Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism
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I agree with you, but when you want to sit their and refer to me as uneducated and possibly just older than 10 years old, I will correct you and tell you my background. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm uneducated and maybe 10 years old.Byrnzie said:
I also have a degree, but I don't base my life's 'education' on that. And there are many people in this World smarter and/or more knowledgeable than the both of us who've never set foot inside a university.mattsl1983 said:
Not a need to brag, but you keep making a point of how I'm not educated. A pe is after you get your degree as an engineer, and you work under one for 4 years and pass some intensive tests. You then get qualified as a Professional Engineer. So it's not really the same as just having your degree. Now you what a PE is.
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O.k, well I appreciate the pm's, and the change of tone. I'm glad we're not spitting bullets at each other now.
You made some pretty strong claims re: Palestine/Israel in this thread, and so I jumped all over them. That shit is like a red flag to a bull with me.
No hard feelings.
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Nooooooo!
This was so entertaining and now you guys are behaving civil to each other.
In all seriousness, there's potential for some meaningful dialogue if you guys could release each other's throats and have it!)
"My brain's a good brain!"0 -
i want to know when the israeli government offered land for peace as well... if this has happened, what are they still fighting about?? instead of offering land, they are stealing it and building settlements on it.
if israel in fact offered land for peace, why are the vast, vast majority of countries accusing israel of being in the wrong instead of the palestinians??"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Seriously? Land for peace is the principle that has been the foundation of every peace negotiation since the start of the Oslo process 20 years ago. They're still fighting because every negotiation has broken down before a final accord has been reached. The most recent land for peace offer that got somewhat close to a deal (I believe) was the offer made by Olmert when he was Prime Minister in 2008. You should be able to find details on that offer pretty easily if you google "olmert peace plan." As for the vast majority of countries, my understanding is that they reject the legality of the settlements but not of the military occupation per se, so long as it is understood as temporary pending a final peace accord. In other words they reject acts that would tend to make the occupation permanent but otherwise accept the legitimacy of Israel acting as the ruling power until a final peace accord is reached pursuant to which the territories would become an independent Palestinian state.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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It may have been the foundation of every so-called 'peace negotiation' since Oslo 2000, but as Oslo 2000 demonstrated, the Israeli's were simply interested in using the negotiations as opportunities to seize more land - carving up the West Bank into a series of separate Apartheid-style Bantustans - while disregarding what they were entitled to under international law. The fact that settlement construction tripled after Oslo is testament to that fact.yosi said:Seriously? Land for peace is the principle that has been the foundation of every peace negotiation since the start of the Oslo process 20 years ago. They're still fighting because every negotiation has broken down before a final accord has been reached. The most recent land for peace offer that got somewhat close to a deal (I believe) was the offer made by Olmert when he was Prime Minister in 2008. You should be able to find details on that offer pretty easily if you google "olmert peace plan." As for the vast majority of countries, my understanding is that they reject the legality of the settlements but not of the military occupation per se, so long as it is understood as temporary pending a final peace accord. In other words they reject acts that would tend to make the occupation permanent but otherwise accept the legitimacy of Israel acting as the ruling power until a final peace accord is reached pursuant to which the territories would become an independent Palestinian state.
As for Israeli intransigence, and it's insistence on stealing more land and building more illegal settlements:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam
'Given the vast power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians – not to mention the vast preponderance of diplomatic support enjoyed by Israel from precisely those countries that one would have expected to compensate diplomatically for the military imbalance – nothing will change for the better without the US, the EU and other international actors finally facing up to what have long been the fundamental impediments to peace.
These impediments include the assumption, implicit in Israel’s occupation policy, that if no peace agreement is reached, the ‘default setting’ of UN Security Council Resolution 242 is the indefinite continuation of Israel’s occupation. If this reading were true, the resolution would actually be inviting an occupying power that wishes to retain its adversary’s territory to do so simply by means of avoiding peace talks – which is exactly what Israel has been doing. In fact,the introductory statement to Resolution 242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war, implying that if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante: that, logically, is 242’s default setting. Had there been a sincere intention on Israel’s part to withdraw from the territories, surely forty years should have been more than enough time in which to reach an agreement.'
