OPEN LETTER TO THE 10 CLUB & TIM BIERMAN TO CHANGE GA LINE

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Comments

  • Lost In OhioLost In Ohio Posts: 4,966
    edited November 2013
    ckravitz wrote:
    Suziemay wrote:
    If you're not shooting to be on the rail and just want to arrive whenever without worrying about where you end up in the pit, don't bother with the list. It only really matters for the first 40-50 people who arrive in line.

    Actually, this is a very important but overlooked fact.

    How about a system where 50 GA tickets are granted a 5 minute early admission. Done. I don't know what the mechanism is to hand out those 50 tickets, whether it is a line, a higher priced ticket, or a lottery, but it seems then you pretty much eliminate the line. I mean people aren't waiting in a line all day to be number 275 and 4 rows back, are they? If not, then like Suziemay said, it only matters for the first 50 or so anyway.

    Easy solution and I'll keep it simple...many ways to make it more complex, but here we go:

    Say a GA pit ticket is $82. You can "bid" above and beyond the $82 for early admission. The X number of people with the highest bids (whatever those bids are) go in approx 10 minutes before doors open after meeting at a pre-determined location near the venue. That money all gets donated to things like Wishlist Foundation for the local beneficiary, Surfrider, or whatever else the band feels like donating to.

    $122 dollars to be on the rail with $40 of those being a donation to charity? That sounds like a winning situation.

    People would bitch, but they'll bitch about anything.



    Alternatively, bid as much as you'd like. The highest bidder (and his buddy) enters first. The next-highest goes in second. If you only bid $2 extra, you go in early, but way in the back, since your bid wasn't much.

    Yes, people will see these ideas of "buying your way up front" but if it helps keep things civil...
    Post edited by Lost In Ohio on
    Presidential Advice from President-Elect Mike McCready: "Are you getting something out of this all encompassing trip?"
  • acharding wrote:
    the way I am used to GA working is that you get in line....and you STAY in line. You don't show up at 10am, write your name in a book and then leave for the rest of the day and jump in front of people who have been waiting for hours right before the doors open.

    That's what I saw happening in OKC and THAT'S what I have a problem with. The notebook is a fan run thing...not an official 10club thing. Not everyone knew about it. This is how it is unfair, and I think this is what upset most people.

    I chose to go to the preparty and line up about two hours before the show. That was my choice. Still, I was pretty happy with my place in the line....until a ton of people showed up right before the doors and jumped in line. They didn't wait like the people that were there at 5am. They put their name in a book and then left...which I have never seen done for GA before.

    I don't blame tenclub...I don't blame those who waiting all day to get the rail....I don't really blame anyone. It was just a bit of a downer but now I know better for next time.
    Live and learn...

    Agree...the notebook should be a sort of "proof" to say "I'm there" BUT...AT THE SAME TIME...you should have to wait in line to earn your spot up close.

    Wait around all day...If you need to run and grab some food or the bathroom or whatever, use the list as a written backup of proof to say "this is my spot."
    Presidential Advice from President-Elect Mike McCready: "Are you getting something out of this all encompassing trip?"
  • MD190661 wrote:
    I am curious how crowded it is at the back of the pit during the show. When I saw Springsteen last year from the pit, I was at the back and had an awesome view and more room than I knew what to do with. Is the the case with the PJ pit? I could care less about being on the rail and will likely show up at 7:30. Any help with this would be awesome.

    Thanks!

    I saw a photo from either Pittsburgh or Buffalo. Sure, it was pre-show, but people were sitting on the floor with tons of room.
    Presidential Advice from President-Elect Mike McCready: "Are you getting something out of this all encompassing trip?"
  • Go to Pearl Jam show = fun no matter what
    www.cluthelee.com
  • mfc2006mfc2006 PDX--->KCPosts: 32,051
    Go to Pearl Jam show = fun no matter what

    :D :D :D

    Fuck. YES!
    I LOVE MUSIC.
    www.cluthelee.com
    www.cluthe.com
  • Lets do this Haiku style. Ready?
    www.cluthelee.com
  • At the Pearl Jam show
    Fan gets into building
    Heart goes boom
    www.cluthelee.com
  • aus_suzaus_suz Posts: 9,348
    I'd like to see this tried at a Slayer or Motorhead concert. "Hey man, I'm in front of you. I signed the notebook." Yeah that'd go over great.

