Every single day that this offensive continues, Israel's reputation is further eroded. I have never heard this many people in my day to day conversations express emotions from concern to disgust to outright anger over what Israel is doing.
i quit reading about this for the last week. i caught up a bit today. it is worse than i thought it was.
i started posting about this on facebook friday night and have lost a bunch of friends over it. my post was initially stating that "we can give all of these billions of dollars to israel and millions to bomb iraq again, but we can't get fucking water for americans living in and around detroit."
someone derailed it and started talking about how israel needs every penny of that money. so i started posting facts. i got called mel gibson, and got called an anti semite and a racist, when i made no racist statements. i pointed out facts about israel breaking more cease fires, i talked about the settlements, zionism, international law, i talked about 242, the stealing of land, all of it. then this jewish guy was calling all palestinians pigs and dogs and roaches and saying that the arab countries do not even want to help the palestinians because they are such lowlife roaches, and that the palestinians should be wiped off the map, and all this other stuff. a friend chimed in and took the guy to task too. next thing i know i woke up the next day and all of that dude's posts were deleted and he not only unfriended me, but blocked me.
this is what happens when you calmly state facts to someone who is an israel apologist. he made himself look like an asshole all over facebook, and the only way he could save face is to delete all of his posts..
i guess what i am trying to say is i can leave here for a week, and this story still follows me and i can't escape it. i hope there can be not just peace, but justice for the palestinians.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
i quit reading about this for the last week. i caught up a bit today. it is worse than i thought it was.
i started posting about this on facebook friday night and have lost a bunch of friends over it. my post was initially stating that "we can give all of these billions of dollars to israel and millions to bomb iraq again, but we can't get fucking water for americans living in and around detroit."
someone derailed it and started talking about how israel needs every penny of that money. so i started posting facts. i got called mel gibson, and got called an anti semite and a racist, when i made no racist statements. i pointed out facts about israel breaking more cease fires, i talked about the settlements, zionism, international law, i talked about 242, the stealing of land, all of it. then this jewish guy was calling all palestinians pigs and dogs and roaches and saying that the arab countries do not even want to help the palestinians because they are such lowlife roaches, and that the palestinians should be wiped off the map, and all this other stuff. a friend chimed in and took the guy to task too. next thing i know i woke up the next day and all of that dude's posts were deleted and he not only unfriended me, but blocked me.
this is what happens when you calmly state facts to someone who is an israel apologist. he made himself look like an asshole all over facebook, and the only way he could save face is to delete all of his posts..
i guess what i am trying to say is i can leave here for a week, and this story still follows me and i can't escape it. i hope there can be not just peace, but justice for the palestinians.
I'm really sorry this happened to you... I'm finding the same thing. My own mother basically ignores me when I talk about the injustices in the Palestinian regions too. As for my friends from my Birthright trip - well, let's just put it this way: there's nothing I hate more than someone telling me what I should think without presenting the logic behind it (or ignoring logic when they're proven wrong), and as a result, I've lost some friends too. The mental gymnastics people go through to ignore the truths they don't want to hear leave me completely speechless.
Meanwhile, I do think that if people put half the energy they put into "Am Yisrael Chai" and "Free, Free Palestine" chants on the street (meaningless tribal mantras which lock you into a 'side' and providing you with an 'enemy') into actually informing themselves on the complexities of the situation the way I'm proud to say we have been here - I think we'd be a hell of a lot closer to justice than the way things are currently, where rallies turn into shouting matches, and people leave no more educated about the problems than when they showed up to protest the first place.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
i quit reading about this for the last week. i caught up a bit today. it is worse than i thought it was.
i started posting about this on facebook friday night and have lost a bunch of friends over it. my post was initially stating that "we can give all of these billions of dollars to israel and millions to bomb iraq again, but we can't get fucking water for americans living in and around detroit."
someone derailed it and started talking about how israel needs every penny of that money. so i started posting facts. i got called mel gibson, and got called an anti semite and a racist, when i made no racist statements. i pointed out facts about israel breaking more cease fires, i talked about the settlements, zionism, international law, i talked about 242, the stealing of land, all of it. then this jewish guy was calling all palestinians pigs and dogs and roaches and saying that the arab countries do not even want to help the palestinians because they are such lowlife roaches, and that the palestinians should be wiped off the map, and all this other stuff. a friend chimed in and took the guy to task too. next thing i know i woke up the next day and all of that dude's posts were deleted and he not only unfriended me, but blocked me.
this is what happens when you calmly state facts to someone who is an israel apologist. he made himself look like an asshole all over facebook, and the only way he could save face is to delete all of his posts..
i guess what i am trying to say is i can leave here for a week, and this story still follows me and i can't escape it. i hope there can be not just peace, but justice for the palestinians.
