Criticism of MYM because of religious beliefs

13

Comments

  • JaneNYJaneNY Posts: 4,434
    ckravitz wrote:

    I'm not religious at all.... heck, the building trembles when I enter it for xyz occasion, but I have to ask, why Christians? Is that to infer you are not "so fucking sick and tired" of comments and radicals from other religions?

    I think Christian issues are more in our radar living in the U.S. (for those of us that do). Ed's American too. PJ is an American band - we see U.S. news, and there are a lot of issues related to both religion and guns being discussed in this country, and in the news. Issues such as abortion, guns in schools, the place of prayer, where it is okay to have religious observance, and people who vocally say they are religious, but it doesn't show in their actions. Christianity is the majority religious umbrella (covering Catholicism, Evangelical and Protestant faiths) in the U.S.; many of the conservative politicians in this country represent themselves as Christian and use their beliefs when trying to establish government policy, so it would be natural for an American band to focus more on Christianity in their challenging of religion.
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  • october22october22 Posts: 2,533
    NewJPage wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    october22 wrote:
    Zero evidence for the existence of any god and religion is humanity's species-wide embarrassment and shame.

    I am critical or both religion and people's faith. I'm critical of non-rationalists because irrational thinking is a threat to us all. I take that threat seriously and I don't play nice about it. No one should. I'm not sure of every lyric in the song as they haven't officially been released yet but I applaud anything that even approaches critical thinking on the matter.

    No rationalist should ever mind his or her fucking manners. Speak out! Take the fight to the market place of ideas! The threat of "faith" is too real and the world's imancipation from it too necessary.

    Keep it up, PJ. I'm happy you're making us think again.

    I agree, stop people like Mother Theresa and missionaries from ruining this world!

    Missionaries are a good thing?

    I'm currently living in Nicaragua and seeing it first hand. What missionaries do is down right evil. American evangelicals and others (plenty of mormans here at the moment) are crawling all over the "third world" preying on these people. Makes me sick.
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,315
    Even though I think religion is bullshit and should be abandoned, I know that that a lot of religious people do a lot of good work in the name of their religion... so while some missionaries, priests, nuns, etc are fuckheads, I wouldn't paint them all with the same brush.
  • asgoodasedasgoodased Posts: 109
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.
    I am right by your side...
  • aNiMaLaNiMaL Posts: 7,089
    Where is this religious criticism of the song? Is there a thread on this forum about it or elsewhere?
  • october22october22 Posts: 2,533
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.

    That's lovely. But it's all done under the guise of bringing them into the fold; increasing your numbers in the hopes of future dominance for your sect in the region. There is nothing you do that non-believers don't. The major difference is that you inculcate the most vulnerable in society with poisonous nonsense that eventually becomes institutionalized ignorance. I think it's great that you take time to do good for others and I'm all for building houses, but not at the expense your "goodwill" comes with.
  • Hugo ReyesHugo Reyes Posts: 232
    october22 wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.

    That's lovely. But it's all done under the guise of bringing them into the fold; increasing your numbers in the hopes of future dominance for your sect in the region. There is nothing you do that non-believers don't. The major difference is that you inculcate the most vulnerable in society with poisonous nonsense that eventually becomes institutionalized ignorance. I think it's great that you take time to do good for others and I'm all for building houses, but not at the expense your "goodwill" comes with.

    That's harsh. I'm a 100% atheist but there are MANY people who do good work with a church just because they think they are serving God by doing good things...there isn't always a sales job.

    I disagree with these people's motivations but if at the end of the day they are giving back then who the hell cares why.
  • aNiMaLaNiMaL Posts: 7,089
    You guys should read The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris: http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Landsca ... +landscape

    Really good book about how we do not need religion to be good people. How in most cases in history, religion brings out the worst intentions in people.
  • october22 wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.

    That's lovely. But it's all done under the guise of bringing them into the fold; increasing your numbers in the hopes of future dominance for your sect in the region. There is nothing you do that non-believers don't. The major difference is that you inculcate the most vulnerable in society with poisonous nonsense that eventually becomes institutionalized ignorance. I think it's great that you take time to do good for others and I'm all for building houses, but not at the expense your "goodwill" comes with.

    whoa! october22 take it easy man . . . stop hating. Picking on Christians, man that's so passé; if our beloved band had any balls why don't they say something about the radical muslims? Probably cause those Christian people just turn the other cheek . . .
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  • Hugo Reyes wrote:
    october22 wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.