    Best post ever!! lol
  • aus_suzaus_suz Posts: 9,348
    shortstack wrote:


    the filmore in detroit tried to pull this shit for the qotsa show this past september

    i tweeted qotsa and they put a stop to it right away. love them!

    that's pretty cool
  • mfc2006mfc2006 PDX--->KCPosts: 32,051
    At the Pearl Jam show
    Fan gets into building
    Heart goes boom

    :lol:
    I LOVE MUSIC.
    www.cluthelee.com
    www.cluthe.com
  • NadjaZNadjaZ Posts: 33
    Dear Pearl Jam Fans,

    I have a huge request,
    we are a man and woman from Germany/Berlin, Pearl Jam Fans since 20 years and can win a travel to the concert in Seattle with our local radio station. For this we need your help as much as possible.
    Can you vote for us to be the winner at

    http://www.rockland.fm/start.php?uservoting

    just click for Nadja and Thorsten and see our marry proposal on the vinyl as love letters.

    Till saturday morning in Germany the winner will be announced in the radio. So long we need much much more votings to have a chance!!!

    I have no Idea how to contact as many fans as possible.

    So if you all can please send this to more fans, because they know how great this wiuld be to meet Pearl Jam.

    Please vote for the two of us as often as you have the time for (you can vote ever and ever again)
    thank you so much for this support,
    Nadja
  • No more notebook and list.
    "Mark it 20, Dude."
  • NadjaZ wrote:
    Dear Pearl Jam Fans,

    I have a huge request,
    we are a man and woman from Germany/Berlin, Pearl Jam Fans since 20 years and can win a travel to the concert in Seattle with our local radio station. For this we need your help as much as possible.
    Can you vote for us to be the winner TODAY and very often!!! at

    http://www.rockland.fm/start.php?uservoting

    just click for Nadja and Thorsten and see our marry proposal on the vinyl as love letters.

    Till thursday evening in Germany the winner will be announced in the radio. So long we need much much more votings to have a chance!!!

    I have no Idea how to contact as many fans as possible.

    So if you all can please send this to more fans, because they know how great this would be to meet Pearl Jam.

    Please vote for the two of us as often as you have the time for (you can vote ever and ever again)
    thank you so much for this support,
    Nadja


    Voted for you. Jubel!
    1/95 DC 7/95 Chicago Tor Tol Cha 96 AlpV I II Chi St L KC 98 BSB I II 99 Phx Vegas Fresno SBern 00 BSB I II 01 (met ed) Vegas Phx Fargo St. Paul Chicago Alpine V Indy Col Virg Phi I II MSG I II (got on DVD!) 03 Calg 05 Clev Vegas LA I II SBar 06 Lon Dus Cop Nij Bel 07 Phi I II DC MSG I II Har BOS I II 08, LA3/4, SD '09, MSG I II '10, Missoula, London ONT, Wrigley, SD, LA1/2, Portland. Wrigley '16 I and II. 
  • dustinparduedustinpardue Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,819
    aus_suz wrote:
    I'd like to see this tried at a Slayer or Motorhead concert. "Hey man, I'm in front of you. I signed the notebook." Yeah that'd go over great.

    Best post ever!! lol

    Seriously haha. This whole GA debacle has gotten waaaaaay over complicated. Ok GA means general admission, which means you can wander around wherever you want. What pearl jam fans have elected to do is severely "nerd up" and over complicate a nice idea like GA. At what point or at whose discretion did this whole list, numbered hand and saved spots g et decided upon? If you are going to go to that much trouble to circumvent the whole idea of GA, then just have seats for Christs sake. So essentially fans are lining up, wasting their entire day in a fucking line, to get a virtual "seat." If we are going to do this we have to refrain for using the term GA and be like "yay I got a line/list ticket!" I personally didn't win the lottery for anything including GA but bet your ass I would have taken offense if someone had to told me to move in the GA area because that was their assigned spot. :lol:
    In conclusion, just bring back the seats so everyone can avoid all of this crap.
    "All I Ever Knew" available now in print and digital formats at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and iBooks.
  • shortstackshortstack Posts: 2,319
    In conclusion, just bring back the seats so everyone can avoid all of this crap.

    i like the cut of your jib
    did you see me? i saw you.
  • aus_suz wrote:
    I'd like to see this tried at a Slayer or Motorhead concert. "Hey man, I'm in front of you. I signed the notebook." Yeah that'd go over great.

