What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

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  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    oftenreading said:

    Bentleyspop said:

    rr165892 said:

    hedonist said:

    Speaking of knife-wielding maniacs, that incident in New Orleans where the guy armed with a machete and wasp spray attacked several TSA agents...he was shot (not sure where) and survived. But had he been killed by those shots, I wouldn't blame the sheriff holding the gun.

    Typical day in New Orleans.Ehh.....
    What a Dbag.Another stand up member of society that deserves all he gets.I could care less about how these pieces of shit feel or get treated after their violent acts against innocent people.Fuck em.Waste of air.
    But you know that there are people on here who would suggest that the sheriff should have given the machete wieldiing maniac a hug rather then shooting him 3 times.
    Oh yeah, I've seen that suggestion made dozens of times in this thread. Don't you hate it when that happens?
    Yeah hugs and kisses too. Way to add to the discussion bentley!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    People seem to be confused about what the middle way might look like. My idea of the middle way is appropriate judgment on the unique characteristics of each case:

    The Rice and Thomas cases were examples of police brutality where officers abused their positions of power and killed people performing poorly. Almost everybody agrees with this.

    The Brown case had too many variables that ultimately supported the cop. Some continue to shrug off those variables in their eagerness to add to their argument. It has the reverse effect in my mind. Likewise, when a knife wielding maniac charged two cops and was shot, people suggested the cops could have kept circling their car or even get in it and wait until the maniac calmed down... which... of course, is silly. Like it or not, the cops were justified.

    * And I love how indignant some have become when I referred to people consistently trying to shape every police shooting into another unjustified incident that should sound alarms for the nation as 'the anti-police contingency'. They so easily forget how effortlessly some toss out 'apologist' or describe them (ironically considering what I am about to add) as having 'blockages to the brain'.

    I'm not surprised though: when one is consumed by their visions and ideals to the point of self-righteousness... they operate in a less than ideal state of mind for true discussion. If your mind is closed and you have it all figured out... why come to this forum other than to flaunt your opinion and heave insults, Backseat Lover?

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    People seem to be confused about what the middle way might look like. My idea of the middle way is appropriate judgment on the unique characteristics of each case:

    The Rice and Thomas cases were examples of police brutality where officers abused their positions of power and killed people performing poorly. Almost everybody agrees with this.

    The Brown case had too many variables that ultimately supported the cop. Some continue to shrug off those variables in their eagerness to add to their argument. It has the reverse effect in my mind. Likewise, when a knife wielding maniac charged two cops and was shot, people suggested the cops could have kept circling their car or even get in it and wait until the maniac calmed down... which... of course, is silly. Like it or not, the cops were justified.

    * And I love how indignant some have become when I referred to people consistently trying to shape every police shooting into another unjustified incident that should sound alarms for the nation as 'the anti-police contingency'. They so easily forget how effortlessly some toss out 'apologist' or describe them (ironically considering what I am about to add) as having 'blockages to the brain'.

    I'm not surprised though: when one is consumed by their visions and ideals to the point of self-righteousness... they operate in a less than ideal state of mind for true discussion. If your mind is closed and you have it all figured out... why come to this forum other than to flaunt your opinion and heave insults, Backseat Lover?

    So what do you propose we do to stop cases like this? I can't remember any constructive ideas from you, only denunciations of the other side of the argument. Everyone in those cases, and probably 99% of similar cases, ends up exonerated and people say "hindsight is 20/20"
    You are the champion of the victims on these boards so instead of tossing jabs, maybe offer some solutions.
    Or do you think there is reform needed and the Rice and Crawford families should just get over it?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited March 2015
    The Rice and Crawford (I used Thomas as an example) families should be compensated.

    Professional misconduct charges against the officers and they should be discharged. The cops in the Thomas case should have criminal charges brought against them given the amount of time they had to reverse direction and change their course of action.

    I agreed fully with your suggestions and said so in my reply to you. They were comprehensive enough. Do you expect me to generate a different list of suggestions? You used all the good ones.

    The only other things I would add to them- and I did offer this already which you obviously missed telling me I never add anything constructive- are gun legislation and an economic model developed that distributes wealth on a more equitable basis.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited March 2015
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:



    I'm not surprised though: when one is consumed by their visions and ideals to the point of self-righteousness... they operate in a less than ideal state of mind for true discussion. If your mind is closed and you have it all figured out... why come to this forum other than to flaunt your opinion and heave insults, Backseat Lover?

