Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

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Comments

  • Spags
    Spags Leigh-on-Sea, UK Posts: 3,057
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nltL23SdyVY
    Nature drunk and High
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Not to many riding the truth train...fo sho
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Spags said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nltL23SdyVY

    Wow, a politician with a spine. U listening congress? Senate?
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Aafke said:

    Why does it have to be so bloody black and white with you guys? It's your way or the propaganda, misinformation of the pro Israeli site. As I stated before, don't be so hasty to dismiss, people because they sing a slightly different song than you want to hear, because while doing so, your corner, will be very lonely pretty soon...

    I don't really care if I'm a minority in anything - I try to honor my conscience as I assume others here do, no matter their stance or level of..."curtness" :D

    But overall, agreed - to me, it's not black & white (not much is) but I get that our eyes see differently. They color everything; if they didn't, we'd be fucking machines.

    (didn't mean physically fucking machines...not that there's anything wrong with that)
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Aafke said:

    Why does it have to be so bloody black and white with you guys? It's your way or the propaganda, misinformation of the pro Israeli site. As I stated before, don't be so hasty to dismiss, people because they sing a slightly different song than you want to hear, because while doing so, your corner, will be very lonely pretty soon...

  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 45,168
    badbrains said:

    Spags said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nltL23SdyVY

    Wow, a politician with a spine. U listening congress? Senate?
    Makes me a wee bit proud of my slightly Irish blood.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited August 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Both sides are to blame. That said, does it really matter anymore? This has been going on for over a half a century. It is time to cease-fire. Both sides. No one is winning, everyone is losing.

    Really?

    Refer to page 33 of the Gaza thread in AMT. From JimmyV on down.
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    hedonist said:

    Aafke said:

    Why does it have to be so bloody black and white with you guys? It's your way or the propaganda, misinformation of the pro Israeli site. As I stated before, don't be so hasty to dismiss, people because they sing a slightly different song than you want to hear, because while doing so, your corner, will be very lonely pretty soon...

    I don't really care if I'm a minority in anything - I try to honor my conscience as I assume others here do, no matter their stance or level of..."curtness" :D

    But overall, agreed - to me, it's not black & white (not much is) but I get that our eyes see differently. They color everything; if they didn't, we'd be fucking machines.

    (didn't mean physically fucking machines...not that there's anything wrong with that)
    Good post. This is the crux of the issue to me. Here's how I see it - facts ARE black and white, but the conclusions we draw from them are where the separation occurs. I don't think anyone is disputing most of the actual facts presented in this thread (death toll, bombings, etc...). But it is clear that there are those who believe that because their conclusions are based on facts, their conclusions are fact. I think that is the disconnect. As a silly example, let's say it is 60 degrees in Seattle this evening. That will be the fact. The conclusion I will draw is that it is still shorts and t-shirt weather, and it feels nice. The conclusion that my brother from Phoenix will draw is that it is chilly and time to put on jeans and a hoody. His conclusion is almost the opposite of mine, even though we both agree on the fact that it is 60 degrees.Who is right?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • imcosta
    imcosta Posts: 5
    And the World Will Live as One……Thanks Eddie……perfectly written….and why Pearl Jam never ceases to amaze….
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    jeffbr said:

    hedonist said:

    Aafke said:

    Why does it have to be so bloody black and white with you guys? It's your way or the propaganda, misinformation of the pro Israeli site. As I stated before, don't be so hasty to dismiss, people because they sing a slightly different song than you want to hear, because while doing so, your corner, will be very lonely pretty soon...

    I don't really care if I'm a minority in anything - I try to honor my conscience as I assume others here do, no matter their stance or level of..."curtness" :D

    But overall, agreed - to me, it's not black & white (not much is) but I get that our eyes see differently. They color everything; if they didn't, we'd be fucking machines.

    (didn't mean physically fucking machines...not that there's anything wrong with that)
    Good post. This is the crux of the issue to me. Here's how I see it - facts ARE black and white, but the conclusions we draw from them are where the separation occurs. I don't think anyone is disputing most of the actual facts presented in this thread (death toll, bombings, etc...). But it is clear that there are those who believe that because their conclusions are based on facts, their conclusions are fact. I think that is the disconnect. As a silly example, let's say it is 60 degrees in Seattle this evening. That will be the fact. The conclusion I will draw is that it is still shorts and t-shirt weather, and it feels nice. The conclusion that my brother from Phoenix will draw is that it is chilly and time to put on jeans and a hoody. His conclusion is almost the opposite of mine, even though we both agree on the fact that it is 60 degrees.Who is right?
    Great example!!
    But It depends on who your asking.Im in South Florida,so I agree with your Bro that 60 degrees is cold(Hoody is a bit of a stretch).So he is more right based on my life experience.But ask someone from Canada and they prob agree that your right.All based on how we view that same thing.very cool.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    backseatLover12 said:

    Byrnzie said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Both sides are to blame. That said, does it really matter anymore? This has been going on for over a half a century. It is time to cease-fire. Both sides. No one is winning, everyone is losing.