    Best post ever!! lol

    Seriously haha. This whole GA debacle has gotten waaaaaay over complicated. Ok GA means general admission, which means you can wander around wherever you want. What pearl jam fans have elected to do is severely "nerd up" and over complicate a nice idea like GA. At what point or at whose discretion did this whole list, numbered hand and saved spots g et decided upon? If you are going to go to that much trouble to circumvent the whole idea of GA, then just have seats for Christs sake. So essentially fans are lining up, wasting their entire day in a fucking line, to get a virtual "seat." If we are going to do this we have to refrain for using the term GA and be like "yay I got a line/list ticket!" I personally didn't win the lottery for anything including GA but bet your ass I would have taken offense if someone had to told me to move in the GA area because that was their assigned spot. :lol:
    In conclusion, just bring back the seats so everyone can avoid all of this crap.





    Europe.
    "Mark it 20, Dude."
  • aus_suzaus_suz Posts: 9,348
    shortstack wrote:
    In conclusion, just bring back the seats so everyone can avoid all of this crap.

    i like the cut of your jib

    Sounds a good idea to me.
  • aus_suzaus_suz Posts: 9,348
    ckravitz wrote:
    Suziemay wrote:
    If you're not shooting to be on the rail and just want to arrive whenever without worrying about where you end up in the pit, don't bother with the list. It only really matters for the first 40-50 people who arrive in line.

    Actually, this is a very important but overlooked fact.

    How about a system where 50 GA tickets are granted a 5 minute early admission. Done. I don't know what the mechanism is to hand out those 50 tickets, whether it is a line, a higher priced ticket, or a lottery, but it seems then you pretty much eliminate the line. I mean people aren't waiting in a line all day to be number 275 and 4 rows back, are they? If not, then like Suziemay said, it only matters for the first 50 or so anyway.

    Easy solution and I'll keep it simple...many ways to make it more complex, but here we go:

    Say a GA pit ticket is $82. You can "bid" above and beyond the $82 for early admission. The X number of people with the highest bids (whatever those bids are) go in approx 10 minutes before doors open after meeting at a pre-determined location near the venue. That money all gets donated to things like Wishlist Foundation for the local beneficiary, Surfrider, or whatever else the band feels like donating to.

    $122 dollars to be on the rail with $40 of those being a donation to charity? That sounds like a winning situation.

    People would bitch, but they'll bitch about anything.



    Alternatively, bid as much as you'd like. The highest bidder (and his buddy) enters first. The next-highest goes in second. If you only bid $2 extra, you go in early, but way in the back, since your bid wasn't much.

    Yes, people will see these ideas of "buying your way up front" but if it helps keep things civil...

    Sounds way complicated..
    Whoever suggested bringing back the seats was a good idea
  • Edved007Edved007 Milwaukee, WIPosts: 903
    I hate to chime in on this beat up topic….and I'm not going to go back and read all 150 posts now, but I'll still say my little piece as I've been a part of a couple of these lists the last couple of years.

    3 times I got to the venue (Missoula, Philly #1, and OKC) in the early morning about 6-7 o'clock. All three times I was in the first 10 people, and the notebook and numbers on the hand thing was already going so I got mine and sat there. I, like most that far in the front of the line, sat there all day with the exception of basic human needs like the bathroom and getting some food…which is the way it should be. You want to be in front, you get there and you sit your ass there. Of course people are going to hold your spot while you take a piss, get a sandwich, or go buy a poster, but beyond that we all sat there. The issue with this number BS is the people over say 40-50 in line that aren't going to get the rail anyway. The people up front will obviously protect there spots as they have been there all day, the people towards the back, probably through gossip or like a baad game of telephone, show up not knowing, go to the line and do the "is this the GA line?" thing. Someone tells them they need to get a number so, they go to the front, write their name down, get the number on their hand and then wander off until 15 mins before doors open..then they come back and go "but but but I have number 132, I'm supposed to line up here!" I seriously think these types of people think when they get a number they can leave for an hour or 4 hours and then just come line up.