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In his monologue with Amos Oz, the Butcher of Beirut [Ariel Sharon] spoke openly, telling Amos Oz:
“I personally don’t want to be any better than Khomeini or Brezhnev or Ghadafi or Assad or Mrs. Thatcher, or even Harry Truman who killed half a million Japanese with two fine bombs. I only want to be smarter than they are, quicker and more efficient, not better or more beautiful than they are. Tell me, do the baddies of this world have a bad time? If anyone tries to touch them, the evil men cut his hands and legs off. They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don’t suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear me instead of feeling sorry for me. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear my madness instead of admiring my nobility. Thank God for that. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered - just one! That we might go wild and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East! If anything would happen to your child, God forbid, you would talk like I do. Let them be aware in Washington, Moscow, Damascus and China that if one of our ambassadors is shot, or even a consul or the most junior embassy official, we might start World War Three just like that!”
“Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don’t care. And I don’t mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. Then you can spruce up your Jewish conscience and enter the respectable club of civilised nations, nations that are large and healthy. What your lot don’t understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.”
Amos Oz
Israeli daily Davar, Dec.17, 1982
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News OnlinePost edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Reading Ariel Sharon's comments helps me to better understand where Michael Neumann was coming from here:
In February 2009, Neumann and his brother Osha Neumann asked the Israeli president to remove their grandmother’s name from the Yad Vashem because of the 2008-2009 Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip. Neumann wrote that
'I do not believe that the Jewish people, in whose name you [i.e the Israeli president] have committed so many crimes with such outrageous complacency, can ever rid itself of the shame you have brought upon us. Nazi propaganda, for all its calumnies, never disgraced and corrupted the Jews; you have succeeded in this...you blacken our names not only by your acts, but by the lies, the coy evasions, the smirking arrogance and the infantile self-righteousness with which you embroider our history...You will never pay for your crimes and you will continue to preen yourself, to bask in your illusions of moral ascendancy.'0 -
Can we at least agree to not present opinion as fact. Neither you nor I know for a fact what the intentions of Israel's leaders were when they made their various peace offers. I think they were made largely in good faith, you do not. Perhaps I am right, perhaps you are right, or perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. But stop with this bullshit where you state your opinion of the facts as if it is the undeniable truth and then ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with you.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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My opinion has nothing to do with it. Settlement construction continued apace during the so-called Oslo peace process, and settlement construction tripled in the years following those so-called 'peace talks'. This has nothing to do with opinion. It's a fact.yosi said:Can we at least agree to not present opinion as fact. Neither you nor I know for a fact what the intentions of Israel's leaders were when they made their various peace offers. I think they were made largely in good faith, you do not. Perhaps I am right, perhaps you are right, or perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. But stop with this bullshit where you state your opinion of the facts as if it is the undeniable truth and then ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with you.
And what was presented at Camp David? A carve-up of the West Bank into a series of disconnected Apartheid-style Bantustans. Again, this is a fact that has nothing to do with me.
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The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam
Henry Siegman
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam
'...The Middle East peace process may well be the most spectacular deception in modern diplomatic history. Since the failed Camp David summit of 2000, and actually well before it, Israel’s interest in a peace process – other than for the purpose of obtaining Palestinian and international acceptance of the status quo – has been a fiction that has served primarily to provide cover for its systematic confiscation of Palestinian land and an occupation whose goal, according to the former IDF chief of staff Moshe Ya’alon, is ‘to sear deep into the consciousness of Palestinians that they are a defeated people’. In his reluctant embrace of the Oslo Accords, and his distaste for the settlers, Yitzhak Rabin may have been the exception to this, but even he did not entertain a return of Palestinian territory beyond the so-called Allon Plan, which allowed Israel to retain the Jordan Valley and other parts of the West Bank.
Anyone familiar with Israel’s relentless confiscations of Palestinian territory – based on a plan devised, overseen and implemented by Ariel Sharon – knows that the objective of its settlement enterprise in the West Bank has been largely achieved. Gaza, the evacuation of whose settlements was so naively hailed by the international community as the heroic achievement of a man newly committed to an honourable peace with the Palestinians, was intended to serve as the first in a series of Palestinian bantustans. Gaza’s situation shows us what these bantustans will look like if their residents do not behave as Israel wants.
Israel’s disingenuous commitment to a peace process and a two-state solution is precisely what has made possible its open-ended occupation and dismemberment of Palestinian territory. And the Quartet – with the EU, the UN secretary general and Russia obediently following Washington’s lead – has collaborated with and provided cover for this deception by accepting Israel’s claim that it has been unable to find a deserving Palestinian peace partner.'0 -
Israel is a racist rogue state that should be subjected to the harshest international condemnation and sanctions.