I'm really sorry this happened to you... I'm finding the same thing. My own mother basically ignores me when I talk about the injustices in the Palestinian regions too. As for my friends from my Birthright trip - well, let's just put it this way: there's nothing I hate more than someone telling me what I should think without presenting the logic behind it (or ignoring logic when they're proven wrong), and as a result, I've lost some friends too. The mental gymnastics people go through to ignore the truths they don't want to hear leave me completely speechless.
Meanwhile, I do think that if people put half the energy they put into "Am Yisrael Chai" and "Free, Free Palestine" chants on the street (meaningless tribal mantras which lock you into a 'side' and providing you with an 'enemy') into actually informing themselves on the complexities of the situation the way I'm proud to say we have been here - I think we'd be a hell of a lot closer to justice than the way things are currently, where rallies turn into shouting matches, and people leave no more educated about the problems than when they showed up to protest the first place.
thanks, i hate that you lost friends over this too.
in the end, i think it will end up being a good thing for me. i do not want to associate with someone who can throw flat out racist statements around so flippantly. i have known this guy for 31 years. now i am not friends with him. i don't hate the guy, buy if he can say what he said with a straight face, i do not need him in my life. i am physically disgusted when i think about that exchange. going back and reading that thread makes it look i am just posting and posting and posting to myself because his comments are missing now. at least i typed his name in several comments, so if a random reads it they will know i was actually debating with another person instead of just posting just to post.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry, or maybe she was threatening their safety so they restrained her. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
=D>
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry, or maybe she was threatening their safety so they restrained her. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
a friend chimed in and took the guy to task too. next thing i know i woke up the next day and all of that dude's posts were deleted and he not only unfriended me, but blocked me.
My pleasure.
You don't need friends like that.
I came very close to deleting someone on my FB over it too. I've known him a long time, but he spouts a lot of utter shite on this issue, and he's ended up making a fool of himself - with my help - on a couple of occasions now. But he's actually not as bad as that 'friend' of yours.
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
=D>
:-q
BB, Neither of us were implying that there is not some messed up stuff going on in gaza, there most definitely is. He was just stating that many of the pics supposedly coming from there have been proven to be from other places/years and/or blatently out of context. Wanting to know the full story behind any picture is something we should all be in favour of, no matter what your thoughts on the conflict are. I'll give you an example. A while back, someone posted here a pic of a female soldier smiling and giving a thumbs up next to a dead body. A truly horrible image. That person claimed that it was an israeli soldier. When i pointed out that she was not wearing an IDF uniform, and that the URL clearly stated that the pic was from the american detention center, abu-grave, the original poster said that it did not matter because israeli soldiers do the same thing. I say that it does matter. Graphic images, like the ones you post here are very effective at swaying a person towards a certain way of thinking. We owe it to ourselves, and to the people here that are less informed on the conflict, to make sure that all of what we post, especially visual images, has been confirmed. Just my 2 cents.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I need some context before judging these photos. It bothers me that people will look at photos with no context at all given and apply absolute meaning to them. Not necessarily saying the implied message here isn't true, but it's always a bad idea to assume that. There a lot of out of context photos being used as propaganda in this conflict. I am interested in the truth alone.
I can look at these pics and see that 2 of them are not in gaza. Not hard to see that. I seriously give up with you. You simply amaze me with your responses. You can't see a fucken grandma being attacked by an idf dog? Are u seriously blind. And dnt preach peace to me in here cuz this IS the GAZA thread. To suggest these pics are some fucken form of propaganda is unreal. You seriously need to look in the mirror. What if that was your fucken grandma? What if that was your sister being choked, what if that was your mom being attacked by those settler thugs? Wouldn't be questioning those pics then ey? Wow, wow, wow, your response was truly amazing. Propaganda she said, what the fuck u think those women were attacked for? Seriously, what could they have done to provoke that. I can't wait to hear your response.....
