It probably has more impact if each member composes their own email but here is what I sent (to both city@freepress.com and letters@freepress.com) just as an example to get you started. You should probably put your full name, city & state at the bottom as well. Please, for the most impact, let's ALL do this TODAY. "To whom it concerns (please forward this to the appropriate department if warranted), I live near San Francisco, California and have recently learned of the deplorable and disrespectful condition of the two U.S. flags that fly above The Free Press headquarters in Detroit. How ironic that an organization labeling itself "The Free Press" has so little respect for the symbol of one of the many freedoms that we have inherited. Please locate the funds in your budget to replace these two U.S. flags as soon as possible and, in the mean time, immediately lower and remove the damaged flags. Your local post of the American Legion can assist you in the to proper disposal of the damaged flags." Sincerely, (your name) (your city, state)
Detroit's economic problems are going to take time to remedy. If the corporations move back to the city and pay taxes, there could be more people moving there and living there and paying taxes and also buying the Detroit Free Press and then there will be more money...and one thing they'd be buying is new flags. It's really not difficult, not rocket science...it just needs to happen. I was born in Detroit...a long time ago and it was beautiful then. It's beyond sad what has happened there now.
And all anyone had to do about this thread was flag it for us to move it to the appropriate forum. Stop sniping at each other....bad way to start the week. The thread is now in the appropriate forum.
Kat, having spent 4 days in your hometown last week it seems things are turning around. There is quite a bit of construction going on. Talking to locals and Canadians from Windsor, they all seemed to believe things are looking up and in 10 years the city will be rolling along beautifully.
I, for one, enjoyed my stay and would love to go back. Everyone we talked to was very optimistic.
Cheers to them all
I've met Rob
DEGENERATE FUK
This place is dead
"THERE ARE NO CLIQUES, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T JOIN THE FUN" - Empty circa 2015
If this is a cause people want to get excited about....ok. Who am I to judge? Personally, I can think of a bazillion better things to write a letter about, or go make a personal complaint about. I've never been secretive regarding my feelings about nationalist symbols. Like religious symbols, I don't disrespect them because of people I care about and their views....and from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm actually kind of obsessed with them....but I can't help but think that the respect some show these symbols is due to indoctrination and nostalgia for days gone by. Giving any symbol weight or meaning is like speaking in broad generalizations. Try to tell me what the flag means to you, without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...? Seeing how easily offended some get about this topic is enough to feel vindicated in my views.
My pleasure. The U.S. flag represents the freedoms that our ancestors fought for and earned for us. Showing respect to our flag is our way of honoring and showing thanks to those ancestors.
If this is a cause people want to get excited about....ok. Who am I to judge? Personally, I can think of a bazillion better things to write a letter about, or go make a personal complaint about. I've never been secretive regarding my feelings about nationalist symbols. Like religious symbols, I don't disrespect them because of people I care about and their views....and from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm actually kind of obsessed with them....but I can't help but think that the respect some show these symbols is due to indoctrination and nostalgia for days gone by. Giving any symbol weight or meaning is like speaking in broad generalizations. Try to tell me what the flag means to you, without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...? Seeing how easily offended some get about this topic is enough to feel vindicated in my views.
Ok, not that you disagree with those looking to have this fixed but do you want those to chime in with the bazillion things you'd rather take care of? The op noticed the flag of his country was torn. They were hoping to have it changed out. 3 pages of people bitching about the flag means nothing to them is a bit much.
I've met Rob
DEGENERATE FUK
This place is dead
"THERE ARE NO CLIQUES, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T JOIN THE FUN" - Empty circa 2015
I'm not the world's biggest U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A'er myself...however, IF you're going to fly a flag on your privately owned building, there's a certain etiquette you're supposed to follow. If the flag gets all ratty, replace it and dispose of the old flag with dignity.
For me the flag doesn't have any effing thing to do with politics or the troops. Maybe it is all nostalgia, honestly, I'm not really sure what the flag means in this day and age, with corporations and banks running what appears to be a pretty corrupt government, the war machine, and a completely distracted population, scared shitless by the media about contracting the ebola, fantasy football results, and Kim Kardashian
If the newspaper (owned by Gannett..they ironically also publish USA Today...) cannot afford to replace it with a new flag because the economy is terrible and people don't buy newspapers, then don't put a new one up.