    Really?

    Refer to page 33 of the Gaza thread in AMT. From JimmyV on down.
    So you can't answer for yourself then?

  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,599
    image
    www.myspace.com
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    Video: Israel's massacre of Gazans (Paid for with U.S tax dollars): https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202724519610366
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/uk-activists-shut-factory-demand-israel-arms-embargo?utm_medium=email&utm_source=transactional&utm_campaign=info@electronicintifada.net

    UK activists shut factory, demand Israel arms embargo
    08/05/2014

    image

    A groups of nine activists today shut down a factory, one of two UK subsidiaries of Israeli arms firm Elbit.

    UAV Engines Limited, in Shenstone, Lichfield (40 minutes north of Birmingham), makes drone engines. According to the Campaign Against the Arms Trade, these have been exported to Israel.

    At 5am this morning, the group shut the main gates to the factory and scaled the eight-meter wall. The group are now camped on the roof, intending to close the factory for as long as possible, and have enough supplies to last a week, they say.

    Speaking from the rooftop over the phone to The Electronic Intifada today, London Palestine Action activist Ewa Jasiewicz said they had successfully shut down the factory: it is completely closed, and the car park empty.

    She said they had water, sunblock and locks to ensure the police could not remove them. Their response to anyone asking when they will leave the rooftop is “when is this company leaving” Lichfield, she said.

    She was in good spirits and said so far the police were merely “tormenting us with constant chatter.” The group have been locking themselves down when necessary.

    “The Palestinian people need more from us than Tweets, Facebook posts and and marches from A to B,” Jasiewicz said.

    In an online video feed that was live for a time today, Jasiewicz stated through a loudspeaker her hope that more people would take action against factories such as this one and like the EDO MBM factory in Brighton.

    A campaign against the factory led by the Smash EDO group has run in Brighton for years. EDO is an arms component factory known to have links with Israel.

    “Britain needs to impose an arms embargo on Israel,” Jasiewicz said. “Crimes against humanity” are taking place in Gaza: “it’s not enough to look in horror at the television … action speaks louder than words,” she implored.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Human Rights Watch Report into war crimes committed in Gaza: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians


    Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians
    August 4, 2014


    (Gaza) – Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.

    Seven Palestinians who had fled Khuza’a described to Human Rights Watch the grave dangers that civilians have faced in trying to flee the town, near the Israeli border, to seek safety in Khan Younis. These included repeated shelling that struck apparent civilian structures, lack of access to necessary medical care, and the threat of attack from Israeli forces as they tried to leave the area.

    “When will there be justice for the civilians in Khuza’a, who suffered shelling for days, then faced deadly attacks by Israeli soldiers after being ordered to leave the town?” asked Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director.

    Khuza’a, which has a population of about 10,000, was the scene of fighting between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups during an Israeli ground offensive in the area on July 23, Israeli news media reported. Israeli forces provided general warnings to Khuza’a residents to leave the area prior to July 21. While the laws of war encourage “advance, effective warnings” of attacks, the failure of civilians to abide by warnings does not make them lawful targets of attack – for obvious reasons, since many people do not flee because of infirmity, fear, lack of a place to go, or any number of other reasons. The remaining presence of such civilians despite a warning to flee cannot be ignored when attacks are carried out, as Israeli forces have done previously.

    “Warning families to flee fighting doesn’t make them fair targets just because they’re unable to do so, and deliberately attacking them is a war crime,” Whitson said.

    Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.

    On the morning of July 23, Israeli forces ordered a group of about 100 Palestinians in Khuza’a to leave a home in which they had gathered to take shelter, family members said. The first member to leave the house, Shahid al-Najjar, had his hands up but an Israeli soldier shot him in the jaw, seriously injuring him.

    Israeli soldiers detained the men and boys over age 15 in an area close to the Gaza perimeter fence. Based on statements from witnesses and news reports, some were taken to Israel for questioning. Israeli forces released others that day, in small separate groups. As one group walked unarmed to Khan Younis, Israeli soldiers fired on them, killing one and wounding two others.

    ...Those who had survived the attack on the basement fled after the strike and walked to Khan Younis, carrying white flags and raising their hands when they came across Israeli soldiers. An Israeli missile strike hit one group of them, killing a man and wounding his cousin, the cousin told Human Rights Watch.

    Human Rights Watch interviewed displaced residents from Khuza’a in Khan Younis. They said they believed that several hundred people were trapped and unable to leave Khuza’a, and expressed concern that many bodies were left in the rubble after intensive Israeli shelling.

    ...Previous fighting in Gaza between Israeli and Hamas forces and other Palestinian armed groups has resulted in near-total impunity for serious violations of international humanitarian law. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas should urgently seek International Criminal Court (ICC) jurisdiction over crimes committed on and from Palestinian territory, as a step toward reducing the accountability gap for grave abuses and deterring crimes in violation of international law, Human Rights Watch said.

    .....
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    PJ_Soul said:

    What I've gathered is that Hamas attacked a group of soldiers who were trying to destroy a tunnel and kidnapped one of them.

    http://www.alternet.org/world/who-broke-ceasefire-obama-blames-hamas-against-all-evidence


    Who Broke the Ceasefire? Obama Blames Hamas Against All Evidence
    In a bid to legitimize Israel’s violence in Gaza, Washington continues a disturbing pattern of baselessly blaming Hamas.
    By Max Blumenthal
    August 1, 2014


    '...The PLO and Palestinian Authority both insisted to AlterNet that Hamas fighters engaged Israeli soldiers inside Gaza well before the cease-fire took effect – and during an Israeli assault on Rafah leading up to the 8am cease-fire.

    “They aborted the cease-fire from the beginning,” said Nabil Shaath from the PLO’s Central Committee.

    A veteran negotiator, Shaath has become the de facto liaison between the PLO and Hamas. He confirmed to AlterNet that PA President Mahmoud Abbas received a briefing from Hamas this morning on the incident near Rafah. Shaath’s account reflects details provided directly by Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip.

    According to Shaath, at 6am Hamas fighters engaged Israeli forces in Rafah. He maintained that it was then — almost two hours before the cease-fire went into effect — that the two Israeli soldiers were killed and the other went missing.

    Shaath’s account was supported by dispatches published before the cease-fire went into effect by the official Twitter account of Hamas’s Qassam Brigades military wing. In a tweet published at 7:34 a.m. on August 1, the Qassam Brigades stated, “At 7 a.m. a group [of Hamas fighters] clashed with [Israeli] forces east of Rafah and caused many injuries and death to them.”

    In a separate tweet published at 6:22 a.m. on the same day, the Qassam Brigades declared, “At 6:30 a.m., a group of the Qassam infiltrated behind enemy lines at east Rafah and bombed a house that the enemy had taken as a stronghold with a Tandem missile after the enemies bombed the whole area.”

    The following day, Qassam Brigades reiterated its description of the incident in an official statement: “The clashes began at 7.00am, before the proposed truce was in effect, while the enemy launched its attack on civilians at 10 a.m, blatantly violating the truce in aims of finding a missing soldier.”

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,892
    I was just following the story as the news came out right after that went down. Later it was clear no one was even taken I believe?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/uks-student-union-condemns-israel-calls-boycott

    UK’s student union condemns Israel, calls for boycott
    08/05/2014

    image
    Members of the NUS National Executive Council shortly after they voted to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign against Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.
    (NUS NEC)

    Solidarity activists in the UK declared victory Monday, as the National Executive Council of the Nation Union of Students voted to pass a motion in solidarity with Palestine, and for an arms embargo against Israel.

    The NEC motion condemned Israel’s lethal assault on and blockade of the Gaza Strip.

    It also called on the NUS membership, comprising seven million students, to boycott “corporations complicit in financing and aiding Israel’s military, including G4S and Hewlett Packard.”

    This is an expansion of already existing NUS policy supporting the BDS movement, as it resolved to “provide information and resources to support student unions and student organizations campaigning for boycott and divestment of companies identified as supporting Israel materially, economically, militarily, and/or as helping maintain the illegal Israeli settlements.”

    One of the main NUS activists pushing for the BDS motion was Malaka Mohammed, a student from Gaza currently studying law in Sheffield. Malaka is a BDS activist back in Gaza, and occasional contributor to The Electronic Intifada.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Imagine that?
    image

    1,865 dead Palestinians since July 6: 429 under age 18, 79 over 60, 243 women.

    A list of those killed during Israel's latest massacre of Palestinians: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

    Imagine that?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    Eddie_Vedder said:

    I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy.

    Lady Warsi, the senior Foreign Office minister, has resigned from the government in protest at its policy on Gaza.

    Lady Warsi, who was previously chairman of the Conservative Party, became the first female Muslim cabinet minister when David Cameron took office in 2010.

    Warsi said on her Twitter account on Tuesday: “With deep regret I have this morning written to the prime minister and tendered my resignation. I can no longer support government policy on Gaza”.

    On Monday, the prime minister’s spokesman refused to say if Israel was behaving disproportionately or doing enough to prevent civilian casualties.

    image


    The Press Association are reporting that in her resignation letter Warsi said:

    [the Government’s] approach and language during the current crisis in Gaza is morally indefensible, is not in Britain’s national interest and will have a long term detrimental impact on our reputation internationally and domestically.

    Lady Warsi goes on to say that "I must be able to live with myself for the decisions I took or the decisions I supported. By staying in government at this time I do not feel that I can be sure of that."
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
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