confederate flag: offensive or historical?

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

I guess you must not be a PJ poster person either...
kind of the same idea.

:? Wow. Not even close.. well except maybe the Creed fans might find it offensive. :P

Jeanwah wrote:

Can anyone explain why some have such lust or love for a FLAG to begin with? What's with the love affair? I know that I don't need any stinking flag to symbolize my love of whatever country/state/universe/planet/galaxy I'm from. I don't need a piece of fabric on a stick to represent who I am, so why do others? I get that it's history, I get that it coincides with military duty, etc. But flags in general only have the use that one puts into them. If they're signified with a universal negative connotation (as the Confederate is) then why be a source of disrespect to the rest of human civilization? Why bother?

This is what I find so confusing. I can understand pride. I understand wanting others to know you are proud of your great great great great great grandfather. But to do so, knowing there are many/entire races that find it offensive... honestly, even if someone has ZERO negative motives, you'd think they might reconsider just out of respect, and as Mike said, display a hat or uniform, or put a civil war history book on your goddamn coffee table or something... :?

No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.

But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?

Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.

I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.

But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.

pj1981

The South is no different than anywhere else. It is far less segregated and less hateful
in general that other parts of the country.
It is the person who is viewing, their problem, due to bias.
Whether that be with family members who hold very different views than theirs,
or personal embarrassment of how the South is viewed for it's history or their own generalized
prejudice.

The South gets so much more guff that really has absolutely no basis,
you know like a standing joke of sorts. Probably based in the history.
The South has so much pride based on this alone. Got to stay strong!
I love the strength of of the South and why the Rise Again is very important.
This thread and the nasty stuff said about Southerners is the crux to rise...
it is really rise above.

Rise above all the prejudice for the South not from the South. :fp:

pj1981

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.

But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?

Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.

I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.

But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.

I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.

I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.

JonnyPistachio

pj1981 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.

But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.

I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.

I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.

Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.

pj1981

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pj1981 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.

But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.

I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.

I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.

Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.

Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.

Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.

Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.

JonnyPistachio

pj1981 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pj1981 wrote:

I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.

I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.

Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.

Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.

Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.

Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.

But you simply cant disregard what it stands for. We're not just talking about it as a hobby. You can make it fit your agenda all day long, but if you look at how the entire population views Pearl Jam versus how the entire population views the confederate flag, you cant disregard the symbolism... especially if you're going to make an analogy while we're discussing the political ramifications of each. And we're not just talking about the people who have good intentions. I know there are some of course. We are talking about how the flag is perceived, and how it can be found offensive by an entire race. You cant simply leave that out of the discussion. I cant believe I have to explain why this analogy doesnt work. :?

Being afraid of cats? :? oh man, this just gets worse and worse...

But now that I think of it, Eddie did piss off a whole lotta southerners when he "impaled" the George Bush mask on the mic stand a few years back, so maybe the analogy could stand a bit. Not much, but at least some people dislike Eddies politics too. So there's that. But the band has never been associated with the KKK or anything like that, that Im aware of.

pj1981

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pj1981 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.

Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.

Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.

Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.

But you simply cant disregard what it stands for. We're not just talking about it as a hobby. You can make it fit your agenda all day long, but if you look at how the entire population views Pearl Jam versus how the entire population views the confederate flag, you cant disregard the symbolism... especially if you're going to make an analogy while we're discussing the political ramifications of each. And we're not just talking about the people who have good intentions. I know there are some of course. We are talking about how the flag is perceived, and how it can be found offensive by an entire race. You cant simply leave that out of the discussion. I cant believe I have to explain why this analogy doesnt work. :?

Being afraid of cats? :? oh man, this just gets worse and worse...

But now that I think of it, Eddie did piss off a whole lotta southerners when he "impaled" the George Bush mask on the mic stand a few years back, so maybe the analogy could stand a bit. Not much, but at least some people dislike Eddies politics too. So there's that. But the band has never been associated with the KKK or anything like that, that Im aware of.

It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better

It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.
Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.

Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.

JonnyPistachio

pj1981 wrote:

It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better

I completely understood where she was coming from. I explained all of this in my last post. Did you miss that I said I understand if she was talking about the very few, tiny part of the population that collect things like this? And that we're talking about the bigger picture, not just a few folks in Pandora's neighborhood? :fp:

pj1981 wrote:

It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.

Fine, if you want to just see it as regarding Pandora's neighbors, then there's no point in talking about the bigger picture with you. Im guessing you havent read the rest of the thread where we were discussing how it is perceived and the motivations, and history of the flag? Its ok, i'll give you a pass this time..

pj1981 wrote:

Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.

:? Im just saying the analogy doesnt work because of the bigger picture. I think you are twisting my words. Do you disagree that the confederate flag has been associated with hate groups, racism, and hate? Do you not see how comparing a flag that sometimes represents these things is a far, far stretch when comparing to collecting pearl jam posters? Yes, your agenda is to compare the flag to collecting PJ posters, WITHOUT respect to the symbolism and how it affects the entire country! You just conveniently want to leave that out.. Thats pretty clear to me.