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
Wow, aggressive, lol. You really don't have me pegged at all. You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
=D>
:-q
BB, Neither of us were implying that there is not some messed up stuff going on in gaza, there most definitely is. He was just stating that many of the pics supposedly coming from there have been proven to be from other places/years and/or blatently out of context. Wanting to know the full story behind any picture is something we should all be in favour of, no matter what your thoughts on the conflict are. I'll give you an example. A while back, someone posted here a pic of a female soldier smiling and giving a thumbs up next to a dead body. A truly horrible image. That person claimed that it was an israeli soldier. When i pointed out that she was not wearing an IDF uniform, and that the URL clearly stated that the pic was from the american detention center, abu-grave, the original poster said that it did not matter because israeli soldiers do the same thing. I say that it does matter. Graphic images, like the ones you post here are very effective at swaying a person towards a certain way of thinking. We owe it to ourselves, and to the people here that are less informed on the conflict, to make sure that all of what we post, especially visual images, has been confirmed. Just my 2 cents.
I 100% agree. It's why I like to make my message with words: the search for context is much more feasible than with pictures, thanks to Photoshop and just plain anonymity in posting. With a picture, there's only one person able to give the context (the person who took it), and with words, many can.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I 100% agree. It's why I like to make my message with words: the search for context is much more feasible than with pictures, thanks to Photoshop and just plain anonymity in posting. With a picture, there's only one person able to give the context (the person who took it), and with words, many can.
I don't. If somebody can prove that a picture has been faked, or used out of context, then they should provide evidence as such. Photos are powerful tools used to portray what words can't always manage. Often times, when considering past events, our minds are drawn instantly to iconic images, and rarely to the written word - the images of Vietnamese civilians running down a country road in the wake of a napalm attack, the image of the burning Iraqi soldier climbing out of his armoured vehicle on the road to Basra after the U.S had bombed the retreating convoy, or the image of the lone 'tank man' halting a column of tanks outside Tienanmen Square. These are the things that people remember.
Photos are powerful, and necessary. Keep posting them.
I 100% agree. It's why I like to make my message with words: the search for context is much more feasible than with pictures, thanks to Photoshop and just plain anonymity in posting. With a picture, there's only one person able to give the context (the person who took it), and with words, many can.
I don't. If somebody can prove that a picture has been faked, or used out of context, then they should provide evidence as such. Photos are powerful tools used to portray what words can't always manage. Often times, when considering past events, our minds are drawn instantly to iconic images, and rarely to the written word - the images of Vietnamese civilians running down a country road in the wake of a napalm attack, the image of the burning Iraqi soldier climbing out of his armoured vehicle on the road to Basra after the U.S had bombed the retreating convoy, or the image of the lone 'tank man' halting a column of tanks outside Tienanmen Square. These are the things that people remember.
Photos are powerful, and necessary. Keep posting them.
I agree that photos are important and that they should be posted. Badbrains images have been a constant, and useful, reminder of the tragedy and loss occurring in Gaza throughout. However, we live in an easily manipulated media age, and we all are well aware that there is propaganda all around. A healthy dose of skepticism can also be useful. The challenge for someone to prove an image is fake is one that can easily be turned around with a call to prove it is real. Neither challenge is necessary. Whether or not this image is real or that image is faked, we all know what is happening in Gaza.
I 100% agree. It's why I like to make my message with words: the search for context is much more feasible than with pictures, thanks to Photoshop and just plain anonymity in posting. With a picture, there's only one person able to give the context (the person who took it), and with words, many can.
I don't. If somebody can prove that a picture has been faked, or used out of context, then they should provide evidence as such. Photos are powerful tools used to portray what words can't always manage. Often times, when considering past events, our minds are drawn instantly to iconic images, and rarely to the written word - the images of Vietnamese civilians running down a country road in the wake of a napalm attack, the image of the burning Iraqi soldier climbing out of his armoured vehicle on the road to Basra after the U.S had bombed the retreating convoy, or the image of the lone 'tank man' halting a column of tanks outside Tienanmen Square. These are the things that people remember.