Post edited by ikiT on
Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,043
edited October 2014
I consider it a statement about the state of that city and the country at large. WE AINT ALL THAT. IF I had a flag to fly it would be flown backwards and upside down. Shit is seriously wrong in this country.
Besides. consider the location. Right along the river or near enough that it gets quite a bit of wind?
There are damn few places anymore that follow the guidelines in regards to flying the flag.Including the pins all in congress wear. Pres too for that matter.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Yeah, I mentioned the irony in an earlier post. Also wondered about the weather and time factors.
Still, with tiki on the first and third paragraphs of his comments up there.
that second graph does make me seem a little kooky.
Haha, no! I didn't omit it due to disagreement, just that I realized I may still need to sort out my own thoughts about its general meaning (beyond the personal - if that's possible).
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,043
I saluted it often and swore an oath in front of it. It IS a powerful symbol of what the USA is SUPPOSED to be or COULD be . The ideals of this country unfortunately as a whole are not our reality. Anymore I believe the hope that it could better live up to its ideals are diminishing.
Can I suggest a letter to the publisher instead? You just may get action from that.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
If this is a cause people want to get excited about....ok. Who am I to judge? Personally, I can think of a bazillion better things to write a letter about, or go make a personal complaint about. I've never been secretive regarding my feelings about nationalist symbols. Like religious symbols, I don't disrespect them because of people I care about and their views....and from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm actually kind of obsessed with them....but I can't help but think that the respect some show these symbols is due to indoctrination and nostalgia for days gone by. Giving any symbol weight or meaning is like speaking in broad generalizations. Try to tell me what the flag means to you, without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...? Seeing how easily offended some get about this topic is enough to feel vindicated in my views.
Ok, not that you disagree with those looking to have this fixed but do you want those to chime in with the bazillion things you'd rather take care of? The op noticed the flag of his country was torn. They were hoping to have it changed out. 3 pages of people bitching about the flag means nothing to them is a bit much.
I dunno, maybe we're reading the thread differently....I read it as 3 pages mostly taking shots at Hank for his approach to the topic. I'd rather take shots at him for posting unrelated selfies all the time I don't expect others to think this way....but it wouldn't be my opinion if I didn't think it was 'right'. Power to the OP if he thinks it's a worthy cause; I realize this wasn't started as some massive, all-consuming campaign. I guess in strict forum-guideline terms, most of us are off-topic here. But...sometimes it's hard to put that genie back in the bottle. I really don't feel anything either way about the condition of a flag...if anything, it just reflects badly on the company. Bad PR; gives the company a bad impression. If you're going to have ANY kind of decoration on your building, it should be maintained. But esp knowing how some feel about flags, it's just plain bad biz to have a ratty one on your building.
My pleasure. The U.S. flag represents the freedoms that our ancestors fought for and earned for us. Showing respect to our flag is our way of honoring and showing thanks to those ancestors.
Exactly my point.... Cliches that don't mean much upon examination. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick by saying this, but this statement sounds like indoctrinated nationalism to me. Now the examination: Define freedom. Who did your ancestors fight for your freedom, and do you think they'd still be oppressing you today if not for that fight? Did obtaining this freedom come at the expense of other peoples? Do you think the US is unique in its freedoms? Does the US contribute positively or negatively to the freedoms of other countries? How do your answers affect your view of the flag as a symbol of freedom? All rhetorical questions....just trying to show that these kinds of statements are a kind of over-arching acceptance of our histories that should not get blanket acceptance (hence my comment on generalizations). I have no problem with people invoking nostalgia....I get nostalgic over silly things all the time....but I don't think nostalgia leads to people getting up in arms over the symbol....its when people use generalized, rose-coloured history to make a symbol something they are willing to fight and die for, that it becomes very dangerous. It is no coincidence that the most militarized countries are also the ones who promote their national symbols with the most vigour.
I chalk the un-flushed out ideas and kookyness up to Mike McCready withdrawal. One show per tour leg is not enough.
I'll spare you the selfie (there isn't one...) but I did wear this shirt to my Memphis tour stop. I also said hello to Hank, he was super easy to spot.
that second graph does make me seem a little kooky.
Haha, no! I didn't omit it due to disagreement, just that I realized I may still need to sort out my own thoughts about its general meaning (beyond the personal - if that's possible).