It's insistence on continuing to flout international law, and to routinely and brazenly commit war crimes against a largely unarmed civilian population, while stealing land and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, should render it a pariah in the eyes of the whole of the civilized World.
The one thing allowing the current state of affairs to continue, as it's done for the past 45 years, is U.S support.
The U.S needs to quit pretending to be an honest broker in this conflict and back out of it, allowing a neutral country to mediate affairs, and to finally allow the implementation of U.N 242, which has the support of the whole World.
For the past 45 years the U.S has been using it's veto power at the U.N to block the international consensus, allowing Israel continue it's race war against the Arabs.
This needs to stop.
Apartheid South Africa was defeated by world opinion and sanctions - despite U.S and Israeli support of the Apartheid regime to the very end - so the Israeli occupation can also be brought to an end.
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http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=157893
That doesn't look like Bantustans to me.
As to settlement construction, yes, I do not deny that, but you are stating that fact and then implicitly jumping to the conclusion that it proves the bad faith of the Israeli peace offer. In fact, you have absolutely no idea of what would have happened had the Palestinians accepted the offer because they didn't accept it. Your assumption that the offer was made in bad faith does not, therefore, hold water.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
God, you and this "race war" bullshit. The conflict has nothing to do with racism. You're like a kid trying to fit the square peg in the circular hole. You want so badly for Israel to be just like South Africa that you just insist that the conflict is all about racism when it is very plainly about competing nationalism. And please don't dig up some racist quotes and pretend that they prove your point. They prove nothing more then that there are racists in Israel, not that the state as a whole is motivated by some sort of genocidal racism.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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That map tells me nothing. When was it produced, and by who?yosi said:http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=157893
That doesn't look like Bantustans to me.
Well, if we look at Camp David, then the reason they didn't accept it is because it was unworkable, and because the Israeli's sought to fragment the Palestinians territory into a series of separate enclaves - Apartheid style bantustans. That's why they didn't accept it. The Israeli's proposals had nothing whatsoever to do with what they were entitled to under international law.yosi said:As to settlement construction, yes, I do not deny that, but you are stating that fact and then implicitly jumping to the conclusion that it proves the bad faith of the Israeli peace offer. In fact, you have absolutely no idea of what would have happened had the Palestinians accepted the offer because they didn't accept it. Your assumption that the offer was made in bad faith does not, therefore, hold water.
In the meantime, the Israeli's have shown how serious they are about peace by stealing more land, and by building more illegal settlements. But according to you we should ignore this reality and concentrate on 'what might have been's instead, and implicitly lay the blame for the continuing occupation at the feet of those being occupied.
Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Actually I think Israel is a lot worse than Apartheid South Africa. And Zionist ideology is inherently racist.yosi said:God, you and this "race war" bullshit. The conflict has nothing to do with racism. You're like a kid trying to fit the square peg in the circular hole. You want so badly for Israel to be just like South Africa that you just insist that the conflict is all about racism when it is very plainly about competing nationalism. And please don't dig up some racist quotes and pretend that they prove your point. They prove nothing more then that there are racists in Israel, not that the state as a whole is motivated by some sort of genocidal racism.
Why does Israel not permit the Palestinians right of return? Because Israel is allegedly a 'Jewish state' - a state run by, and for Jews.
It's a racist state.
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Except Israel doesn't see the occupation as temporary. It sees it as permanent, as expressed by it's leaders down the years, and as evidenced by the 'facts on the ground'. Israel has had 45 years to show it's commitment to peace and withdraw from the occupied territories, but instead it's done the opposite - more land theft, and more illegal settlements. And what conclusion do you draw from that? You pretend that this ongoing land-grab and ethnic cleansing is a product of Palestinian intransigence at the negotiating table. Again, it's not difficult to understand Michael Neumann's words: "..you blacken our names not only by your acts, but by the lies, the coy evasions, the smirking arrogance and the infantile self-righteousness with which you embroider our history...You will never pay for your crimes and you will continue to preen yourself, to bask in your illusions of moral ascendancy."yosi said:As for the vast majority of countries, my understanding is that they reject the legality of the settlements but not of the military occupation per se, so long as it is understood as temporary pending a final peace accord. In other words they reject acts that would tend to make the occupation permanent but otherwise accept the legitimacy of Israel acting as the ruling power until a final peace accord is reached pursuant to which the territories would become an independent Palestinian state.
http://www.btselem.org/publications/47_year_long_temporary_occupation
Contrary to their express purpose, the Oslo Accords have actually enabled Israel to cement its control over the entire West Bank, use it for its own purposes and influence significant aspects of the daily lives of its Palestinian residents.