    Good God, you really refuse to read what is written, don't you? That's the problem with people, they only read what they want to, even when I have repeatedly stated how all cops aren't bad. And then you people have repeatedly chosen not to acknowledge the elephant in the room (again, the nation-wide problem of police brutality and racism). Feel free to read the entire thread rather than back step yourself into a corner in regards to attempting to insult. You were doing a fine job of being objective until you started labeling those of us you feel are inferior to you. What you perceive as self-righteousness is my impatience with having to repeat myself constantly when people refuse to read what they don't want to hear. That's closed-mindedness, man.
    brianlux said:

    You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

    And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed?     The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

    Again, the voice of reason and no one responds. The underlined point is the exact point of the entire thread I have been attempting to make; that rather than value life in general, many here are obsessed with making sure people are shot dead by police and not merely injured. That's some fucked mentality right there, I feel that it's possibly so deeply embedded into people's conscience that they don't even know how exactly wrong it is.
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    The Rice and Crawford (I used Thomas as an example) families should be compensated.

    Professional misconduct charges against the officers and they should be discharged. The cops in the Thomas case should have criminal charges brought against them given the amount of time they had to reverse direction and change their course of action.

    I agreed fully with your suggestions and said so in my reply to you. They were comprehensive enough. Do you expect me to generate a different list of suggestions? You used all the good ones.

    The only other things I would add to them- and I did offer this already which you obviously missed telling me I never add anything constructive- are gun legislation and an economic model developed that distributes wealth on a more equitable basis.

    I do remember you agreeing with my suggestions, and everyone can agree gun legislation and better economics are a good idea, so I wasn't quite being fair.
    I guess where I get a bone stuck in my craw is in the absolute lack of consequences when malfeasance is obvious to all.
    The police involved in the death of Rice, Crawford, Thomas, and Garner were all cleared of criminal misconduct and several of them were even cleared of professional misconduct!
    I will not ever be convinced that the total support police receive from people like some of those on here does not directly enable the culture of "brotherhood" protection of its members.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    backseatLover12 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:



    I'm not surprised though: when one is consumed by their visions and ideals to the point of self-righteousness... they operate in a less than ideal state of mind for true discussion. If your mind is closed and you have it all figured out... why come to this forum other than to flaunt your opinion and heave insults, Backseat Lover?

    Good God, you really refuse to read what is written, don't you? That's the problem with people, they only read what they want to, even when I have repeatedly stated how all cops aren't bad. And then you people have repeatedly chosen not to acknowledge the elephant in the room (again, the nation-wide problem of police brutality and racism). Feel free to read the entire thread rather than back step yourself into a corner in regards to attempting to insult. You were doing a fine job of being objective until you started labeling those of us you feel are inferior to you. What you perceive as self-righteousness is my impatience with having to repeat myself constantly when people refuse to read what they don't want to hear. That's closed-mindedness, man.
    brianlux said:

    You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

    And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed?     The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

    Again, the voice of reason and no one responds. The underlined point is the exact point of the entire thread I have been attempting to make; that rather than value life in general, many here are obsessed with making sure people are shot dead and merely injured.
    LOL
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    I've typed out I don't know how many posts / responses that I eventually deleted as drafts. Just hope that the judgments, insults and other personal bullshit can be left aside. It makes a worthwhile discussion...worthless.

    B, do you really think some of us are OBSESSED with having people killed? I hope your post was one of those heat-of-the-moment things, because I haven't seen anyone advocate shooting the fuck out of someone vs. a potentially peaceful or not-ending-in-death outcome.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    On the reverse ,what BSL does not seem to grasp is that what most of us are saying is that regardless of color or ethnicity.If a criminal is trying to take a officers weapon then they will and Should be shot.At that point the idiot who chose this course of action is getting a dose of reality,and what they deserve.
    What is the result if you jump into the path of a train? We all know the outcome. Is the train to blame for the stupidity of the jumper?
    If rascist actions are your concern as they are for many,that is a viable discussion and one that needs debate and examination.But the minute a criminal(regardless of color) takes aggresive action to an officer of the law,the actions that follow have nothing to do with race ir profiling and everything to do with survival of the officer.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    backseatLover12 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:



    I'm not surprised though: when one is consumed by their visions and ideals to the point of self-righteousness... they operate in a less than ideal state of mind for true discussion. If your mind is closed and you have it all figured out... why come to this forum other than to flaunt your opinion and heave insults, Backseat Lover?

    Good God, you really refuse to read what is written, don't you? That's the problem with people, they only read what they want to, even when I have repeatedly stated how all cops aren't bad. And then you people have repeatedly chosen not to acknowledge the elephant in the room (again, the nation-wide problem of police brutality and racism). Feel free to read the entire thread rather than back step yourself into a corner in regards to attempting to insult. You were doing a fine job of being objective until you started labeling those of us you feel are inferior to you. What you perceive as self-righteousness is my impatience with having to repeat myself constantly when people refuse to read what they don't want to hear. That's closed-mindedness, man.
    brianlux said:

    You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

    And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed?     The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

    Again, the voice of reason and no one responds. The underlined point is the exact point of the entire thread I have been attempting to make; that rather than value life in general, many here are obsessed with making sure people are shot dead by police and not merely injured. That's some fucked mentality right there, I feel that it's possibly so deeply embedded into people's conscience that they don't even know how exactly wrong it is.
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I didn't respond to Brian's claim because it is baseless and ridiculous. No one wants people killed. And to go so far as to say that people are obsessed with people being killed? That's laughable, if not downright insulting.