Photos are powerful, and necessary. Keep posting them.
Fair enough Byrnzie... I can see the merit in that.
I guess I just think about these threads in particular: while the pictures keep me aware of how crucial it is to give attention to this cause, it's the dialogue that has provided me with much of my education. In terms of the things I'll remember, you're definitely right that the pictures will linger more than the words.
I retract my statement about the merit of posting photos in general, but still wish these came accompanied with even a sentence or two to provide the context and prevent ambiguity - a photo without context, in my mind, is akin to the dissemination of half-truths which, coincidentally, you and I both know that Israel is guilty of. The best way to reveal truths is to provide irrefutable facts based on sound premises and context. That's why I'm pretty sure we've come to the same conclusion about the atrocities in Israel and the Palestinian regions when you know I started with opinions miles away from where you were come from. If I thought you were omitting critical parts of the story, I would question you as a source, but you haven't, so I don't.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I 100% agree. It's why I like to make my message with words: the search for context is much more feasible than with pictures, thanks to Photoshop and just plain anonymity in posting. With a picture, there's only one person able to give the context (the person who took it), and with words, many can.
I don't. If somebody can prove that a picture has been faked, or used out of context, then they should provide evidence as such. Photos are powerful tools used to portray what words can't always manage. Often times, when considering past events, our minds are drawn instantly to iconic images, and rarely to the written word - the images of Vietnamese civilians running down a country road in the wake of a napalm attack, the image of the burning Iraqi soldier climbing out of his armoured vehicle on the road to Basra after the U.S had bombed the retreating convoy, or the image of the lone 'tank man' halting a column of tanks outside Tienanmen Square. These are the things that people remember.
Photos are powerful, and necessary. Keep posting them.
I'm surprised you say this, Byrnzie. You have consistently spoken to the need for verification- in the form of links- when people post written ideas on this forum. How is it any different for photos? If one person offers a written piece that damns something without providing the source... it should be dismissed; yet, if someone offers a photo lacking the same standards for legitimacy... it is encouraged and should be accepted without question?
So, with regards to what you have said here... I agree and disagree.
I agree with the part that speaks to the value of photos for the impact of their imagery. For example, the photos in this thread have done an incredible job of having me develop empathy for the Palestinian people and great disdain for the Israeli policy makers.
I disagree, though, that it should be up to the viewer to research the picture to determine its authenticity. It's obviously highly unethical and scandalous to use illegitimate photos to further one's cause. If it has been determined that photos have been 'tricked up' to promote an issue... then that issue becomes cloudy for me and at a minimum... credibility is lost.
* I don't doubt the photos that I have seen in this thread and I don't think PJ Soul has either. Speaking to the need for legitimacy in photos and offering context as well are not the same as denying the atrocities in Gaza.
I usually post pics that have an article accompanied with them so that the viewer can make up their own judgement. I mite add a sentence here or there but try to leave it up to the viewer. And when I post pics, I try to post from sources that an be checked. I'm not trying to promote propaganda or anything like that, I just want to show images of what's happening in GAza in 2014. Yup, it's 2014. I've even gone as so far as to try not to high jack the anti-war thread in porch. Just want to show what's happening with pics and not words. Hope it makes some sense.
I retract my statement about the merit of posting photos in general, but still wish these came accompanied with even a sentence or two to provide the context and prevent ambiguity - a photo without context, in my mind, is akin to the dissemination of half-truths which, coincidentally, you and I both know that Israel is guilty of.
True, there should nearly always be some accompanying explanation - though that's not always needed.
I usually post pics that have an article accompanied with them so that the viewer can make up their own judgement. I mite add a sentence here or there but try to leave it up to the viewer. And when I post pics, I try to post from sources that an be checked. I'm not trying to promote propaganda or anything like that, I just want to show images of what's happening in GAza in 2014. Yup, it's 2014. I've even gone as so far as to try not to high jack the anti-war thread in porch. Just want to show what's happening with pics and not words. Hope it makes some sense.
It makes perfect sense. I totally get your passion and outrage in this issue.