How? Control of the West Bank was to be split for an interim period, planned to last five years until a permanent agreement was signed: about 40% of the West Bank were defined as Areas A and B and handed over to the Palestinian Authority for its full or partial control. This land was mostly built-up Palestinian areas and already home to the vast majority of the Palestinian population. Israel retained full control of the remaining 60% of the West Bank, Area C, which included all settlement areas.
Israel treats Area C as if its sole purpose is to serve its needs alone, completely ignoring the temporary nature of the agreement. Israel has used this territory to expand the settlements, and their population has more than tripled since the Accords were signed. At the same time, it does not consider itself obligated in any way to the estimated 200,000-300,000 Palestinians living in this area. Citing a variety of grounds, Israel denies virtually all construction and development by Palestinians in Area C. Israel has declared vast areas in the West Bank military zones and state land, where building is prohibited. In the few remaining areas, the Civil Administration refrains from drafting master plans that reflect the needs of the population. When, having no other option, Palestinians build without permits, the Civil Administration threatens to demolish the homes, and in some cases, delivers on this threat.
One of this policy’s objectives is to drive Palestinians out of Area C, at least in part to facilitate its future annexation to Israel. The policy takes on a particularly violent slant in the way Israel treats dozens of semi-nomadic communities scattered throughout Area C, expelling or attempting to expel residents of these communities from their homes and local setting.
...Israel also continues to exercise individual control over each and every resident of the West Bank, despite their ostensible status as subject to the Palestinian Authority. In order for Palestinians to get from one city to another or from one area to another, they must pass through areas that are under full Israeli control, meaning that they must come into contact with Israeli security forces...
“Provisional military occupation”?
...Over the years, Israel has gradually created two separate regimes in the West Bank, dependent on national identity: one for settlers and the other for Palestinians. The settlers enjoy all the rights granted to citizens of a democratic country. In contrast, Palestinians live under a harsh military rule which primarily serves the interests of Israel and the settlers. Palestinians are subject to military orders that restrict them and impinge on their rights. Likewise, they are unable to participate in the election of the Israeli officials serving in bodies responsible for making decisions applicable to them.
Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Interesting. Shows the huge divide that exists between the lunatic settlers and the state of Israel. A divide so wide that you'd be hard pressed to pass a sheet of paper through it:
http://www.yesh-din.org/postview.asp?postid=268
97.4 Percent of Investigative Files relating to Damage to Palestinians’ Olive Trees are Closed due to Police Failings
10/21/2013
The human rights organization Yesh Din today publishes updated data highlighting the failure of the Samaria & Judea (SJ) [West Bank] District Police to investigate incidents involving the cutting down, torching, vandalization, and theft of olive trees and other fruits trees belonging to Palestinians in the West Bank. The data are published against the background of the current olive harvest, and after numerous incidents of the vandalization of trees have been reported throughout the West Bank in recent weeks.
The updated figures show that the Israel Police has overwhelmingly failed to investigate the incidents and prosecute offenders. In recent years, the vandalization of olive trees and other fruit trees has become one of the symbols of the occupation. The data are presented on a map, revealing areas of friction in which a particularly large number of incidents involving the vandalization of trees has been reported. The army and the police are well aware of these areas, which form the focus of criminal activities by Israeli civilians against Palestinians and their property throughout the year. The Palestinian village that has suffered the largest number of attacks on trees is Burin. Yesterday a vicious attack on olive harvesters and volunteers from Rabbis for Human Rights by masked men armed with batons was again documented in the village. Two Palestinians and two Israelis were injured in the attack.
From 2005 through June 2013, Yesh Din documented 211 incidents of deliberate damage to fruit trees in the West Bank following which the police opened investigative files. Of the 211 investigative files opened by the S&J District Police, only four ended in indictments; 183 files were closed in circumstances testifying to investigative failure – no less than 94.7 percent of the files in which processing has been completed and the outcome is known to Yesh Din. The failure rate of the S&J District Police in investigating attacks on trees is particularly high, even by comparison to the general failure rate for investigations by the S&J District Police into offenses by Israelis against Palestinians and their property in the West Bank, which stands at 84 percent. The figures show that with regard to attacks on Palestinians’ trees, the ability of the S&J District Police to locate and prosecute offenders is particularly low and almost non-existent.