    Everyone wants everyone to live. But more than that, if there has to be a choice, we want the innocents to live. The people being assualted, the people being shot at or stabbed. Cops. Bystanders. And if that can be accomplished AND the accused can also live? Fabulous. Everybody wins.

    Instead of backing up your claims, you brush me off as incompetent. As you have done to many others. I love the "open your eyes!" style of discussion. How sweet.

    It is funny you claim that "no one is acknowledging the elephant in the room". I did exactly that on one and possibly two occassions. so has 30. not sure how that was missed.


    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    rr165892 said:

    On the reverse ,what BSL does not seem to grasp is that what most of us are saying is that regardless of color or ethnicity.If a criminal is trying to take a officers weapon then they will and Should be shot.At that point the idiot who chose this course of action is getting a dose of reality,and what they deserve.
    What is the result if you jump into the path of a train? We all know the outcome. Is the train to blame for the stupidity of the jumper?
    If rascist actions are your concern as they are for many,that is a viable discussion and one that needs debate and examination.But the minute a criminal(regardless of color) takes aggresive action to an officer of the law,the actions that follow have nothing to do with race ir profiling and everything to do with survival of the officer.

    But part of the issue that she is addressing is "are cops shooting quicker with minorities than with white people?", which is a fair question.

    But I don't know if it's a race issue, or a mere experience issue. Humans learn through experience. If you are attacked by 20 dogs. 18 of them are pit bulls. 2 of them are pomeranians. My bet is, if the 21st dog is a pit bull, you might pull the trigger a bit quicker than had it been a pomeranian. That isnt the fault of the cop. It is the fault of not being a robot. Our brains react through experience. That's called self preservation. We all have it. And for the most part, we aren't even concious of it.

    If i am walking downtown, and I see a pack of old ladies walking towards me. Do i cross to the other side? No. If it was a pack of gang bangers? Probably. Profiling? Absolutely. Maybe they were harmless. But my gut survival instinct tells me that chances are much better that the gang bangers are going to cause harm.

    No different with cops. Unfortunately, that decision is often life or death for someone, and requires action/reaction in a split second.



    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.


    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

    And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed? The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

    OK, the high-lighted was poorly worded and I'm OK with the criticism of my poor wording in that sentence. Better wording would be, "And why are some of you so obsessed with it being OK for cops to kill so quickly and easily instead of discussing taking evasive measures when possible." My point is, our society is becoming more and more jaded about violence, more and more inclined to accept a police state mentality, more and more OK with shoot first, ask questions later and at best stagnant on racism.

    What I'm not OK with is the way some of you, including some of you I generally have show respect and high regard for, chose to attack my post. Wouldn't some of you agree it's getting at least a bit viscous and redundant around here?

    What's ironic is that it seems like this forum, which is based on a band that has a more progressive "liberal" (if you will) stance on things, seems to be moving in a more conservative direction. As an old fuck, I'll tell you why that is. It is because, in general, as generations age they seem to become more conservative. Not me and I'm a boomer and boomers are far more conservative today than they were 35-40 years ago. I find that perplexing and at least a bit disturbing. Some of you are going to seek a more conservative stance because you think it will be better for you now that you have a family and a mortgage. You're going to take the "safer" route because something inside tells you status quo is safer. You're going to begin to resist change because change involves risk and you don't want to jeopardize your creature comforts. That's all fine and good on an emotional here and now level but don't be surprised when you start to wonder why your train is no longer moving.



    None of us are obsessed with anything of the kind. I think we can all agree that we are pro-shooting as a last resort. And we all know what the probable root causes are. Many of us have addressed and suggested the same. No one is ignoring anything.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Some seem unwilling to acknowledge this fact, Hugh- that cops are human and as a result... we can safely expect a few things to happen no matter what policies are in place and regardless of training including:

    1. Being shaped by their experiences.
    2. Being prone to error.
    3. Being extra cautious when their life might be at risk.

    And the list goes on.

    We want cops to perform their duties at the highest level possible, but we have to exercise a remote level of understanding when they screw up. Our mentality cannot be, "Go do this incredibly challenging and dangerous job. Do it well, but don't screw up defending yourself because if you do... we will crucify you."

