Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

dancinacrossthewater

Supporting Hamas in this conflict is destructive, pure and simple. They're not interested in legitimate statehood for Palestine. They just fit neatly into "heroes of resistance" narratives for people watching from across the world.

dancinacrossthewater

If some of the people posting in thread were supporting Palestine by condemning Hamas and advocating for the return to government of Fatah, I'd be more inclined to give them some credit.

rr165892

dancinacrossthewater said:

Supporting Hamas in this conflict is destructive, pure and simple. They're not interested in legitimate statehood for Palestine. They just fit neatly into "heroes of resistance" narratives for people watching from across the world.

This!!!

fuck

dancinacrossthewater said:

Do you really think there is no evidence that Hamas is using civilans as shields? The author is critical of Israel on multiple levels ( see point 7). He is trying to disengage readers from the either/or mentality that's pervaded this discussion. It's difficult to refute that the most vicious condemnations of Israel are tinged by anti-semitism. Can you address the author's first point?

It's not about what I think. It's about the factual record, and the records according to the human rights and UN organizations show that there has been no evidence of Hamas using human shields, but rather quite the opposite: that Israel has been using them. To refute some of these points, I will link (once again) to this piece, which has already been posted before but you have clearly and quite conveniently neglected to look at it (or many of the other links posted in this thread): http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

The author is not trying to disengage people from an either/or mentality, he is seeking to disengage them from reality. Unfortunately the reality on the ground is that Israel is engaged in an illegal occupation and is oppressing another population to apartheid-like proportions. It is only engaging in ethnic cleansing to continue their expansion and hopes of a "Jewish state". Palestinians are not trying to do the same thing on the other side. They are not trying to kick out the Jews, even though the majority of them are settler colonialists. They are simply asking for equal rights, an end to the occupation, and for the refugees living in camps outside of the land to be able to return home. And somehow, you try to say "both sides are to blame".

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Do you really think there is no evidence that Hamas is using civilans as shields? The author is critical of Israel on multiple levels ( see point 7). He is trying to disengage readers from the either/or mentality that's pervaded this discussion. It's difficult to refute that the most vicious condemnations of Israel are tinged by anti-semitism. Can you address the author's first point?

What difference does it make if he thinks Hamas uses human shields, or doesn't use them?

Is there any evidence, from countless investigations by all of the Worlds major human rights organizations, that Hamas has ever used human shields? No, there isn't.
Have the Israeli's used human shields? Is there any evidence that they've done so? Yes, there is, on countless occasions: http://www.alternet.org/story/141078/amnesty:_israel_used_children_as_human_shields_in_gaza

Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza
Amnesty accused Israeli forces of using children as human shields and conducting wanton attacks on civilians.
July 2, 2009

Amnesty on Thursday accused Israeli forces of war crimes in Gaza, saying they used children as human shields and conducted wanton attacks on civilians, in a report rejected as "unbalanced" by Israel.

The London-based human rights group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence to support Israeli claims that Gaza's Islamist rulers used civilians as human shields during Israel's massive 22-day offensive.

It reiterated its call for international arms embargoes against Israel and Hamas, and called for "criminal investigations in national courts" under universal jurisdiction wherever there is sufficient evidence of war crimes.

"Much of the destruction was wanton and resulted from direct attacks on civilian objects," Amnesty said in a report on the December-January war on the Gaza Strip.

In numerous cases, Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, "effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk," the group said.

"Intentionally using civilians to shield a military objective, often referred to as using 'human shields' is a war crime," Amnesty said.

....

fuck

dancinacrossthewater said:

Supporting Hamas in this conflict is destructive, pure and simple. They're not interested in legitimate statehood for Palestine. They just fit neatly into "heroes of resistance" narratives for people watching from across the world.

It's ironic that on one hand you seem to hint that people "across the world" should not play a role by supporting resistance (nevermind that you equate Hamas with resistance in general), but on the other hand you seem to consider yourself important enough to the point where "if people were more willing to support Fatah and condemn Hamas," you would be "more inclined to give them some credit". Oh dancinacrossthewater, how I beg you for your support! Please, tell me, what else should Palestinians do to win your inclinations? Shall we renounce any right to resist an illegal occupation, even though this right is inshrined in international law, such as in the fourth geneva convention? Shall we continue to be massacred by the thousands, by the tax dollars and support of Western governments, without doing anything in return, so that we can have your all important support? Shall we stand up and say, "You know, it's fairly obvious that none of you know much about Hamas, except what you get from western media sources (such as the false claim that they use human shields), but we condemn them because you don't like them! Please come to our rescue, O dancinacrossthewater!"