That's the beauty of this....I think most of us, if we really drilled down and self-examined the feelings that these symbols provoked honestly, would be left a bit confused and unsure, because the personal aspect ends up relating to nostalgia...and the overall meanings are vague and...well...largely meaningless. tiki - I don't think your second paragraph was kooky or under-flushed at all. Made perfect sense to me.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
that second graph does make me seem a little kooky.
Haha, no! I didn't omit it due to disagreement, just that I realized I may still need to sort out my own thoughts about its general meaning (beyond the personal - if that's possible).
That's the beauty of this....I think most of us, if we really drilled down and self-examined the feelings that these symbols provoked honestly, would be left a bit confused and unsure, because the personal aspect ends up relating to nostalgia...and the overall meanings are vague and...well...largely meaningless. tiki - I don't think your second paragraph was kooky or under-flushed at all. Made perfect sense to me.
Well, my strongest tangible memories of the flag are from my childhood and the experiences shared with my father. We had many a talk about the time before, during and after he served. His respect for it, its place in a fucked-up path taken so that he could help himself and others, and create a decent life for his eventual family. I love him for and value his letting me know that side of him, and I guess I feel its incumbent upon me (though not forced at all) to continue it.
And, I know that many many - too many - young men and women followed similar paths through his and later generations. I don't begrudge them that any more than I would begrudge those who feel differently.
I don't think I took shots personally at Hank for his views, per se...just didn't feel it right to go about it in the way and words it was done. And I'll leave that one at that
If this is a cause people want to get excited about....ok. Who am I to judge? Personally, I can think of a bazillion better things to write a letter about, or go make a personal complaint about. I've never been secretive regarding my feelings about nationalist symbols. Like religious symbols, I don't disrespect them because of people I care about and their views....and from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm actually kind of obsessed with them....but I can't help but think that the respect some show these symbols is due to indoctrination and nostalgia for days gone by. Giving any symbol weight or meaning is like speaking in broad generalizations. Try to tell me what the flag means to you, without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...? Seeing how easily offended some get about this topic is enough to feel vindicated in my views.
As usual with your posts, I agree (I'd say it's our Canadian connection, but I know your feelings on nationalism). Am I going to stomp on a flag? Nope. Am I going to waste energy on petitioning for a private corporation to change a flag attached to their facade because it might imply that America is anything but beautiful? Nope.
My apologies for those I will inevitably offend with this statement - but America is a tattered nation (as shown in its poor distribution of power and wealth, its inequalities in treatment based on race or language, as well as its relentless, aggressive and often soulless responses to international conflicts), and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons are calling for a facelift while ignoring the fucked up nature of the decision-makers (and what I mean by a facelift is that MedUSA is easier to look at when she's wearing a mask than the ugliness underneath - in other words, it's a self-serving call to action). Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel.
At the end of the day, the world is fucked up, and we keep focusing on effects instead of causes. Because we neglect problems and focus on byproducts (collectively), it seems to me that the world will remain fucked up indefinitely. As for flags - I don't believe that focusing on symbols that serve as reminders of our divisiveness does anyone any favours. Wear your nation's flag if it makes you feel good, but that's your flag - do with it what you want. On the other hand, I think we need a flag for "Humans of Planet Earth". That's one I would defend if it got maimed or tattered. Until we found extraterrestrial lifeforms - in which case, we'd need a "Citizens of the Universe" flag (I'd hate for the aliens to feel discriminated against, what kind of a welcome would that be).
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
My pleasure. The U.S. flag represents the freedoms that our ancestors fought for and earned for us. Showing respect to our flag is our way of honoring and showing thanks to those ancestors.
"Exactly my point.... Cliches that don't mean much upon examination." Thank you for asking for my explanation then insulting me for answering. My beliefs are not "clichés" and I don't give a shit if they "don't mean much" to you or not. I am neither dishonest, confused or unsure. But I am done with your bullshit.
My pleasure. The U.S. flag represents the freedoms that our ancestors fought for and earned for us. Showing respect to our flag is our way of honoring and showing thanks to those ancestors.
"Exactly my point.... Cliches that don't mean much upon examination." Thank you for asking for my explanation then insulting me for answering. My beliefs are not "clichés" and I don't give a shit if they "don't mean much" to you or not. I am neither dishonest, confused or unsure. But I am done with your bullshit.