    In closing, the numbers should't be needed at all. Get there early and wait. People near you will hold your spot for you while you do the things you need to do so what's the point of them…. just to keep track if you are number 3 or number 11 to walk in? fine then, but cut it out after 50 or something it just causes all these issues… of course the bottom line is it's not official, just some nice fan usually who volunteers to keep some peace and then it turns into a shit show.
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  • Edved007 wrote:
    I hate to chime in on this beat up topic….and I'm not going to go back and read all 150 posts now, but I'll still say my little piece as I've been a part of a couple of these lists the last couple of years.

    3 times I got to the venue (Missoula, Philly #1, and OKC) in the early morning about 6-7 o'clock. All three times I was in the first 10 people, and the notebook and numbers on the hand thing was already going so I got mine and sat there. I, like most that far in the front of the line, sat there all day with the exception of basic human needs like the bathroom and getting some food…which is the way it should be. You want to be in front, you get there and you sit your ass there. Of course people are going to hold your spot while you take a piss, get a sandwich, or go buy a poster, but beyond that we all sat there. The issue with this number BS is the people over say 40-50 in line that aren't going to get the rail anyway. The people up front will obviously protect there spots as they have been there all day, the people towards the back, probably through gossip or like a baad game of telephone, show up not knowing, go to the line and do the "is this the GA line?" thing. Someone tells them they need to get a number so, they go to the front, write their name down, get the number on their hand and then wander off until 15 mins before doors open..then they come back and go "but but but I have number 132, I'm supposed to line up here!" I seriously think these types of people think when they get a number they can leave for an hour or 4 hours and then just come line up.

    In closing, the numbers should't be needed at all. Get there early and wait. People near you will hold your spot for you while you do the things you need to do so what's the point of them…. just to keep track if you are number 3 or number 11 to walk in? fine then, but cut it out after 50 or something it just causes all these issues… of course the bottom line is it's not official, just some nice fan usually who volunteers to keep some peace and then it turns into a shit show.


    Yes, well put. And I agree. There just shouldn't even be any numbers on hands or lists at all. That's the problem. People put their name down and then abuse the waiting in line. And yes, it's totally not official in the least bit. It becomes a sneaky way to get out of actually waiting. And again, for the thousandth time: no, it's not everyone; yes, there are a lot of fans who wait in an honest way. And it's those honest fans that sometimes get pushed way back in line that I feel bad for.
    1/95 DC 7/95 Chicago Tor Tol Cha 96 AlpV I II Chi St L KC 98 BSB I II 99 Phx Vegas Fresno SBern 00 BSB I II 01 (met ed) Vegas Phx Fargo St. Paul Chicago Alpine V Indy Col Virg Phi I II MSG I II (got on DVD!) 03 Calg 05 Clev Vegas LA I II SBar 06 Lon Dus Cop Nij Bel 07 Phi I II DC MSG I II Har BOS I II 08, LA3/4, SD '09, MSG I II '10, Missoula, London ONT, Wrigley, SD, LA1/2, Portland. Wrigley '16 I and II. 
  • jason_94jason_94 Toledo, OHPosts: 1,872
    Edved007 wrote:
    I hate to chime in on this beat up topic….and I'm not going to go back and read all 150 posts now, but I'll still say my little piece as I've been a part of a couple of these lists the last couple of years.

    In closing, the numbers should't be needed at all. Get there early and wait. People near you will hold your spot for you while you do the things you need to do so what's the point of them…. just to keep track if you are number 3 or number 11 to walk in? fine then, but cut it out after 50 or something it just causes all these issues… of course the bottom line is it's not official, just some nice fan usually who volunteers to keep some peace and then it turns into a shit show.


    Forget the notebook, the list, and the hand written numbers on peoples hands. They are wrong on many levels and can also be easily manipulated. If you want to get something or be somewhere, more power to you. If you want it, go there early, sit there and wait for however long you want and earn it. Of course, people will watch your spot so you can get food, use the restroom, and get some merch.

    If you would rather do the pre-parties or just show up late, that's fine too. It's your choice. Just don't try to concoct some half ass plan or manipulate the situation to try and do both.


    As for those that are say they should bring back the seats, it will happen. This is a short US arena tour. I thought it was a great idea that they brought the GA back and I think it has shown at the shows. The next tour may be mostly amphitheaters and those would be all, or mostly all seats. They could do another arena tour and switch back to seats. Or, dare I say, do shows in smaller theaters. ;) Those would be all seats too.

    There are several venues out there that can't accommodate a GA section so I think that people that think this GA situation is an absolute or an end all be all situation are wrong.


    I apologize for the small rant on this over talked about topic.

    That's just my 2 cents (That are actually worth $37 and some change) 8-)
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  • jason_94 wrote:
    Edved007 wrote:
    I hate to chime in on this beat up topic….and I'm not going to go back and read all 150 posts now, but I'll still say my little piece as I've been a part of a couple of these lists the last couple of years.

    In closing, the numbers should't be needed at all. Get there early and wait. People near you will hold your spot for you while you do the things you need to do so what's the point of them…. just to keep track if you are number 3 or number 11 to walk in? fine then, but cut it out after 50 or something it just causes all these issues… of course the bottom line is it's not official, just some nice fan usually who volunteers to keep some peace and then it turns into a shit show.


    Forget the notebook, the list, and the hand written numbers on peoples hands. They are wrong on many levels and can also be easily manipulated. If you want to get something or be somewhere, more power to you. If you want it, go there early, sit there and wait for however long you want and earn it. Of course, people will watch your spot so you can get food, use the restroom, and get some merch.

    If you would rather do the pre-parties or just show up late, that's fine too. It's your choice. Just don't try to concoct some half ass plan or manipulate the situation to try and do both.


    As for those that are say they should bring back the seats, it will happen. This is a short US arena tour. I thought it was a great idea that they brought the GA back and I think it has shown at the shows. The next tour may be mostly amphitheaters and those would be all, or mostly all seats. They could do another arena tour and switch back to seats. Or, dare I say, do shows in smaller theaters. ;) Those would be all seats too.

    There are several venues out there that can't accommodate a GA section so I think that people that think this GA situation is an absolute or an end all be all situation are wrong.


    I apologize for the small rant on this over talked about topic.

    That's just my 2 cents (That are actually worth $37 and some change) 8-)


    And just to provide an update. I did hear back from the 10 Club. Their message to me was this: If we change it for upcoming tours, we'll publish the change to let you know. For now, it's first come, first served.

    So they didn't really have any comment on the list-making system by fans and its propensity in allowing some fans to get out of truly waiting.
    1/95 DC 7/95 Chicago Tor Tol Cha 96 AlpV I II Chi St L KC 98 BSB I II 99 Phx Vegas Fresno SBern 00 BSB I II 01 (met ed) Vegas Phx Fargo St. Paul Chicago Alpine V Indy Col Virg Phi I II MSG I II (got on DVD!) 03 Calg 05 Clev Vegas LA I II SBar 06 Lon Dus Cop Nij Bel 07 Phi I II DC MSG I II Har BOS I II 08, LA3/4, SD '09, MSG I II '10, Missoula, London ONT, Wrigley, SD, LA1/2, Portland. Wrigley '16 I and II. 
  • CareyCarey Posts: 2,361
    I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read what Brennan (OP) :wave: had to say, and I would like to add a little something else regarding the situation with the GA line...

    I waited in line at Missoula for GA. And by waited in line, I mean I was there with the exception of a couple of bathroom breaks, and my brother left to go grab some food for us. It was kind of disheartening to see that some people showed up at 7am for their "number", and then left the entire day until 4pm to hop back in line.

    I've noticed the same on Facebook with this current tour, people with (for example) #12 on their hand, and they are sitting in Denny's diner or some hotel room, etc.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think this behavior kind of sucks.
    "Can't buy what I want because it's free..."
  • Carey wrote:
    I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read what Brennan (OP) :wave: had to say, and I would like to add a little something else regarding the situation with the GA line...

    I waited in line at Missoula for GA. And by waited in line, I mean I was there with the exception of a couple of bathroom breaks, and my brother left to go grab some food for us. It was kind of disheartening to see that some people showed up at 7am for their "number", and then left the entire day until 4pm to hop back in line.

    I've noticed the same on Facebook with this current tour, people with (for example) #12 on their hand, and they are sitting in Denny's diner or some hotel room, etc.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think this behavior kind of sucks.

    Hi Carey! It does suck. More and more fans are saying that they're seeing the exact same unethical leaving thing, even at the last show the other day in Phoenix.
    1/95 DC 7/95 Chicago Tor Tol Cha 96 AlpV I II Chi St L KC 98 BSB I II 99 Phx Vegas Fresno SBern 00 BSB I II 01 (met ed) Vegas Phx Fargo St. Paul Chicago Alpine V Indy Col Virg Phi I II MSG I II (got on DVD!) 03 Calg 05 Clev Vegas LA I II SBar 06 Lon Dus Cop Nij Bel 07 Phi I II DC MSG I II Har BOS I II 08, LA3/4, SD '09, MSG I II '10, Missoula, London ONT, Wrigley, SD, LA1/2, Portland. Wrigley '16 I and II. 
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 11,960
    Carey wrote:
    I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read what Brennan (OP) :wave: had to say, and I would like to add a little something else regarding the situation with the GA line...

    I waited in line at Missoula for GA. And by waited in line, I mean I was there with the exception of a couple of bathroom breaks, and my brother left to go grab some food for us. It was kind of disheartening to see that some people showed up at 7am for their "number", and then left the entire day until 4pm to hop back in line.

    I've noticed the same on Facebook with this current tour, people with (for example) #12 on their hand, and they are sitting in Denny's diner or some hotel room, etc.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think this behavior kind of sucks.

    Hi Carey! It does suck. More and more fans are saying that they're seeing the exact same unethical leaving thing, even at the last show the other day in Phoenix.

    Grown adults won't want to fight for a space in line, so when these jerks with numbers show up at 4pm they get away with it. It is going to take the majority of people waiting in to say screw the number system and not write it on their hands. Power in numbers. Even if you could be number 5 on the list, have the courage to not use the damn number system and tell people who arrive after you what happens if the number system is used (you know, if they aren't the punks that think they can leave for 5 hours and still have their spot).
  • I wish we could all just agree that it's a shit situation and get rid of the notebook....but there will always be people who try and do things like this. There is no easy answer. I, for one, don't want GA to go away. I love being in the pit and feeling the crowd and music.

    Did it suck to get moved back by about 100 people in line when everyone showed up from the preparty? Absolutely. Did I bitch about it until the doors opened? You betcha!

    But once I got inside, I was so close and surrounded by such great people that nothing else really mattered!

    I really wish we could fix this, but I don't think it's going to happen. We are all a little wiser for the next time.
  • chittychitty Posts: 410
    Really don`t want to read thru all these posts. So can someone help me out. I have GA in Vancouver and from what I can tell they took out ten rows of seats. Thus I can`t imagine there are even that many GA tickets. I`d like to be in the middle of the floor, don`t have to be on the rail or anything.

    So, if I come to the show after pre drinks and the doors are already open, the GA area must be small enough that I`m at worst ten rows of people back in the GA area?

    I can't seriously believe there is some kind of "list" holding people's spots that is ridiculous and please do not go back to all seated floor. This is from someone who won dead center row 1lottery. I"d rather have GA, more energy

    Thanks
  • Is this still going on? Anyone else just want to hear some good music??
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  • chitty wrote:
    Really don`t want to read thru all these posts. So can someone help me out. I have GA in Vancouver and from what I can tell they took out ten rows of seats. Thus I can`t imagine there are even that many GA tickets. I`d like to be in the middle of the floor, don`t have to be on the rail or anything.

    So, if I come to the show after pre drinks and the doors are already open, the GA area must be small enough that I`m at worst ten rows of people back in the GA area?

    I can't seriously believe there is some kind of "list" holding people's spots that is ridiculous and please do not go back to all seated floor. This is from someone who won dead center row 1lottery. I"d rather have GA, more energy

    Thanks

    I think the list is just a way to let people in to the arena according to how early they started queing.
    I can't think people actully think the spot they got when they got in actually is theirs to keep. Or?
    Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the Universe...
  • TyTy Posts: 1,006
    If someone told me to write a number on my hand or put my name on a list, I'd happily tell the nerd to fuck off. If they insisted and explained the reason, I'd insist they fuck off and explain how they can. Can't believe I'm contributing to such a dumb argument.
    PJ - Sydney 1998; Sydney 2003; Sydney, Melbourne, Newcastle 2006; Melbourne, Sydney 2009; Gold Coast, Melbourne, Sydney 2014.
    EV - Canberra, Newcastle, Sydney 2011; Sydney 2014.
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