    Think about it for a second... some seem more willing to forgive the assailant for their indiscretion attacking the police officer (alluding to poverty and the resentment they have developed) than they do for the officer hastily making a error in judgement (performing his duties and becoming defensive engaged in an altercation while doing so).

    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

    And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed? The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

    OK, the high-lighted was poorly worded and I'm OK with the criticism of my poor wording in that sentence. Better wording would be, "And why are some of you so obsessed with it being OK for cops to kill so quickly and easily instead of discussing taking evasive measures when possible." My point is, our society is becoming more and more jaded about violence, more and more inclined to accept a police state mentality, more and more OK with shoot first, ask questions later and at best stagnant on racism.

    What I'm not OK with is the way some of you, including some of you I generally have show respect and high regard for, chose to attack my post. Wouldn't some of you agree it's getting at least a bit viscous and redundant around here?

    What's ironic is that it seems like this forum, which is based on a band that has a more progressive "liberal" (if you will) stance on things, seems to be moving in a more conservative direction. As an old fuck, I'll tell you why that is. It is because, in general, as generations age they seem to become more conservative. Not me and I'm a boomer and boomers are far more conservative today than they were 35-40 years ago. I find that perplexing and at least a bit disturbing. Some of you are going to seek a more conservative stance because you think it will be better for you now that you have a family and a mortgage. You're going to take the "safer" route because something inside tells you status quo is safer. You're going to begin to resist change because change involves risk and you don't want to jeopardize your creature comforts. That's all fine and good on an emotional here and now level but don't be surprised when you start to wonder why your train is no longer moving.



    None of us are obsessed with anything of the kind. I think we can all agree that we are pro-shooting as a last resort. And we all know what the probable root causes are. Many of us have addressed and suggested the same. No one is ignoring anything.

    Agreed.

    Except for your last sentence. Some are ignoring the unique characteristics of each case and unfairly categorizing nearly every police killing as unjustified and racially motivated.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Brian, I hope you know you weren't being attacked, and your specific post/comment questioned - fairly so. Again, even though you re-stated, there is no obsession. Surely you can see how that's an unfair assessment of those you respect (as is reciprocated by myself as well as I'm sure others.

    There've been many incidents mentioned in this and other related threads, some seen as valid by no other choice, and others denounced, rightly so. The one here recently in LA had nothing to do with race, nor did Kelly Thomas - my opinions of which are vastly different.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux said:


    What's ironic is that it seems like this forum, which is based on a band that has a more progressive "liberal" (if you will) stance on things, seems to be moving in a more conservative direction. As an old fuck, I'll tell you why that is. It is because, in general, as generations age they seem to become more conservative. Not me and I'm a boomer and boomers are far more conservative today than they were 35-40 years ago. I find that perplexing and at least a bit disturbing. Some of you are going to seek a more conservative stance because you think it will be better for you now that you have a family and a mortgage. You're going to take the "safer" route because something inside tells you status quo is safer. You're going to begin to resist change because change involves risk and you don't want to jeopardize your creature comforts. That's all fine and good on an emotional here and now level but don't be surprised when you start to wonder why your train is no longer moving.



    Actually, I'd like to address this as well, because I was a bit taken aback upon the first (and now) second read.

    I've had a mortgage since my 20s; family is my husband and two cats. We live "safe" when smart, when common sense prevails. We live frugally, save, are debt-free except for our home, and live with (and expect from others) a sense of responsibility. Accountability.

    I suppose if we're talking labels, then yes - conservative in certain senses. Not in all, for sure.

    Kinda sucks having to write this, by the way.


  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    brianlux said:

    Your talking about a few specific incidents, Thirty. Don't assume I think all cops are bad or that their job is easy or that I don't believe people make mistakes. But what about the general trend? Do you really believe that in general the situation is not more violence oriented , more police state oriented, more oriented toward shoot first, ask questions later? Maybe I assume too much by talking about general trends instead of one or two specific situations.

    Also, I find it interesting that the issue of racism and racial profiling keeps being ignored here.

    I'm not making any assumptions. I only speak to what I have read in these threads.

    The situation is becoming troubling, but as I have said throughout this discourse... it's unreasonable to blame cops for these incidents when the roots of the problem lie much deeper and are much more complex than white cops hate black people.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    Your talking about a few specific incidents, Thirty. Don't assume I think all cops are bad or that their job is easy or that I don't believe people make mistakes. But what about the general trend? Do you really believe that in general the situation is not more violence oriented , more police state oriented, more oriented toward shoot first, ask questions later? Maybe I assume too much by talking about general trends instead of one or two specific situations.

    Also, I find it interesting that the issue of racism and racial profiling keeps being ignored here.

    Maybe racial profiling was not a factor in some of these shootings.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.

    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

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