) First - I didn't direct that questions specifically at you...so I didn't ask for your explanation alone. Second - I followed the question with 'without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...?'....so...did you not expect me to examine your answer for meaningless clichés? Third - I never called you any of the things you've implied that I did. Fourth - I even thru in a disclaimer: 'I'm honestly not trying to be a dick by saying this', because I have noticed over the years that people with low post counts (newbs) seem more easily offended. I guess I should have tried harder not to offend you. Or maybe I just shouldn't have given a shit if your response was going to be so caustic anyway. Fifth - I'm glad youre done with my bullshit because you seem unable to grasp my point. You seem offended that I've challenged the perception of the country and flag you were taught to believe in. There is no reason to get this upset over a symbol that has only as much meaning as we place upon it. That is where the 'cliche' and 'meaningless' comments come from. I explained my opinion on this with my 'examination'. If you tried to comment on the validity of my examination instead of taking it personally, you might have proved me wrong. Instead, you've only cemented my opinion with this outburst.
Ben - you're right....as soon as I saw that you were agreeing with me, I felt an urge to chalk it up to 'being canadian'....but you're right, that's another example of our indoctrinated self-view....and one that is increasingly meaningless, cliché, and false. Generally speaking, Canadians are becoming more nationalist...and again, it coincides with our military becoming more offensive.
And Hedo - I wasn't accusing you specifically of attacking Hank. Just making a generalized, meaningless statement If you've ever attacked someone personally on this board, I haven't noticed.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
benjs, as you mentioned about Drowned, I typically feel the same about your posts.
However, this... "Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel."
I'm neither privileged (at least in the sense to which I think you're alluding) nor indoctrinated.
It's one little thing that has some importance to some; doesn't mean it's to the exclusion of other issues considered loftier or more acceptable or of greater value.
I don't get insulted or offended too often on these boards, but when comments like the above are made by people I respect...well, it sticks in my craw.
Thanks for the support guys. I think it should be stressed too that this is not a poor persons dwelling. This is the Detroit Free Press building that happens to be at the foot of the starting line for the weekend's big marathon being covered by the local news. It's certainly very easy to diminish it's significance and say there's a lot of other important things to worry about. Or simply laugh it off and just say who the fuck cares? That is certainly an attitude reflected by many in this city. But I see it as a great opportunity for a proud American, a proud Detroiter to stand strong and make a change for the better. To say we deserve better and I will do something about it. It could be a small victory that inspires others.
Besides, what's wrong with having respect and honor for one's country and city?
the flag has character something maybe like a tibetan prayer flag, they literally fall apart & that is part of the idea
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,801
edited October 2014
Personally, I'm way closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)
And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.
edit: The other thing I was going to mention is flag as dress. When Abbie Hoffman wore his flag shirt he was renounced as a traitor. Now flag wavers regularly and often wear flag clothing of every kind imaginable including underwear. A little hypocrisy there, I'd say.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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WhatYouTaughtMe
I have no idea what's going on right now! Posts: 4,957
Personally, I'm closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)
And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.
Yes, many more pressing issues. I just don't see how taking five minutes to shoot these people an email is going to take away from all of these other issues. Shit, sometimes I take that long to decide which socks to wear.
Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.
It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.
benjs, as you mentioned about Drowned, I typically feel the same about your posts.
However, this... "Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel."
I'm neither privileged (at least in the sense to which I think you're alluding) nor indoctrinated.
It's one little thing that has some importance to some; doesn't mean it's to the exclusion of other issues considered loftier or more acceptable or of greater value.
I don't get insulted or offended too often on these boards, but when comments like the above are made by people I respect...well, it sticks in my craw.
Hedonist,
Seems like a circle (triangle?) of respect - which is great (by this I mean I feel the same way about your posts)! Seems we always end up in great and fascinating discussions together.
First of all - the fact that we can afford computers (or computer access, as well as the time) to write on a rock band's message board defines us all as far more privileged than most in the world. As far as indoctrination goes - I think every single being capable of critical thought is indoctrinated in some way, shape, or form by those around us (parents, education systems, society, the media as a few examples). I should have been more clear and less rude about it, but I'm no less privileged or indoctrinated than you or anyone else here. As for the way I expressed myself - my sincerest apologies for my tone and blanket statement - it was pretentious and honestly, pretty douchey and insensitive of me.
As for your second statement about multiple issues - that's something I can get behind wholeheartedly, and as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong in an opinion here. If you're causing no harm then you're alright with me (as Ben Harper says about my favourite illicit drug, but it applies here too). We do have the energy to support multiple causes, and I've openly suggested that pigeon-holing yourself in one cause doesn't happen here and how great that is, so it really was hypocritical of me to speak so heavy-handedly there.