The vandalization of olive trees and other trees belonging to Palestinians constitutes a serious attack on their property and directly damages their wellbeing, since many Palestinian residents in the West Bank rely on agriculture – and particularly the olive industry – as a significant source of income. This industry provides income and employment for some 100,000 households.
Noah Cohen of Yesh Din’s Research Department comments on the figures: “As the statistics show, and as was again proven only yesterday, the areas of friction are well known. Nevertheless the IDF leaves the Palestinian residents in these areas exposed to repeated violent attacks. The implication of the ongoing failure of the S&J District Police to investigate and prosecute persons who vandalize trees is equally apparent: The complete abnegation of responsibility, and the abandonment of these areas to the control of violent and extremist elements.”
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if the occupation was temporary, why would they feel the constant need to expand settlements and construction??
seems like an awful waste of time and money for something that will be abandoned at a later date.
these are permanent settlements. it is obvious to anybody who has ever read anything about them."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Forgive me, but I don't agree that it was unworkable. You are simply throwing around this wild assertion about "Bantustans" without providing any evidence to support the claim. I've provided a map (it's from a Jerusalem Post article describing Olmert's offer and is based off of Palestinian accounts of the terms of the proposed deal) that pretty clearly makes utter hash of that claim. Now, there may well have been good reasons for the Palestinian leadership to have not agreed to the deal, but the notion that Israel has never made viable land for peace offers is simply false, as is your utterly unsubstantiated claim that Israel has only ever offered deals that would create "bantustans." Again, you're stating your opinion as if it were fact, and in this case you're doing so in face of clearly contrary facts.Byrnzie said:
That map tells me nothing. When was it produced, and by who?yosi said:http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=157893
That doesn't look like Bantustans to me.
Well, if we look at Camp David, then the reason they didn't accept it is because it was unworkable, and because the Israeli's sought to fragment the Palestinians territory into a series of separate enclaves - Apartheid style bantustans. That's why they didn't accept it. The Israeli's proposals had nothing whatsoever to do with what they were entitled to under international law.yosi said:As to settlement construction, yes, I do not deny that, but you are stating that fact and then implicitly jumping to the conclusion that it proves the bad faith of the Israeli peace offer. In fact, you have absolutely no idea of what would have happened had the Palestinians accepted the offer because they didn't accept it. Your assumption that the offer was made in bad faith does not, therefore, hold water.
In the meantime, the Israeli's have shown how serious they are about peace by stealing more land, and by building more illegal settlements. But according to you we should ignore this reality and concentrate on 'what might have been's instead, and implicitly lay the blame for the continuing occupation at the feet of those being occupied.
As for blame, I think there's more than enough to go around. Certainly Israel deserves a great deal of blame for the settlements and for the many abuses of the occupation. I don't think it deserves blame for the occupation per se (distinct from the settlements and abusive treatment of Palestinians under Israeli rule). Israel conquered the West Bank from Jordan, which never had an internationally recognized claim to the territory. There was no Palestinian state at the time to hand the territory back to. In that situation I think it was reasonable for Israel to retain control of the territories for its own security until a transfer of sovereignty could be completed via a final peace accord and the creation of a Palestinian state. I certainly think that Israel should have done a lot more since 1967 to help foster the creation of that Palestinian state, but that doesn't make the occupation as such immoral.
All that said, yes, I do think the Palestinian leadership deserves their share of the blame for the continuing occupation. Arafat flatly rejected viable peace deals from Ehud Barak not once but twice (Camp David and Taba), and Abu Mazen failed to respond to Olmert's offer. The Palestinians know that insisting on the refugee's right of return is a deal breaker but refuse to drop that demand, thereby blocking any possible deal (I should note that I'm not making any claim either way about the legitimacy of the right of return, simply stating the fact that all sides understand that it is something that Israel can never accept for purely demographic reasons). Beyond that, the Palestinian embrace of violence over the decades has done nothing but harm their cause and make Israel ever more distrustful of Palestinian intentions once they achieve their own state. So yes, I think they deserve a share of the blame as well. Moreover, I think your absolute refusal to treat the Palestinians as subjective actors in any way responsible for their actions is a prime example of the soft racism of low expectations.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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