As I said, I don't think anybody is suggesting the photos are not legitimate. I think some have said that photos are better when offered with some context- this is a reasonable thing to suggest and should not be construed as anything counter-productive to the Palestinian cause.
After giving it some thought, i can say with 100% certainty that at least two of these four pictures have nothing to do with this conflict (i also highly doubt that the other two pics have anything to do with this conflict, but can not prove it with 100% certainty). Here is my proof: 1) the picture of a girl in a headlock - the soldier is wearing a uniform of the israeli border guard. No such soldiers were deployed in gaza during this conflict. 2) the picture of the woman being approached by jews - there have not been any civilian jews in gaza since 2005.
Edit: after looking closely, i can prove that another one of these pictures was not taken during this conflict: 3) the picture of the woman being lifted by a group of soldiers - at least two of the soldiers are wearing winter coats. There is NO WAY that a soldier would be wearing a winter coat during the israeli summer. Trust me on this.
This was my point about context. There are absolutely terrible things happening in gaza. To post pictures that have nothing to do with the conflict is horrible misdirection (and if you ask me, hurts your cause...).
Post edited by rafie on
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
449 Children
246 Women
87 Elderly
9,840 Injured:
3,004 Children
1,907 Women
359 Elder
Psychological effects?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
i started posting about this on facebook friday night and have lost a bunch of friends over it. my post was initially stating that "we can give all of these billions of dollars to israel and millions to bomb iraq again, but we can't get fucking water for americans living in and around detroit."
someone derailed it and started talking about how israel needs every penny of that money. so i started posting facts. i got called mel gibson, and got called an anti semite and a racist, when i made no racist statements. i pointed out facts about israel breaking more cease fires, i talked about the settlements, zionism, international law, i talked about 242, the stealing of land, all of it. then this jewish guy was calling all palestinians pigs and dogs and roaches and saying that the arab countries do not even want to help the palestinians because they are such lowlife roaches, and that the palestinians should be wiped off the map, and all this other stuff. a friend chimed in and took the guy to task too. next thing i know i woke up the next day and all of that dude's posts were deleted and he not only unfriended me, but blocked me.
this is what happens when you calmly state facts to someone who is an israel apologist. he made himself look like an asshole all over facebook, and the only way he could save face is to delete all of his posts..
i guess what i am trying to say is i can leave here for a week, and this story still follows me and i can't escape it. i hope there can be not just peace, but justice for the palestinians.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Meanwhile, I do think that if people put half the energy they put into "Am Yisrael Chai" and "Free, Free Palestine" chants on the street (meaningless tribal mantras which lock you into a 'side' and providing you with an 'enemy') into actually informing themselves on the complexities of the situation the way I'm proud to say we have been here - I think we'd be a hell of a lot closer to justice than the way things are currently, where rallies turn into shouting matches, and people leave no more educated about the problems than when they showed up to protest the first place.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Edit- it's dumb ass responses that are getting the "informers" pissed and angry.
in the end, i think it will end up being a good thing for me. i do not want to associate with someone who can throw flat out racist statements around so flippantly. i have known this guy for 31 years. now i am not friends with him. i don't hate the guy, buy if he can say what he said with a straight face, i do not need him in my life. i am physically disgusted when i think about that exchange. going back and reading that thread makes it look i am just posting and posting and posting to myself because his comments are missing now. at least i typed his name in several comments, so if a random reads it they will know i was actually debating with another person instead of just posting just to post.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You actually have no clue what the context is in those photos. My only point is that context is everything when it comes to photos. The story could be VERY different from what it appears to be, even in these photos. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it could be. This is why still photos don't carry much weight with me. Video, on the other hand, provides context. All I'm really saying is that I don't trust the media. Social or otherwise. I need more than a photo with no context. You should too. Just believing shit without question when you lack context is a naïve thing to do. This point has nothing to do with my stance on Gaza (which you don't even seem to be aware of at all... you seem to think I'm trying to make a point about Gaza, but I'm not. I'm making a point about being wary of media).