So, my humble apologies, and I hope that we can keep this mutual respect going. Thanks for calling me out on this - it's always a good reminder that you just can't know everything.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I'm sure that flag in your avatar photo, deadhead365, was not intentionally shredded but when I clicked on you avatar to get a larger picture, I thought it actually looks kind of cool. It reminds me of "Ragged Glory" (old glory ripped/ragged-- NY album title) which reminds me of Neil Young which reminds me of Pearl Jam which reminds me of that shitty copy of Merkin Ball I have to return this week which reminds me of how much I totally love those songs. All of which adds up to mostly good stuff.
Besides, I have to say, to me it looks like a cool old flag- not that I'm much of a flag guy. The way it's torn reminds me of the state in which our country (the U.S.) is in these days - ripped, torn and tattered. So to me, it seems like a very appropriate flag!
Personally, I'm closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)
And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.
Yes, many more pressing issues. I just don't see how taking five minutes to shoot these people an email is going to take away from all of these other issues. Shit, sometimes I take that long to decide which socks to wear.
Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.
It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.
No, doing that is not a bad thing at all. But I have to say, quick emails and one click activism don't mean shit to 99.99 percent of politicians. If you really want to make a dent, you have so sit down and compose a well thought out letter, send it by USPS or make a phone call and ask to talk to someone with some authority. That can take longer than washing a whole load of socks. Again, not that I'm opposed to the quick email but that's about you or I making ourselves feel better, not about making even the tiniest difference about anything. This is sad but true.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Personally, I'm closer the the "symbols are for the symbol minded" (thank you, George) way of thinking that the U-S-A, U-S-A chanters and I don't understand what makes a printed piece of cloth sacred. but I agree with tiki bomb that if a flag is flow as a patriotic symbol, flag protocols should be flowed, otherwise the act reflects either laziness or hypocrisy. And I see no reason not to fly a ragged and torn flag if doing so is intentional for the purpose of making a point. (Not the case here.)
And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.
Yes, many more pressing issues. I just don't see how taking five minutes to shoot these people an email is going to take away from all of these other issues. Shit, sometimes I take that long to decide which socks to wear.
Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.
It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.
No, doing that is not a bad thing at all. But I have to say, quick emails and one click activism don't mean shit to 99.99 percent of politicians. If you really want to make a dent, you have so sit down and compose a well thought out letter, send it by USPS or make a phone call and ask to talk to someone with some authority. That can take longer than washing a whole load of socks. Again, not that I'm opposed to the quick email but that's about you or I making ourselves feel better, not about making even the tiniest difference about anything. This is sad but true.
I couldn't agree more. I guess I missed it, I thought we were talking about a simple email from a few people, to whoever maintains The Detroit Free Press building, not writing my state senator. Sorry if I misunderstood where we were going.
Comments
You should probably put your full name, city & state at the bottom as well.
Please, for the most impact, let's ALL do this TODAY.
"To whom it concerns (please forward this to the appropriate department if warranted),
I live near San Francisco, California and have recently learned of the deplorable and disrespectful condition of the two U.S. flags that fly above The Free Press headquarters in Detroit.
How ironic that an organization labeling itself "The Free Press" has so little respect for the symbol of one of the many freedoms that we have inherited.
Please locate the funds in your budget to replace these two U.S. flags as soon as possible and, in the mean time, immediately lower and remove the damaged flags.
Your local post of the American Legion can assist you in the to proper disposal of the damaged flags."
Sincerely,
(your name)
(your city, state)
I, for one, enjoyed my stay and would love to go back. Everyone we talked to was very optimistic.
Cheers to them all
DEGENERATE FUK
This place is dead
"THERE ARE NO CLIQUES, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T JOIN THE FUN" - Empty circa 2015
"Kfsbho&$thncds" - F Me In the Brain - circa 2015
Personally, I can think of a bazillion better things to write a letter about, or go make a personal complaint about. I've never been secretive regarding my feelings about nationalist symbols. Like religious symbols, I don't disrespect them because of people I care about and their views....and from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm actually kind of obsessed with them....but I can't help but think that the respect some show these symbols is due to indoctrination and nostalgia for days gone by.
Giving any symbol weight or meaning is like speaking in broad generalizations. Try to tell me what the flag means to you, without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...?