    That's lovely. But it's all done under the guise of bringing them into the fold; increasing your numbers in the hopes of future dominance for your sect in the region. There is nothing you do that non-believers don't. The major difference is that you inculcate the most vulnerable in society with poisonous nonsense that eventually becomes institutionalized ignorance. I think it's great that you take time to do good for others and I'm all for building houses, but not at the expense your "goodwill" comes with.

    That's harsh. I'm a 100% atheist but there are MANY people who do good work with a church just because they think they are serving God by doing good things...there isn't always a sales job.

    I disagree with these people's motivations but if at the end of the day they are giving back then who the hell cares why.

    As long as they are honest about it, which they aren't. It's mostly done for their own self interest.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,213
    Religion... all religions, are a filter between Man and God. It is not a criticism or and attack on religion, it is a fact. Religion was created by Man and each religion creates and paints God as Man sees Him. God may exist or God may simply be Nature and the natural order of things. But, Man created Gdn in Man's image, in order to stake a claim on Him... as their exclusive property. With God on MY side, I am right is the basic premise of religion. With God on my side, my belief is true and all others are wrong. Religion was created and is always created in order to contol people to a standardized belief.
    That does not mean belief, hope and faith are wrong or bad... if it is true. Religious belief is belief in a prescribed doctrine of who God is and what religion tell us God wants from us. It is not God, it is Man at the center of religion. That makes it okay to go to war with God on our side... or how we can persecute others because we are doing God's will.
    My belief is that God grants me free will to question what others say is right and to question God Himself. I seek a direct relationship with God, without the rituals of a church or religion. I don't ask you to believe me or follow me and I do not suggest you forsake your chosen path. All I am saying is find your own way and be true to your belief.
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  • october22october22 Posts: 2,533
    Hugo Reyes wrote:
    october22 wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.

    That's lovely. But it's all done under the guise of bringing them into the fold; increasing your numbers in the hopes of future dominance for your sect in the region. There is nothing you do that non-believers don't. The major difference is that you inculcate the most vulnerable in society with poisonous nonsense that eventually becomes institutionalized ignorance. I think it's great that you take time to do good for others and I'm all for building houses, but not at the expense your "goodwill" comes with.

    That's harsh. I'm a 100% atheist but there are MANY people who do good work with a church just because they think they are serving God by doing good things...there isn't always a sales job.

    I disagree with these people's motivations but if at the end of the day they are giving back then who the hell cares why.

    I agree with you. There are many great people who do good work with churches. The poster I was responding to is no doubt one of them. However, I'm speaking on a macro level and they are absolutely intending to export their beliefs.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,213
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.
    ...
    Would you do those things if you weren't religious?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • fsunoles30fsunoles30 Posts: 143
    I question religion, etc.; but are there any aetheists in foxholes? When bullets start flying and bombs dropping....does it affect your allegiance to a God or religion?
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  • october22october22 Posts: 2,533
    fsunoles30 wrote:
    I question religion, etc.; but are there any aetheists in foxholes? When bullets start flying and bombs dropping....does it affect your allegiance to a God or religion?

    Yes, there are atheists in foxholes. The late Christopher Hitchens was one of them. He spoke about this experience several times.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,213
    fsunoles30 wrote:
    I question religion, etc.; but are there any aetheists in foxholes? When bullets start flying and bombs dropping....does it affect your allegiance to a God or religion?
    ...
    Wanting not to die has nothing to do with religion. Everyone wlll 'pray' to live and not to die... in those terrible situations... but, it not always to the God of religion. If prayers did work... religious people would not die in foxholes, along with the atheists, right?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • SEACIDESEACIDE Posts: 385
    I interpret as the song as saying.....

    "I don't know, and
    those who think they do,
    don't know shit,
    and those who do things
    based on what they think they know,
    are assholes"

    and PJ religion, as we know it only has one commandment........

    DON"T BE AN ASSHOLE

    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    Love is all you need.....
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,213
    SEACIDE wrote:
    I interpret as the song as saying.....

