The Detroit Free Press Building!!!

i like torn flags. keep it flying. guess most need the crisp new flag like their new outfits

Personally, I'm way closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)

And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.

edit: The other thing I was going to mention is flag as dress. When Abbie Hoffman wore his flag shirt he was renounced as a traitor. Now flag wavers regularly and often wear flag clothing of every kind imaginable including underwear. A little hypocrisy there, I'd say.

hedonist said:

benjs, as you mentioned about Drowned, I typically feel the same about your posts.

However, this...
"Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel."

I'm neither privileged (at least in the sense to which I think you're alluding) nor indoctrinated.

It's one little thing that has some importance to some; doesn't mean it's to the exclusion of other issues considered loftier or more acceptable or of greater value.

I don't get insulted or offended too often on these boards, but when comments like the above are made by people I respect...well, it sticks in my craw.

Hedonist,

Seems like a circle (triangle?) of respect - which is great (by this I mean I feel the same way about your posts)! Seems we always end up in great and fascinating discussions together.

First of all - the fact that we can afford computers (or computer access, as well as the time) to write on a rock band's message board defines us all as far more privileged than most in the world. As far as indoctrination goes - I think every single being capable of critical thought is indoctrinated in some way, shape, or form by those around us (parents, education systems, society, the media as a few examples). I should have been more clear and less rude about it, but I'm no less privileged or indoctrinated than you or anyone else here. As for the way I expressed myself - my sincerest apologies for my tone and blanket statement - it was pretentious and honestly, pretty douchey and insensitive of me.

As for your second statement about multiple issues - that's something I can get behind wholeheartedly, and as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong in an opinion here. If you're causing no harm then you're alright with me (as Ben Harper says about my favourite illicit drug, but it applies here too). We do have the energy to support multiple causes, and I've openly suggested that pigeon-holing yourself in one cause doesn't happen here and how great that is, so it really was hypocritical of me to speak so heavy-handedly there.

So, my humble apologies, and I hope that we can keep this mutual respect going. Thanks for calling me out on this - it's always a good reminder that you just can't know everything.

WhatYouTaughtMe said:

brianlux said:

Personally, I'm closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)

And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.

Yes, many more pressing issues. I just don't see how taking five minutes to shoot these people an email is going to take away from all of these other issues. Shit, sometimes I take that long to decide which socks to wear.

Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.

It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.

No, doing that is not a bad thing at all. But I have to say, quick emails and one click activism don't mean shit to 99.99 percent of politicians. If you really want to make a dent, you have so sit down and compose a well thought out letter, send it by USPS or make a phone call and ask to talk to someone with some authority. That can take longer than washing a whole load of socks. Again, not that I'm opposed to the quick email but that's about you or I making ourselves feel better, not about making even the tiniest difference about anything. This is sad but true.

brianlux said:

WhatYouTaughtMe said:

brianlux said:

Personally, I'm closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)

And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.

Yes, many more pressing issues. I just don't see how taking five minutes to shoot these people an email is going to take away from all of these other issues. Shit, sometimes I take that long to decide which socks to wear.

Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.

It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.

No, doing that is not a bad thing at all. But I have to say, quick emails and one click activism don't mean shit to 99.99 percent of politicians. If you really want to make a dent, you have so sit down and compose a well thought out letter, send it by USPS or make a phone call and ask to talk to someone with some authority. That can take longer than washing a whole load of socks. Again, not that I'm opposed to the quick email but that's about you or I making ourselves feel better, not about making even the tiniest difference about anything. This is sad but true.

I couldn't agree more. I guess I missed it, I thought we were talking about a simple email from a few people, to whoever maintains The Detroit Free Press building, not writing my state senator. Sorry if I misunderstood where we were going.

Drowned Out said:

And Hedo - I wasn't accusing you specifically of attacking Hank. Just making a generalized, meaningless statement If you've ever attacked someone personally on this board, I haven't noticed.

Thank ya

benjs said:

Hedonist,

Seems like a circle (triangle?) of respect - which is great (by this I mean I feel the same way about your posts)! Seems we always end up in great and fascinating discussions together.

First of all - the fact that we can afford computers (or computer access, as well as the time) to write on a rock band's message board defines us all as far more privileged than most in the world. As far as indoctrination goes - I think every single being capable of critical thought is indoctrinated in some way, shape, or form by those around us (parents, education systems, society, the media as a few examples). I should have been more clear and less rude about it, but I'm no less privileged or indoctrinated than you or anyone else here. As for the way I expressed myself - my sincerest apologies for my tone and blanket statement - it was pretentious and honestly, pretty douchey and insensitive of me.

As for your second statement about multiple issues - that's something I can get behind wholeheartedly, and as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong in an opinion here. If you're causing no harm then you're alright with me (as Ben Harper says about my favourite illicit drug, but it applies here too). We do have the energy to support multiple causes, and I've openly suggested that pigeon-holing yourself in one cause doesn't happen here and how great that is, so it really was hypocritical of me to speak so heavy-handedly there.

So, my humble apologies, and I hope that we can keep this mutual respect going. Thanks for calling me out on this - it's always a good reminder that you just can't know everything.

And thank YOU. Class act, sir.

shortstack said:

Kat said:

I was born in Detroit...a long time ago and it was beautiful then.

awesome!

Her avatar doesn't look a day older than 25

benjs said:

shortstack said:

Kat said:

I was born in Detroit...a long time ago and it was beautiful then.

awesome!

Her avatar doesn't look a day older than 25

for real.

kat and i could have been neighbors. \:D/
...but probably not.

chadwick said:

left a message. i'll call again tomorrow. leave the flags alone

i love me some chadster.