How about people in the West do the Palestinians a favor, if you truly sympathize with their struggle: 1) acknowledge that the root of this conflict is the illegal Israeli occupation, and that any resistance to it, including from Hamas is simply a by-product of this illegal occupation that only exists due to the support of your governments; 2) stay the fuck out of the business of Palestinians and their methods of resistance. International law grants Palestinians the right to resist the illegal and brutal occupation. Quit telling the oppressed how to resist. As this article rightly points out, the alternative to resistance is ANTI-resistance (the article also talks a good deal about your beloved Fatah: http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/18666/the-palestinian-resistance-and-its-enemies). Instead, once you acknowledge number 1 and 2, then you can focus your efforts on 3) demand an end to the illegal Israeli occupation, which is all Palestinian resistance movements have called for. They have not called for killing the Jews, they have not called for Israelis to leave the land. They have simply called for the 3 rights that I mentioned before. If violence against Israelis continues after Israel grants Palestinians equal rights, ends the occupation, and allows Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes, then I will be the first to condemn it. Until then, let's stick to the facts on the ground, the historical record, and how to address the root problem, rather than equivocate between oppressor and oppressed.

bluegrace

I wonder, what is the solution to this Palestina/Israel conflict? A two-state nation? Hopefully they will both be able to live in peace.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Supporting Hamas in this conflict is destructive, pure and simple. They're not interested in legitimate statehood for Palestine.

No, of course they're not.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders
Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 Borders
by Eyder Peralta
May 17, 2011

Hamas' Deputy Foreign Minister Ghazi Hamad told NPR's Robert Siegel that the Islamic political party has accepted a two-state solution that respects the 1967 borders.

Robert asked Hamad in a very straight forward way: "If Israel were to accept a two-state solution in which Palestine would be in Gaza and the West Bank and have its capital in Jerusalem, is that an acceptable aim that Hamas is striving for or is that in and of itself insufficient because there would still be a state of Israel?"

"Look, we said, frankly, we accept the state and '67 borders. This was mentioned many times and we repeated many times," said Hamad.

Meshal says Hamas accepts a two-state solution
Hamas political leader in Damascus reportedly authorized King Abdullah of Jordan to convey his acceptance of two states for two peoples, based on the 1967 borders, to U.S. President Barack Obama.
Jan. 30, 2013

Khaled Meshal, head of the Syrian branch of Hamas’ political bureau, has reportedly accepted the idea of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and has authorized King Abdullah of Jordan to convey the message on his behalf to U.S. President Barack Obama. His new stance marks a dramatic shift in Hamas' position on the long-standing conflict.

The revelation comes according to a report in the Saudi newspaper "Al-Sharq," which cited Jordanian sources, who said Meshal accepted the idea during a meeting this week with the Jordanian king...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047

PA official says Hamas accepted two-state solution
Wednesday's reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas recognizes the existence of Israel and is based on the two-state model, says Jibril Rajoub.
Apr. 24, 2014

The reconciliation agreement between the two major Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, which was signed in Gaza on Wednesday, is based on a two-state solution and recognizes the State of Israel, senior Fatah official Jibril Rajoub said on Thursday.

"The reconciliation that we achieved will be implemented according to the program of Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmuod Abbas] which recognizes the state of Israel," Rajoub said, in an interview with Army Radio's Good Morning Israel program.

He added that the two-state solution envisages "a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and the state of Israel with its capital in West Jerusalem." Hamas leader Ismail Haniya "is obliged to uphold Abu Mazen's policy," Rajoub stressed.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

If some of the people posting in thread were supporting Palestine by condemning Hamas and advocating for the return to government of Fatah, I'd be more inclined to give them some credit.

Yeah, of course you would, because you want a Palestinian party who will cower to Israel's demands, instead of insisting that Israel comply with it's obligations under international law.

Byrnzie

Shit's about to get real for Israel and the U.S:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/05/palestinian-leaders-icc-israel-war-crimes


Palestinian leaders poised to join ICC in order to pursue Israel for war crimes
Diplomats expect plan to join international criminal court and call for investigation to be used as bargaining chip in Cairo talks

Julian Borger and Ian Black
The Guardian, Tuesday 5 August 2014

Palestinian political leaders are poised to join the International Criminal Court (ICC) with the aim of putting Israel in the dock on war crimes charges, officials said today.