Seeing how easily offended some get about this topic is enough to feel vindicated in my views.
The U.S. flag represents the freedoms that our ancestors fought for and earned for us.
Showing respect to our flag is our way of honoring and showing thanks to those ancestors.
DEGENERATE FUK
This place is dead
"THERE ARE NO CLIQUES, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T JOIN THE FUN" - Empty circa 2015
"Kfsbho&$thncds" - F Me In the Brain - circa 2015
For me the flag doesn't have any effing thing to do with politics or the troops. Maybe it is all nostalgia, honestly, I'm not really sure what the flag means in this day and age, with corporations and banks running what appears to be a pretty corrupt government, the war machine, and a completely distracted population, scared shitless by the media about contracting the ebola, fantasy football results, and Kim Kardashian
If the newspaper (owned by Gannett..they ironically also publish USA Today...) cannot afford to replace it with a new flag because the economy is terrible and people don't buy newspapers, then don't put a new one up.
Besides. consider the location. Right along the river or near enough that it gets quite a bit of wind?
There are damn few places anymore that follow the guidelines in regards to flying the flag.Including the pins all in congress wear. Pres too for that matter.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Still, with tiki on the first and third paragraphs of his comments up there.
Can I suggest a letter to the publisher instead? You just may get action from that.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I don't expect others to think this way....but it wouldn't be my opinion if I didn't think it was 'right'. Power to the OP if he thinks it's a worthy cause; I realize this wasn't started as some massive, all-consuming campaign. I guess in strict forum-guideline terms, most of us are off-topic here. But...sometimes it's hard to put that genie back in the bottle.
I really don't feel anything either way about the condition of a flag...if anything, it just reflects badly on the company. Bad PR; gives the company a bad impression. If you're going to have ANY kind of decoration on your building, it should be maintained. But esp knowing how some feel about flags, it's just plain bad biz to have a ratty one on your building.
Exactly my point.... Cliches that don't mean much upon examination. I'm honestly not trying to be a dick by saying this, but this statement sounds like indoctrinated nationalism to me.
Now the examination: Define freedom. Who did your ancestors fight for your freedom, and do you think they'd still be oppressing you today if not for that fight? Did obtaining this freedom come at the expense of other peoples? Do you think the US is unique in its freedoms? Does the US contribute positively or negatively to the freedoms of other countries? How do your answers affect your view of the flag as a symbol of freedom?
All rhetorical questions....just trying to show that these kinds of statements are a kind of over-arching acceptance of our histories that should not get blanket acceptance (hence my comment on generalizations). I have no problem with people invoking nostalgia....I get nostalgic over silly things all the time....but I don't think nostalgia leads to people getting up in arms over the symbol....its when people use generalized, rose-coloured history to make a symbol something they are willing to fight and die for, that it becomes very dangerous.
It is no coincidence that the most militarized countries are also the ones who promote their national symbols with the most vigour.
I'll spare you the selfie (there isn't one...) but I did wear this shirt to my Memphis tour stop. I also said hello to Hank, he was super easy to spot.
tiki - I don't think your second paragraph was kooky or under-flushed at all. Made perfect sense to me.
And, I know that many many - too many - young men and women followed similar paths through his and later generations. I don't begrudge them that any more than I would begrudge those who feel differently.
I don't think I took shots personally at Hank for his views, per se...just didn't feel it right to go about it in the way and words it was done. And I'll leave that one at that
My apologies for those I will inevitably offend with this statement - but America is a tattered nation (as shown in its poor distribution of power and wealth, its inequalities in treatment based on race or language, as well as its relentless, aggressive and often soulless responses to international conflicts), and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons are calling for a facelift while ignoring the fucked up nature of the decision-makers (and what I mean by a facelift is that MedUSA is easier to look at when she's wearing a mask than the ugliness underneath - in other words, it's a self-serving call to action). Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel.
At the end of the day, the world is fucked up, and we keep focusing on effects instead of causes. Because we neglect problems and focus on byproducts (collectively), it seems to me that the world will remain fucked up indefinitely. As for flags - I don't believe that focusing on symbols that serve as reminders of our divisiveness does anyone any favours. Wear your nation's flag if it makes you feel good, but that's your flag - do with it what you want. On the other hand, I think we need a flag for "Humans of Planet Earth". That's one I would defend if it got maimed or tattered. Until we found extraterrestrial lifeforms - in which case, we'd need a "Citizens of the Universe" flag (I'd hate for the aliens to feel discriminated against, what kind of a welcome would that be).
