapt without it, or to find some way to create it. ( I personally believe this supports the creation theory.. Because how is it exactly that allllllllll these species crawled out of the ocean but only ONE evolved to the human state????) there is only ONE homo Sapien class.. There are hundred of primate classes, several classes in the family of anthropoids, amphibians, reptiles.. Only one homo Sapien class.. But on THAT subject I digress, we all know we disagree on that part.. Sliiiide....
But my point is.. Once again... Intelligence and intellect are relevant to necessity. So an ant doesn't recognize its own demise, but a human does. How is the ant not realizing it will die, relevant?? That's not a necessary formation of thought. Seek food find food store food feed the next generation.. And above and beyond all dlse make sure the Queen survives.. That is all an ant is programmed to think on. You can try to deter an ant. It WILL find a way to food.. It's programmed to work that way. And an ant uses 100% of its brain which is 1/3 its body in reletive proportion to size.... A human is programmed to analyze and determine HOW to find food long before he/she sets out to obtain food.. And we have brains that are I think 1/16 ghe proportion to our body in relevant size, and we only use 10%...So, the distinction is different. Thus, the intellect will obviously be different. There's no two ways around it.. I'm sure if an animal had the capacity to think as complexly as we do, they'd have some fucked up ways of life too.
And for the record.. Just because I prefer the company of animals over humans, does NOT mean I think they are smarter or more intelligent. I have been involved enough with both species in common settings, as well as complex( training and studying) to know that intelligence is not able to be markedly determined, one over the other, fairly.
If speech and technology and the ability to create and understand these things and others in that realm, are the marked standard, then yes humans are more intellectually structured for that sort of intelligence.. But there other forms of intelligence that animals posses that we can't even wrap our heads around.. And PJ _Soul, thought you might get a kick out of this fact, since you brought up if ammals could speak. Dogs have ghe exact same vocal chord make up that we do! They just don't have the mandible palettes to form structured words as we are capable of doing. That is why you can sometimes find dogs that are able to articulate things that sound just like they are talking.. They are mimicking our words!
You are right when you say you are learning.
So to me it matters because often you get involved in threads and you assert jesus and god to backup your opinion.
edit - spelling