"Israel has left us with no other option," Riad Malki, the Palestinian foreign minister, told reporters after meeting ICC officials in The Hague to discuss the implications of signing the Rome Statute. It would make the Palestinian state a member of the court with the authority to call for an investigation into possible war crimes and crimes against humanity.

...ICC investigators would consequently assess war crimes allegations against all parties to the conflict, including Hamas and PIJ. Jawan Jabarin, a Palestinian human rights activist who has been pushing for ICC membership, said that both groups were prepared to sign because they believed Israel would be the primary target of any investigation.

"I saw the draft letter which they took to Cairo. They are waiting for signature from Hamas and Islamic Jihad and they will get it. We got confirmation. They said they will do it," Jabarin, the director general of Al-Haq, said. He predicted it would happen in "weeks or even quicker".

"They [Hamas and PIJ] believe the size of the crime that the Israelis committed is huge. They feel like they didn't commit crimes, but they say: 'Even if some of our leaders go to court, we will do that. It is part of our responsibility to the victims.' So it is a matter of time, but we are very, very close."

...If Abbas proceeds with accession to the ICC, it would represent an act of defiance of western capitals, which have put pressure on him not to join, arguing it would be an impediment to peace negotiations. The UK's foreign office minister, Sayeeda Warsi, resigned on Tuesday because of the government's policy on Gaza, specifically citing her disagreement with British pressure on the Palestinians not to pursue justice through the ICC.

Amnesty International's secretary general, Salil Shetty, has urged the Palestinian leadership to shrug off western pressure.

"They must make good on their words and seize this chance to move towards accountability for countless victims of human rights violations by submitting a declaration accepting the jurisdiction of the ICC without further delay," Shetty said.

dancinacrossthewater

Believe it or not, I hear you guys and your anger, and believe it or not I hope for a peaceful two state solution. But when you post material that's absolutely, completely one-sided and refuse to criticize Hamas when it cynically manipulates and endangers its own citizens, you're undermining reasonable discourse. Worst of all is the blinders-on type criticism of Israel when 133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year. It's like people are shocked and appalled by Palestinian deaths as long as they can pin them on Israel. Brutal.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year.

No they weren't. Stop making shit up.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-6458-The-forgotten-plight-of-Palestinians-amid-the-war-in-Syria#.U-JIfUgyyTs
Aside from the 1,500 reportedly killed Palestinians and thousands more wounded, the majority of the refugees are once again on the run, although in more perilous circumstances.

According to a statement by UNRWA, "Of the 540,000 Palestine refugees registered with UNRWA in Syria, about 270,000 are displaced in the country and an estimated 80,000 have fled. 51,000 have reached Lebanon, 11,000 have identified themselves in Jordan, 5,000 are in Egypt and smaller numbers have reached Gaza, Turkey and farther afield."

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Believe it or not, I hear you guys and your anger, and believe it or not I hope for a peaceful two state solution. But when you post material that's absolutely, completely one-sided and refuse to criticize Hamas when it cynically manipulates and endangers its own citizens, you're undermining reasonable discourse. Worst of all is the blinders-on type criticism of Israel when 133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year. It's like people are shocked and appalled by Palestinian deaths as long as they can pin them on Israel. Brutal.

Again, for the 1000 time, ones a fucken civil war and the other is an occupation. If u can't tell the difference, maybe u should stay out of the conversation. And I've been to syria 3 times in the last 5 years minus when all this shit started.

dancinacrossthewater

Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that Israel has killed more Palestinians in the past year than Syria?

Again, I am critical of Israel in lots of ways. But the refusal of people like you to give voice to what's happening to Palestinians outside Gaza makes me wonder if you're more invested in Palestinian well-being or discrediting Israel. The way you engage with what's happening in the Middle East is simplistic and not helpful for anyone, least of all the people you purport to support.

The Juggler

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that Israel has killed more Palestinians in the past year than Syria?

Again, I am critical of Israel in lots of ways. But the refusal of people like you to give voice to what's happening to Palestinians outside Gaza makes me wonder if you're more invested in Palestinian well-being or discrediting Israel. The way you engage with what's happening in the Middle East is simplistic and not helpful for anyone, least of all the people you purport to support.