    "I don't know, and
    those who think they do,
    don't know shit,
    and those who do things
    based on what they think they know,
    are assholes"

    and PJ religion, as we know it only has one commandment........

    DON"T BE AN ASSHOLE

    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    ...
    I agree with the 'I don't Know' part. Because I know that I don't know and I know that no one knows. People will believe in something, but they don't truely 'know'. Their belief may be so strong that is becomes truth to them... but, the actual truth is... they don't know... they believe.
    But, I don't think they are assholes... but, I do believe they cannot see/understand the difference between belief and knowledge... between truth and faith. Simply because... they are people.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • asgoodasedasgoodased Posts: 109
    Cosmo wrote:
    asgoodased wrote:
    Huh. The missionaries I and my family have been on have involved helping built houses for homeless people, donating and cooking food for those people, finding places to live that are safe for those being persecuted for their beliefs (obviously overseas), and things of that sort. Not sure what you're seeing.
    ...
    Would you do those things if you weren't religious?

    That'a a great question and it's tough to give a complete answer.

    The easy, simple answer would be no; but simply because my church is the one that arranges everything and allows me to go where people want help.

    The longer answer is who knows? I'd like to think I'd still do those types of things, but without being brought up the way I was (as my parents are Christians), it's tough to tell. But I hope so!

    And to the other poster who said we are just trying to spread our doctrine or whatever...that may be true, though I've never personally done it. I usually leave it at "If you want to know more, ask me and I'd be happy to share."
    I am right by your side...
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,213
    asgoodased wrote:
    That'a a great question and it's tough to give a complete answer.

    The easy, simple answer would be no; but simply because my church is the one that arranges everything and allows me to go where people want help.

    The longer answer is who knows? I'd like to think I'd still do those types of things, but without being brought up the way I was (as my parents are Christians), it's tough to tell. But I hope so!

    And to the other poster who said we are just trying to spread our doctrine or whatever...that may be true, though I've never personally done it. I usually leave it at "If you want to know more, ask me and I'd be happy to share."
    ...
    Thanx for that honest response.
    i believe our moral compass is set by the humanity within us. Whether we are raised as Christians or Muslims or Jews... we all eventually see what goes on in the world. We don't need religion to be aware of what is good and what is evil... we just need to understand the difference between good and evil and the possibility of our good deeds (such as our passing judgement upon others) as acts of evil.
    If the church really does want to do good deeds, they should accept the voluenteer offer of an atheist, lesbian construction worker to help them frame a wall for a family in need. The good deed would be to set aside their institutional prejudices and see the humanity within the person... not the labels that have placed upon them.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • KathiKathi Posts: 1,826
    kenny olav wrote:
    It's a balls out atheist anthem, and I love it all the more for it. It could have been just a nice punchy punk rock song, but it's also a big middle finger to the idea that people need 'God'. It seems to say 'Emancipate yourselves from religion, the religious idea of heaven is really hell'. Awesome song... I love the renewed passion and energy!

    I interpret it that way as well (balls out atheist anthem is just what I wanted! :D )...strong critique of organized religion and the awful things that come with it.


    I believe the freedom of expression of the artist is to be respected. if I don't like what someone has to say, I won't listen to it...see the lack of christian rock on all my music devices. or right-wing patriotic country. or whatever else I think is crap and has an awful message.
  • PU38569PU38569 Posts: 247
    I think this is a rip toward institutions and individuals who abuse religion to justify evil acts and attitudes. Not about church mice who do good. Its about mind-controllers and hypocrites. There are a lot of good doing , good believing religious people out there. But contextual circumstances can pull an individual from the good end of the spectrum to the bad, into promoting or defending an act or idea that they may not have otherwise, had they not allowed themselves to be programmed to certain religious beliefs.
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  • smbialassmbialas Posts: 51
    I think to arrogantly discount the possibility of a God is ignorant. To make fun of people who believe in God is just being a crappy human. Musically... as Mcready put it the new album is an extension of backspacer, and after hearing it I believe him ( i thought that quote was funny because why extend your lowest selling/ least popular album)I think Ed may have gone a little over his pay grade in the lyrics, but its America and its his choice as its our choice whether or not to buy it. Hope the rest of the album sounds better...
  • unforgivenunforgiven Posts: 291
    smbialas wrote:
    I think Ed may have gone a little over his pay grade in the lyrics, but its America and its his choice as its our choice whether or not to buy it. Hope the rest of the album sounds better...