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Thank you for asking for my explanation then insulting me for answering.
My beliefs are not "clichés" and I don't give a shit if they "don't mean much" to you or not.
I am neither dishonest, confused or unsure.
But I am done with your bullshit.
First - I didn't direct that questions specifically at you...so I didn't ask for your explanation alone.
Second - I followed the question with 'without speaking in clichés that mean absolutely fuck all upon examination...?'....so...did you not expect me to examine your answer for meaningless clichés?
Third - I never called you any of the things you've implied that I did.
Fourth - I even thru in a disclaimer: 'I'm honestly not trying to be a dick by saying this', because I have noticed over the years that people with low post counts (newbs) seem more easily offended. I guess I should have tried harder not to offend you. Or maybe I just shouldn't have given a shit if your response was going to be so caustic anyway.
Fifth - I'm glad youre done with my bullshit because you seem unable to grasp my point. You seem offended that I've challenged the perception of the country and flag you were taught to believe in. There is no reason to get this upset over a symbol that has only as much meaning as we place upon it. That is where the 'cliche' and 'meaningless' comments come from. I explained my opinion on this with my 'examination'. If you tried to comment on the validity of my examination instead of taking it personally, you might have proved me wrong. Instead, you've only cemented my opinion with this outburst.
Ben - you're right....as soon as I saw that you were agreeing with me, I felt an urge to chalk it up to 'being canadian'....but you're right, that's another example of our indoctrinated self-view....and one that is increasingly meaningless, cliché, and false. Generally speaking, Canadians are becoming more nationalist...and again, it coincides with our military becoming more offensive.
And Hedo - I wasn't accusing you specifically of attacking Hank. Just making a generalized, meaningless statement
However, this...
"Similarly, here we have a tattered American flag and a privileged group of nationalistically indoctrinated persons somehow alluding that giving a facelift to Detroit's aesthetics will have any bearing on the city itself (which it will - but a new flag does not equate to a new Detroit). To me, it's a poignant parallel."
I'm neither privileged (at least in the sense to which I think you're alluding) nor indoctrinated.
It's one little thing that has some importance to some; doesn't mean it's to the exclusion of other issues considered loftier or more acceptable or of greater value.
I don't get insulted or offended too often on these boards, but when comments like the above are made by people I respect...well, it sticks in my craw.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And I also very much agree with Drowned Out that there are much more pressing issues about which to write one's representatives- not that I would judge someone for writing to their senator but that to me just seems a bit like sitting on the beach swatting flies when a tsunami is approaching.
edit: The other thing I was going to mention is flag as dress. When Abbie Hoffman wore his flag shirt he was renounced as a traitor. Now flag wavers regularly and often wear flag clothing of every kind imaginable including underwear. A little hypocrisy there, I'd say.
Now if it's intentionally left that way as some kind of political statement/protest, I could understand that. If it's out of laziness or oversight, it can't hurt to try and get it replaced.
It doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally and neither does a crucifix. I wouldn't put a battered cross in my lawn out of respect for what it does mean to others.
Seems like a circle (triangle?) of respect - which is great (by this I mean I feel the same way about your posts)! Seems we always end up in great and fascinating discussions together.
First of all - the fact that we can afford computers (or computer access, as well as the time) to write on a rock band's message board defines us all as far more privileged than most in the world. As far as indoctrination goes - I think every single being capable of critical thought is indoctrinated in some way, shape, or form by those around us (parents, education systems, society, the media as a few examples). I should have been more clear and less rude about it, but I'm no less privileged or indoctrinated than you or anyone else here. As for the way I expressed myself - my sincerest apologies for my tone and blanket statement - it was pretentious and honestly, pretty douchey and insensitive of me.
As for your second statement about multiple issues - that's something I can get behind wholeheartedly, and as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong in an opinion here. If you're causing no harm then you're alright with me (as Ben Harper says about my favourite illicit drug, but it applies here too). We do have the energy to support multiple causes, and I've openly suggested that pigeon-holing yourself in one cause doesn't happen here and how great that is, so it really was hypocritical of me to speak so heavy-handedly there.
So, my humble apologies, and I hope that we can keep this mutual respect going. Thanks for calling me out on this - it's always a good reminder that you just can't know everything.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce