confederate flag: offensive or historical?

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  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    riotgrl wrote:
    Come on over, ya'll! Although, I don't really care for sweet tea - too sweet for me! My Oaks Lily (vodka drink that is the official drink of the Oaks Race which is the day before the Kentucky Derby) is even better :mrgreen:
    I had sweet tea once when we were in Columbus...holy hell! WAY sweet for me. Then again, I never put sugar in my iced tea to begin with :)

    As to flags, I've never flown one myself but growing up, my dad hung the American flag for Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc. As a German-born citizen, that cloth symbolized much for him, liberty included. I never felt shame in seeing it on our front porch; in fact, thinking about it brings sweet memories to mind.
  • vant0037
    vant0037 Posts: 6,170
    If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?

    If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?

    If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?

    If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
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  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,063
    vant0037 wrote:
    If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?

    If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?

    If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?

    If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?

    Bingo
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,245
    Jeanwah wrote:
    riotgrl wrote:

    I never said ALL but fine I will take that bait. As a southerner who has had to listen to Confederate flag defenders for the entirety of my life, unlike you who has lived outside of the south for the majority of your life, it is racist to fly the flag on your front porch or on your car. People, like my family, like you, like your friends, can twist the meaning all you want but if you actually understood ANY of the history of the South or the Civil War then you would understand that SLAVERY is RACIST. You can twist the facts any way you like but that flag does nothing but represent the hatred of an entire ethnic/racial group. Anyone who lives in the south today knows that racism is alive and well, especially in a deep south state like GA. There are Jim Crow laws still in existence - many counties refuse to remove them from the laws 'because of their historical significance'. There are places in the deep south that still have signage denoting the Jim Crow laws and they are not removed 'for historical significance'. These are racist things NOT historical things. I, and others on here, have acknowledged the historical signficance of this flag. I, and others have acknowledged, that there are instances in which flying the flag is acceptable but to use it to 'honor the dead' or to represent southern pride is not acceptable. I do feel very strongly about this because I have to live this shit every damn day of my life. I am tired of racist rednecks without an iota of historical knowledge proclaiming their southern pride in an institution that dehumanized and HATED blacks. Religion excused it away, economic institutions excused it, politicians used it to their advantage. For shame, that southerners think that what this flag SYMBOLIZES, is anything to take pride in. I take a deep pride in being from the south. I take pride in things like calling my carbonated beverage a coke. I take pride in the totally amazing sweet tea and fried chicken that I make. I take pride in the ingrained sense of politeness, graciousness, and willingness to help others that is inherent in the south. I take pride in the care we bestow on our historical monuments and our willingness to change on so many accounts. But racism is alive and well in the south. And I find your defense of a symbol that is about hate and is about racism, and not about history, offensive.
    :clap:


    Again here in West Plam Beach Florida, just a few hours ago driving up highway 441 I saw a SUV covered from top to bottom in mud. The SUV also had a Confederate Flag sticker in the shape of Florida, my first thought wasn't of any hate, towards the sticker or the person driving (a young man in his 20's) my first thought was that thing NEEDS A WASH. Then I thought maybe he's thinking like an elephant who throws mud on his back to keep cool and to ward off flies. He did not have his air conditioner on so maybe he's unto a good thing or revolutionary idea. 8-)

    People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.

    In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.

    Where is your TOLERANCE?

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    g under p wrote:
    People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.

    In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.

    Where is your TOLERANCE?

    Peace
    Well said, g!
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    hedonist wrote:
    g under p wrote:
    People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.

    In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.

    Where is your TOLERANCE?

    Peace
    Well said, g!

    Agreed!
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    vant0037 wrote:
    If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?

    If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?

    If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?

    If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
    Because that is not the flag that their ancestors held when they suffered and died.
    Many who fought did not support slavery either.

    How about you and others learn to hate the haters who deserve it
    and leave those who are honoring history and loved ones lost in the war ...
    to their personal dedication. Must be too difficult to differentiate amidst all the judging.

    Now a Civil War musical that might be offensive :lol:
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    I have never liked the word tolerance...
    it presumes there is something wrong with someone or something that must be tolerated.

    I know I need not tolerate my friends and others whose motives are pure...
    when they display their flag historically for loved ones lost,
    why would there be the need?

    Tolerate the hate groups then ? Well I would ignore them mostly.
    Why give the haters the satisfaction. Why give them the flag for evil totally
    when we have good loving kind hearted people who want to use the flag based
    in love? Yes I would not tolerate them I would ignore.

    Tolerate those who find it impossible to not judge ALL who hold the flag.
    I think not.

    Tolerate the people who pick and choose what group to hate not realizing
    in doing so they themselves are hating ... they are no different than a hate group.
    I guess I have to tolerate these fools what choice do I have?
    They know not what they do.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,741
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I guess you must not be a PJ poster person either...
    kind of the same idea.

    :? Wow. Not even close.. well except maybe the Creed fans might find it offensive. :P
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Can anyone explain why some have such lust or love for a FLAG to begin with? What's with the love affair? I know that I don't need any stinking flag to symbolize my love of whatever country/state/universe/planet/galaxy I'm from. I don't need a piece of fabric on a stick to represent who I am, so why do others? I get that it's history, I get that it coincides with military duty, etc. But flags in general only have the use that one puts into them. If they're signified with a universal negative connotation (as the Confederate is) then why be a source of disrespect to the rest of human civilization? Why bother?

    This is what I find so confusing. I can understand pride. I understand wanting others to know you are proud of your great great great great great grandfather. But to do so, knowing there are many/entire races that find it offensive... honestly, even if someone has ZERO negative motives, you'd think they might reconsider just out of respect, and as Mike said, display a hat or uniform, or put a civil war history book on your goddamn coffee table or something... :?

    No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
    an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping. ;)

    But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
    Have you never been to a reenactment?
    Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?

    Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    brianlux wrote:
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:
    high as a kite or drunk as a skunk take your pick
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    brianlux wrote:
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:

    Some will never get pass the fact that they lost the war and that we're still all one, united country. :lol:
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,741
    Jeanwah wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:

    Some will never get pass the fact that they lost the war and that we're still all one, united country. :lol:

    From the looks of these guys- and I mean really- I'm pretty sure they caught a ride with Marty McFly in the up coming "Back to the Future IV". :lol:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,245
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:
    high as a kite or drunk as a skunk take your pick

    Making excuses now for that kind of behavior now. However, then again ONLY YOU would know they could NEVER actually mean what was said without any influence to a passing car.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • pj1981
    pj1981 Posts: 288
    g under p wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?

    WTF was that about? :lol:
    high as a kite or drunk as a skunk take your pick

    Making excuses now for that kind of behavior now. However, then again ONLY YOU would know they could NEVER actually mean what was said without any influence to a passing car.

    Peace
    That may have been an attempt at levity, well that was how I took it.
    I don't think anyone was making excuses for bad hateful actions.
    Wasn't the idea to see the difference between good and bad?
    I thought good for those who could understand the difference.

    But man people say and do crazy shit when high and drunk :lol:
    most all got stories.
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    I just wanted to say that I am glad this thread did not get locked. I know that I have been harsh and intolerant on this issue, perhaps most especially towards Pandora; however, I feel very strongly that we, as a country, do not have real and honest conversations about racism. While the bulk of this discussion has centered on the Confederate flag, I do think we hit on some underlying issues regarding racism and I am grateful that we were able to have this conversation, contentious at times yes, but hopefully productive as well. Hope this doesn't come across as patronizing but I am glad that there is a place where discussions like this can happen. If any of you find yourself in Louisville, KY then I hope you know you will always be welcome at my home!
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    I don't think you have been harsh riotgrl. You have expressed yourself in a very learned and sensible way. You, more than most on the thread, have first hand experience of the general feelings about this flag. Also, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the historical aspect of this and also understand it!

    Yes, the south does have an inherent issue with certain racist attitudes (I know... not just the south..) and 'embracing' and/or flaunting such a flagrant symbol (as perceived by the large majority) of this attitude only goes to perpetuate this bigoted and agonistic mindset.
  • pj1981
    pj1981 Posts: 288
    Being in the South myself I would disagree that the South has anymore racist views
    than in other parts of the country,which I have lived in as well.
    That is the type of view that has been focused on in this thread.
    That type prejudice.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    As I said, not just the south but I do feel the south does have more inherent issues than some other parts of the US (and yes, I have lived in the south - the deep south). Riotgrl has touched upon these issues in one of her posts. It's not always a question of being deeply and obviously racist but sometimes an 'attitude', a belief a 'I'm not racist and I have a black friend but.....' attitude.

    Most of my southern friends do not display any racist attitude whatsoever just as my 'other' friends, but the same cannot be said for all.

    I guess the reason why the focus has been on the south is because we are discussing a southern flag flown, mostly by southern people, with either pride, arrogance, superiority, belligerence or just plain ignorance of it's symbolism.

    Another flag, another country, another focus...
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    The racist attitudes in much of the South are very subtle. I am sure most people don't spend their time examining the attitudes of their friends and family because they are not overt in their attitudes nor behavior. However, that doesn't mean that it's not there. As I said before, talking about racism can only be a good thing. And while I agree that racism exists everywhere in this nation, I do believe that it is more pervasive in the south mostly as a legacy of first slavery then segregation.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
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