    Why? I think this song is great lyrically.
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 11,427
    Kathi wrote:
    kenny olav wrote:
    It's a balls out atheist anthem, and I love it all the more for it. It could have been just a nice punchy punk rock song, but it's also a big middle finger to the idea that people need 'God'. It seems to say 'Emancipate yourselves from religion, the religious idea of heaven is really hell'. Awesome song... I love the renewed passion and energy!

    I interpret it that way as well (balls out atheist anthem is just what I wanted! :D )...strong critique of organized religion and the awful things that come with it.


    I believe the freedom of expression of the artist is to be respected. if I don't like what someone has to say, I won't listen to it...see the lack of christian rock on all my music devices. or right-wing patriotic country. or whatever else I think is crap and has an awful message.

    It is healthy to listen to only people that you agree with. Can't be bothered with challenging and refining your beliefs.

    If I took your attitude I wouldn't have listened to Pearl Jam. But I get past their politics/beliefs because I believe they really care about making the world better.

    I Watch ultra liberal, dangerous to freedoms MSNBC because I would rather hear from people I disagree with and actually have to think abou my positions than only listen to those my point of view would would trnd to agree with.

    The world is getting more and more liberal. How is it working out? Conservatives blew it. Liberals are blowing it.
  • JaneNYJaneNY Posts: 4,434

    The world is getting more and more liberal. How is it working out?

    You mean like down in Texas?

    I'm fine with the words in MYM; actually I like them.
    R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
    R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
    R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
  • JaneNY wrote:

    The world is getting more and more liberal. How is it working out?

    You mean like down in Texas?

    I'm fine with the words in MYM; actually I like them.


    Darned liberals. Giving people equal rights and stuff. If only we could go back to the good old days when gays stayed in the closet due to fear, blacks were slaves, and women stayed barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
  • AzWickerAzWicker Posts: 1,162
    I hope Ed doesn't write a song against organized dinosaurs, because that would make me sad :(
    Ed: 2011-07-09 2012-11-04
    PJ: 2011-09-03 2011-09-04
  • AzWickerAzWicker Posts: 1,162
    I Watch ultra liberal, dangerous to freedoms MSNBC because I would rather hear from people I disagree with and actually have to think abou my positions than only listen to those my point of view would would trnd to agree with.

    This!

    Because you can't learn a god damn thing from someone who parrots yourself!!! :!:

    We learn from our differences, at least I do. I still don't watch Faux News or MSNBC
    Ed: 2011-07-09 2012-11-04
    PJ: 2011-09-03 2011-09-04
  • october22october22 Posts: 2,533
    edited July 2013
    smbialas wrote:
    I think to arrogantly discount the possibility of a God is ignorant. To make fun of people who believe in God is just being a crappy human. Musically... as Mcready put it the new album is an extension of backspacer, and after hearing it I believe him ( i thought that quote was funny because why extend your lowest selling/ least popular album)I think Ed may have gone a little over his pay grade in the lyrics, but its America and its his choice as its our choice whether or not to buy it. Hope the rest of the album sounds better...

    Do you believe in unicorns, fairies, garden gnomes or Santa Claus? You probably don't since there is no evidence in support of them. Is it "arrogant" or "ignorant" to discount the possibility of their existence? No. And that's exactly why it's no less arrogant to discount a god's existence. This line of thinking is irrefutable yet somehow often found unacceptable, especially by people like you who haven't actually taken the time to think your argument through to its conclusion.

    It doesn't make someone "crappy" to criticize or even ridicule someone who believes in god, especially if that person engages in the debate. Mockery may not always be the best tool to fight bad ideas but it is certainly one of them and does have its place. Remember, the belief in god is not immutable. It's not your ethnicity, it's not where you were born, it is simply an idea, a choice, and ideas are often fit for ridicule. We are all free to, and should as often as possible, attack unfit, dangerous or unsupported ideas.

    Also, what do you mean by saying Ed went over his pay grade with the lyrics; that they're inflammatory or just not well written?
    Post edited by october22 on
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