What I believe is irrelevant. Are you still going to pretend that 133,000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria over the past year?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/9944-over-2000-palestinians-have-died-in-syrian-war
At least 2,072 Palestinians have died since the outbreak of the Syrian revolution to February 22, the Working Group for the Palestinians in Syria said.

The Safa news agency reported a statement released by the group on Sunday as saying that the majority of the victims fell in the Yarmouk refugee camp where 840 Palestinians perished. Deraa refugee camp saw the death of 163 Palestinians.

The group's statement counted nearly twenty reasons for the causalities. Most were caused by bombings others by clashes, assassinations and the siege. The group's statistics and information team said it will issue a detailed report on Palestinian victims in Syria by early March.

Meanwhile the Yarmouk refugee camp has witnessed a relative state of calm amid promises to increase reconciliation efforts and distribution of aid inside the camp.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3706/palestinians-syria-killed-injured-displaced
According to Palestinian sources, more than 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria, most in recent months, by both the rebels and the Syrian army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Foreigners_killed
Palestinians [killed since 2011] = 2,275

brianlux

badbrains said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Believe it or not, I hear you guys and your anger, and believe it or not I hope for a peaceful two state solution. But when you post material that's absolutely, completely one-sided and refuse to criticize Hamas when it cynically manipulates and endangers its own citizens, you're undermining reasonable discourse. Worst of all is the blinders-on type criticism of Israel when 133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year. It's like people are shocked and appalled by Palestinian deaths as long as they can pin them on Israel. Brutal.

Again, for the 1000 time, ones a fucken civil war and the other is an occupation. If u can't tell the difference, maybe u should stay out of the conversation. And I've been to syria 3 times in the last 5 years minus when all this shit started.

This isn't the first time someone here has told another they should stay out of the conversation if the have a differing opinion. Is that really the kind of forum you want here? Sounds a bit fascist to me.

badbrains

https://twitter.com/mercredi72/status/497050192454385664

badbrains

brianlux said:

badbrains said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Believe it or not, I hear you guys and your anger, and believe it or not I hope for a peaceful two state solution. But when you post material that's absolutely, completely one-sided and refuse to criticize Hamas when it cynically manipulates and endangers its own citizens, you're undermining reasonable discourse. Worst of all is the blinders-on type criticism of Israel when 133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year. It's like people are shocked and appalled by Palestinian deaths as long as they can pin them on Israel. Brutal.

Again, for the 1000 time, ones a fucken civil war and the other is an occupation. If u can't tell the difference, maybe u should stay out of the conversation. And I've been to syria 3 times in the last 5 years minus when all this shit started.

This isn't the first time someone hear has told another they should stay out of the conversation if the have a differing opinion. Is that really the kind of forum you want here? Sounds a bit fascist to me.

She or he can continue to post whatever they want. I could care less if they want to look like idiots when they post shit. Come on brian, really bro, 180,000 Palestinians killed in syria? And someone posted a link stating that it's less then 3000. I find it odd that you would respond to my post about her staying out of the conversation but not the blatant lie she posted. My priority is trying to find and share the truth, and if it has me calling someone out as a liar or telling someone to stay out of the conversation if they dnt know what they are talking about, so be it. I'm sorry I'm not the type to just say peace this peace that. That shit isn't working web tho it's a nice jester.

dancinacrossthewater

badbrains said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Believe it or not, I hear you guys and your anger, and believe it or not I hope for a peaceful two state solution. But when you post material that's absolutely, completely one-sided and refuse to criticize Hamas when it cynically manipulates and endangers its own citizens, you're undermining reasonable discourse. Worst of all is the blinders-on type criticism of Israel when 133,000 Palestinians were massacred in Yarmouk, Syria over the past year. It's like people are shocked and appalled by Palestinian deaths as long as they can pin them on Israel. Brutal.

Again, for the 1000 time, ones a fucken civil war and the other is an occupation. If u can't tell the difference, maybe u should stay out of the conversation. And I've been to syria 3 times in the last 5 years minus when all this shit started.

See this is the kind of logic that actually exposes the lack of humanity of the side of people who are more interested in denouncing Israel than looking for a change that saves lives in the region. Because it's a civil war we're supposed to be less concerned even though more people are dying? You guys are full of shit.