Gaza ***GRAPHIC PICS***

badbrains said:

benjs said:

Just a quick deviation... Eid Mubarak to all Muslims on here; may the next event worth celebrating be Peace.

Thanks Ben, appreciate it buddy. From your mouth to gods ears. Does god even have ears? Lol

Last-12-Exit said:

This question is directed at any Israeli or Jewish person who reads this: Do you think that someone who opposes the actions of Israel in Palestine is antisemitic?

Drowned Out said:

benjs said:

By the way, and I think this is an important distinction - a lot of this discussion has to do with trust. I know what you wrote wasn't intentional or delivered with malice, but your statement at the end about my having proven myself reasonable brings up an important notion: many people, very soon, are going to have to inherently trust the people they formerly called their enemies. It's going to be ages (probably generations) until a TRUE peace sweeps the area (ie. the abolishment of hatred itself), but trust will play an integral role.

Kyle, we hung out, had a great time, smoked some weed, and all had fun at an awesome rock concert. Yet because I had posted about a friend making Aliyah (and while I don't remember the details or context of that discussion, I'm assuming all I had posted was that I didn't wish that harm would befall him), it meant that I needed to prove myself just to elevate my status to reasonable over time. If this happens over a discussion on a Pearl Jam forum between two people who don't consider themselves religious (and have hung out and shot the shit together) - what's going to happen when Israelis and Palestinians are free to roam between each others' territories?

This is where social media can have tremendous impact: there's ripe opportunity for Israelis and Palestinians to talk privately, learn that they are in fact all human beings, and that they both love life and hate death. This may be an idealist notion, but I think this is necessary for an everlasting and, as you said, just Peace. And this is where absurd nationalist/Zionist propaganda needs to cease, as well as what ever equivalents exist within Palestinian regions. "Make love, not war" may seem like a bullshit hippie expression, but the truth is, a government must defend its people. All of us in the world must do our part, as the notion that "without Israel's stronghold over Gaza and the West Bank, Israel will not be safe" is a prevalent viewpoint amongst Israelis, and this is one that we, Citizens of Earth, can help deal with. If the Israeli government wants to claim that Israel's presence in Palestinian regions is for the safety of its people, we should do our part to strip them of that one *quasi-legitimate* reason for being there. This is a way we can change things. This is a way we ARE changing things. And, guess what, if Israelis and Palestinians want to hold hands everywhere across the world and Israel's government then says "I forbid it, we won't lower our walls" - just TRY and keep the world silent. Peace speaks louder than weapons.

You're right, there will need to be trust, a lot of turning the other cheek, and cooler heads prevailing on both sides.

As for the dynamic between us that I brought up publicly (and maybe shouldnt have) - ya man, I thought you were a great guy, enjoyed your company and hope to meet you again someday. The Aliyah comment was, if I remember correctly, even more casual than your guess: someone posted about a family member moving, and you remarked about it always being a shock when someone you know actually does it. But you have to keep in mind: we never touched on politics or religion at all when we met. How many times has someone you thought you knew ended up dropping your jaw when they started talking religion or politics? It's one thing to have differing opinions, approaches, and solutions, and still respect one another. But when someone's views are extreme, it is a bit more difficult. And it happens pretty often - esp with topics related to the Middle East and Islam. I will never forget watching the statue of saddam toppled in Iraq, while sitting in a bar with friends...and a guy id been an acquaintance with for years (a friend, but not a close one), says 'look at all those stupid pakis throwing shoes at it', followed by an islamophobic rant and a bunch of racial slurs...that was enough to change my opinion of a guy I'd hung out with many times..
When you started posting in these threads, I had no idea if you would be a Sivan, or if your demeanour in person would translate to the logical thinking and reasonable politics you've displayed here. It sure as hell didn't with my friend who doesn't know the difference between Iraq and Pakistan. yes, maybe I could have given you more benefit of doubt based on the afternoon we spent together, and I see that's what you're getting at in saying we need to trust potential enemies when it comes to resolving the conflict. But that trust is built on words and actions that relate to the conflict, not just casual time talking pearl jam and buds. For a while, the only words or actions I had to go by in relation to the occupation and your religious beliefs, was a reference to aliyah...and because immigration to Israel, the right of return, freedom of movement etc are core issues to the conflict, it made me more curious about your views. I chose to observe instead of engaging you directly, in order to avoid a potentially awkward conversation (maybe a mistake). I never felt that you needed to 'prove yourself'.....but at the same time, I feel pretty strongly about the occupation, and if your views had been as extreme as some, it could have pretty easily affected the impression I had of you from the day we spent together. If I was going on anti-semetic rants on the board, I'm sure you'd reconsider your opinion of me as well...I hope you understand what I'm saying.