I.e. that one with the woman against the wall. Well, it looks like she's being abused by some Jews. But how do you know they're not trying g to help her or comfort her? Maybe not. But maybe. The dog one... why is it attacking her? Maybe it's unjust force. Or maybe she did something to provoke it. The girl in a choke hold. Yeah, maybe she's stuck in a choke hold. Totally possible, unfortunately. Then again, maybe that arm was there for only a second while they were trying to get her out of harms way in a hurry, or maybe she was threatening their safety so they restrained her. Can you prove to me 100% otherwise? No. Maybe your standards are low when it comes to the truth,lol and real facts, but mine aren't. And btw, I am against atrocities committed against the Palestinians. You seem to think otherwise, but I don't know why.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
You don't need friends like that.
I came very close to deleting someone on my FB over it too. I've known him a long time, but he spouts a lot of utter shite on this issue, and he's ended up making a fool of himself - with my help - on a couple of occasions now.
But he's actually not as bad as that 'friend' of yours.
http://jurist.org/forum/2014/08/marjorie-cohn-israel-crimes.php
I'll give you an example. A while back, someone posted here a pic of a female soldier smiling and giving a thumbs up next to a dead body. A truly horrible image. That person claimed that it was an israeli soldier. When i pointed out that she was not wearing an IDF uniform, and that the URL clearly stated that the pic was from the american detention center, abu-grave, the original poster said that it did not matter because israeli soldiers do the same thing. I say that it does matter. Graphic images, like the ones you post here are very effective at swaying a person towards a certain way of thinking. We owe it to ourselves, and to the people here that are less informed on the conflict, to make sure that all of what we post, especially visual images, has been confirmed.
Just my 2 cents.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Photos are powerful tools used to portray what words can't always manage. Often times, when considering past events, our minds are drawn instantly to iconic images, and rarely to the written word - the images of Vietnamese civilians running down a country road in the wake of a napalm attack, the image of the burning Iraqi soldier climbing out of his armoured vehicle on the road to Basra after the U.S had bombed the retreating convoy, or the image of the lone 'tank man' halting a column of tanks outside Tienanmen Square. These are the things that people remember.
Photos are powerful, and necessary. Keep posting them.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I guess I just think about these threads in particular: while the pictures keep me aware of how crucial it is to give attention to this cause, it's the dialogue that has provided me with much of my education. In terms of the things I'll remember, you're definitely right that the pictures will linger more than the words.
I retract my statement about the merit of posting photos in general, but still wish these came accompanied with even a sentence or two to provide the context and prevent ambiguity - a photo without context, in my mind, is akin to the dissemination of half-truths which, coincidentally, you and I both know that Israel is guilty of. The best way to reveal truths is to provide irrefutable facts based on sound premises and context. That's why I'm pretty sure we've come to the same conclusion about the atrocities in Israel and the Palestinian regions when you know I started with opinions miles away from where you were come from. If I thought you were omitting critical parts of the story, I would question you as a source, but you haven't, so I don't.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
So, with regards to what you have said here... I agree and disagree.
I agree with the part that speaks to the value of photos for the impact of their imagery. For example, the photos in this thread have done an incredible job of having me develop empathy for the Palestinian people and great disdain for the Israeli policy makers.
I disagree, though, that it should be up to the viewer to research the picture to determine its authenticity. It's obviously highly unethical and scandalous to use illegitimate photos to further one's cause. If it has been determined that photos have been 'tricked up' to promote an issue... then that issue becomes cloudy for me and at a minimum... credibility is lost.
* I don't doubt the photos that I have seen in this thread and I don't think PJ Soul has either. Speaking to the need for legitimacy in photos and offering context as well are not the same as denying the atrocities in Gaza.
As I said, I don't think anybody is suggesting the photos are not legitimate. I think some have said that photos are better when offered with some context- this is a reasonable thing to suggest and should not be construed as anything counter-productive to the Palestinian cause.
2) the picture of the woman being approached by jews - there have not been any civilian jews in gaza since 2005.
Edit: after looking closely, i can prove that another one of these pictures was not taken during this conflict: 3) the picture of the woman being lifted by a group of soldiers - at least two of the soldiers are wearing winter coats. There is NO WAY that a soldier would be wearing a winter coat during the israeli summer. Trust me on this.
This was my point about context. There are absolutely terrible things happening in gaza. To post pictures that have nothing to do with the conflict is horrible misdirection (and if you ask me, hurts your cause...).
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin