Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

brianlux

Byrnzie said:

brianlux said:

Ultimately, peace is the answer that makes sense to me (not that everybody here care what I think, of course) but how that can be attained seems like a huge question

It can be attained by forcing Israel to comply with its obligations under international law, including ending the illegal occupation and evacuating the illegal settlements.
It can be achieved by implementing the international consensus, which calls for a two-state settlement of the conict based on U.N Resolution 242. The whole World supports this, including Hamas.
The only thing preventing it is the U.S government.

Thank you for a straight forward answer, Byrnzie. That is encouraging.

If that were to happen, I wonder if the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world would allow the 13.75 million Jews live in peace as well.

brianlux

brianlux said:

Byrnzie said:

brianlux said:

Ultimately, peace is the answer that makes sense to me (not that everybody here care what I think, of course) but how that can be attained seems like a huge question

It can be attained by forcing Israel to comply with its obligations under international law, including ending the illegal occupation and evacuating the illegal settlements.
It can be achieved by implementing the international consensus, which calls for a two-state settlement of the conict based on U.N Resolution 242. The whole World supports this, including Hamas.
The only thing preventing it is the U.S government.

Thank you for a straight forward answer, Byrnzie. That is encouraging.

If that were to happen, I wonder if the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world would allow the 13.75 million Jews live in peace as well.

P.S. I'll check in here later- gotta sleeeeeep.

Byrnzie

brianlux said:

I have to admit (and I know by posting these words I am setting myself up for a shit storm of every kind of verbal abuse) that this issue has me a bit confused. What I have read by those of you who are more informed and educated on this issue leads me to believe that the idea of the Palestinians "letting their children die as a propaganda weapon" or shield seems to be mis-information but then someone like Elie Wiesel who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986 and seems very well education says they are:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/03/world/meast/elie-wiesel-hamas-ad/index.html

Please read the article before telling me to fuck off and die.

It really is despicable that such odious propaganda should be propagated by someone who survived the holocaust.

Elie Weisel also defended two known frauds written on the holocaust: 'The Painted Bird' by Polish writer Jerzy Kosinski, and 'Fragments by' Binjamin Wilkomirski. He defended these books even after they'd been exposed as frauds.

Review of Norman Finkelstein's 'The Holocaust Industry':

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Hoste-Finkelstein.html
'...the author does a fantastic job of exposing the gang of charlatans and frauds that constitute The Holocaust Industry. For a fee of $25,000, survivor Elie Wiesel will tell you that the “secret” of Auschwitz’s “truth lies in silence” and that The Holocaust “leads into darkness,” “negates all answers,” “lies outside, if not beyond, history,” “defies both knowledge and description,” “cannot be explained nor visualized,” and is “never to be explained or transmitted.” To him, to compare Jewish suffering to that of others is a “total betrayal of Jewish history.” A parody of a New York tabloid once had the headline: “Michael Jackson, 60 Million Others, Die in Nuclear Holocaust.” The parody included a letter supposedly from Eli Wiesel in which he protested “How dare people refer to what happened yesterday as a Holocaust? There was only one Holocaust.”

Not only does Wiesel think that Jewish suffering is in a class of its own, but he and organized Jewry guard their unique status in a very creepy way. He withdrew from a conference on genocide because the slaughter of Armenians by the Turks would be mentioned. Jewish organizations have lobbied against a day of remembrance for the Armenians.

Predictably, when the victims of violence are the enemies of Jews, compassion goes out the window.” To Wiesel, Arabs hate Jews for their existence.

Byrnzie

brianlux said:

If that were to happen, I wonder if the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world would allow the 13.75 million Jews live in peace as well.

Why wouldn't they? Jews and Arabs lived perfectly well together in that part of the World before the European Zionists moved in with their ideas of racial supremacy and ethnic cleansing. There's no reason why it can't be a civilized area once again.

Byrnzie

brianlux said:

backseatLover12 said:

Both sides are to blame.

It sure seems that way to me as well

No offence dude, but it's pretty depressing that after all the information on this issue that's already been posted here in these threads, you'd agree with such an absurd comment.

Byrnzie

Leezestarr313 said:

Here's another interesting article.

"What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.

This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet."
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180808/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel#undefined

What a ridiculous article. The fact that so many people (mostly Americans) actually take this shit seriously is one reason why the situation in the Middle East has been able to fester for so long.

Spags

Peace is on.

dignin

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/08/04/obama-signs-bill-giving-israel-225-million-for-missile-defense-system/

Obama signs bill giving Israel $225 million for missile defense system


President Obama on Monday signed a bill that will give Israel $225 million to restock its Iron Dome missile defense system.

The House voted 395-8 to pass the bill Friday night.

The missile shield system was developed jointly by the United States and Israel and is said to have intercepted dozens of rockets fired from Gaza during the conflict that began July 17. The system uses advanced tracking technology to determine if a rocket is headed for a population center; if it is it destroys the rocket mid-flight.

Israel and Hamas agreed late Monday to an Egyptian-sponsored 72-hour cease fire.

At a news conference Friday, Obama underscored Israel's right to defend itself and noted American support for the Iron Dome.

"And so, not only have we been supportive of Israel in its right to defend itself, but in very concrete terms -- for example, in support for the Iron Dome program that has intercepted rockets that are firing down on Israeli cities -- we've been trying to cooperate as much as we can to make sure that Israel is able to protect its citizens," Obama said.

An Israeli airstrike Sunday killed 10 people outside a U.N. school in Gaza, prompting some of the harshest American criticism of Israel since the conflict began.

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a statement that “the United States is appalled by today’s disgraceful shelling” and urged Israel to do more to “avoid civilian casualties” and to protect U.N. facilities.

Before the cease-fire announcement Monday, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said the United States continues to push for a cease-fire and that it has expressed its concerns about the Israeli military living up "to their own standards" about protecting civilians.

"We do continue to believe that the violence in Gaza should end as soon as possible," Earnest said.

brianlux

Well fuck me. Couldn't sleep and then come back here and see more put-down, sarcastic posts. You're a real gem, dude. :-(

Byrnzie

brianlux said:

Well fuck me. Couldn't sleep and then come back here and see more put-down, sarcastic posts. You're a real gem, dude. :-(

Quit exaggerating. There was no 'put down', or 'sarcastic post'. Seems to me that you're looking for an excuse to be offended.

Hundreds of posts have been made in these threads explaining the reality of the situation over there. Hundreds of posts that have documented the history, and the political situation. Nothing too complicated about any of it. And then backseatlover chimes in with a ridiculous, dismissive comment that 'Both sides are to blame' - thereby completely ignoring reality.

I just think it's pretty depressing that you'd then agree with her.

Aafke

Well people, I still think there are many different ways to look at this conflict... All of you claim to just look at the facts, I'm sure you all did, but facts are interpreted in so many ways. Before putting me aside, as some off you will do... Just read the following article, and read it to understand it, not just to reject it...

https://medium.com/i-data/israel-gaza-war-data-a54969aeb23e?_ga=1.228407453.1696459479.1404973476

If we will have any form of peace in the middle east, we will have to step over the blame issue and look for the things we share in common.

Let there be peace...

Byrnzie

Aafke said:

All of you claim to just look at the facts

That's not true. Only about two people posting in this thread have stated that they adhere to the facts, one of them being me.
Nobody else has claimed anything of the sort.
If you actually read through the thread you'll notice that most people just post beliefs and opinions, some of them with no relation to reality at all, such as backseatlovers assertion that 'Both sides are to blame'.

Byrnzie

Aafke said:

Well people, I still think there are many different ways to look at this conflict... All of you claim to just look at the facts, I'm sure you all did, but facts are interpreted in so many ways. Before putting me aside, as some off you will do... Just read the following article, and read it to understand it, not just to reject it...

https://medium.com/i-data/israel-gaza-war-data-a54969aeb23e?_ga=1.228407453.1696459479.1404973476

If we will have any form of peace in the middle east, we will have to step over the blame issue and look for the things we share in common.

Let there be peace...

And what did you actually learn from reading that article? I just read it, and it's pretty innocuous. He points out the Israeli media is incredibly biased and neglects to mention atrocities committed by the IDF, such as the bombing of schools and hospitals.

He also makes the false claim that nobody knows who was responsible for the last bombing of a UNRWA school.

Aafke

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

Byrnzie

Aafke said:

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

The only 'tactic' I use is sticking to the facts.
Although I understand why facts are troublesome for apologists of Israel.
The only way they can attempt to excuse and justify their treatment of the Palestinians is by repeatedly lying through their fucking teeth.

EdsonNascimento

Byrnzie said:

Aafke said:

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

The only 'tactic' I use is sticking to the facts.
Although I understand why facts are troublesome for apologists of Israel.
The only way they can attempt to excuse and justify their treatment of the Palestinians is by repeatedly lying through their fucking teeth.

Yep. Everything you say and site is fact. Everything anyone that doesn't agree with your world view says or sites is propaganda.

Glad that's cleared up for everyone.

dignin

EdsonNascimento said:

Byrnzie said:

Aafke said:

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

The only 'tactic' I use is sticking to the facts.
Although I understand why facts are troublesome for apologists of Israel.
The only way they can attempt to excuse and justify their treatment of the Palestinians is by repeatedly lying through their fucking teeth.

Yep. Everything you say and site is fact. Everything anyone that doesn't agree with your world view says or sites is propaganda.

Glad that's cleared up for everyone.

Hard to argue with the facts. If you have facts to counter you are more than welcome to. The pro-Israel camp seems to be clouded in speculation. Mostly to suit their narrative.

benjs

EdsonNascimento said:

Byrnzie said:

Aafke said:

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

The only 'tactic' I use is sticking to the facts.
Although I understand why facts are troublesome for apologists of Israel.
The only way they can attempt to excuse and justify their treatment of the Palestinians is by repeatedly lying through their fucking teeth.

Yep. Everything you say and site is fact. Everything anyone that doesn't agree with your world view says or sites is propaganda.

Glad that's cleared up for everyone.

You know what? If you're so offended by the things which Byrnzie says to you - and you are so certain that they are bullying or belittling remarks, then let his remarks be the last on a train of thought, refrain from posting historical facts without posting evidence, and refute the posts that you find to be untrue with facts with evidence of your own. Byrnzie may be curt in his demeanour, but he is mostly fair.

dignin

benjs said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Byrnzie said:

Aafke said:

Well Byrnzie, in my humble opinion, you use exactly the same tactics as the Israeli media in the article.

The only 'tactic' I use is sticking to the facts.
Although I understand why facts are troublesome for apologists of Israel.
The only way they can attempt to excuse and justify their treatment of the Palestinians is by repeatedly lying through their fucking teeth.

Yep. Everything you say and site is fact. Everything anyone that doesn't agree with your world view says or sites is propaganda.

Glad that's cleared up for everyone.

You know what? If you're so offended by the things which Byrnzie says to you - and you are so certain that they are bullying or belittling remarks, then let his remarks be the last on a train of thought, refrain from posting historical facts without posting evidence, and refute the posts that you find to be untrue with facts with evidence of your own. Byrnzie may be curt in his demeanour, but he is mostly fair.

Well said.

Aafke

Why does it have to be so bloody black and white with you guys? It's your way or the propaganda, misinformation of the pro Israeli site. As I stated before, don't be so hasty to dismiss, people because they sing a slightly different song than you want to hear, because while doing so, your corner, will be very lonely pretty soon...