ALL I ask is that if you make an analogy of flying the confederate flag to collecting pearl jam posters, that you acknowledge the fact that they both have clear and separate affects on people, and that they can be perceived as something completely different... and one is hurtful and one isnt.

pj1981 wrote:

Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.

No, it just gave me all I need. It showed me how seriously you take the history of slavery and racism and used analogies like collecting posters and hating cats and suddenly loving cats to the plight of an entire race. :? I understand what you wrote, its just ridiculous in these contexts, sorry.

pj1981

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pj1981 wrote:

It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better

I completely understood where she was coming from. I explained all of this in my last post. Did you miss that I said I understand if she was talking about the very few, tiny part of the population that collect things like this? And that we're talking about the bigger picture, not just a few folks in Pandora's neighborhood? :fp:

pj1981 wrote:

It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.

Fine, if you want to just see it as regarding Pandora's neighbors, then there's no point in talking about the bigger picture with you. Im guessing you havent read the rest of the thread where we were discussing how it is perceived and the motivations, and history of the flag? Its ok, i'll give you a pass this time..

pj1981 wrote:

Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.

:? Im just saying the analogy doesnt work because of the bigger picture. I think you are twisting my words. Do you disagree that the confederate flag has been associated with hate groups, racism, and hate? Do you not see how comparing a flag that sometimes represents these things is a far, far stretch when comparing to collecting pearl jam posters? Yes, your agenda is to compare the flag to collecting PJ posters, WITHOUT respect to the symbolism and how it affects the entire country! You just conveniently want to leave that out.. Thats pretty clear to me.

ALL I ask is that if you make an analogy of flying the confederate flag to collecting pearl jam posters, that you acknowledge the fact that they both have clear and separate affects on people, and that they can be perceived as something completely different... and one is hurtful and one isnt.

pj1981 wrote:

Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.

No, it just gave me all I need. It showed me how seriously you take the history of slavery and racism and used analogies like collecting posters and hating cats and suddenly loving cats to the plight of an entire race. :? I understand what you wrote, its just ridiculous in these contexts, sorry.

I don't think you got the cat thing because love is never ridiculous,
well maybe to you.
I have read most of the thread and enjoyed some of it. I get the posts about love in the thread.
Did you? Or more focused on the hate maybe?

I don't remember reading anything about neighbors :?
and I don't think you understood the posts you are referring to at all.

I read what you said about the very few before. I totally disagree it is a very few
in our country but you seem set on not acknowledging love in more ways than one.
Don't assume people are not serious they might just be serious
in a different way than you.

And it seems analogies mean different things to different people
that's for sure we should be able to agree on that

JonnyPistachio

pj1981 wrote:

I don't think you got the cat thing because love is never ridiculous,
well maybe to you.
I have read most of the thread and enjoyed some of it. I get the posts about love in the thread.
Did you? Or more focused on the hate maybe?

I don't remember reading anything about neighbors :?
and I don't think you understood the posts you are referring to at all.

I read what you said about the very few before. I totally disagree it is a very few
in our country but you seem set on not acknowledging love in more ways than one.
Don't assume people are not serious they might just be serious
in a different way than you.

And it seems analogies mean different things to different people
that's for sure we should be able to agree on that

I see you're having a tough time following along.. Where did I say "love" was ridiculous? I was saying the analogy is ridiculous and shows how seriously you take some of the symbolism behind the confederate flag.

Sure, im focused on hate -- Im focused on the people who hate and use the confederate flag to show that. I've seen it plenty in my time and I dont take it lightly because in most instances Ive come across, Ive been disgusted by the folks who use it. Obviously, more than others.

Pandora's neighbors.. I was being facetious, referring to her handful of friends that wave the flag and mean no harm by it. it was easier to type.

I dont care if you dont think I understand.. its obvious to me that you dont see the bigger picture of the analogy and why I said I disagreed with it. So tell me in your next post about how you didnt like spinach casserole when you were 12 years old and now you dont mind it and how that means that nobody meant any harm or disrespect to black people by flying a confederate flag. :?

Forget all this asinine analogy shit... Do you agree or not that the confederate flag is offensive to the majority of black people or not? do you understand why, when the flag was raised on certain capital buildings in recent years, that it was demanded taken down?

JonnyPistachio

pj1981 wrote:

The South is no different than anywhere else. It is far less segregated and less hateful
in general that other parts of the country.

I should've just given up when I read this post

PJ_Soul

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pj1981 wrote:

The South is no different than anywhere else. It is far less segregated and less hateful
in general that other parts of the country.

I should've just given up when I read this post

No shit!


As far as I can tell, there is no changing people's minds. It's clear that this symbol is hurtful and offensive to most people because it stands for racism and all the horrors inflicted upon an entire race of people in America for centuries (and all the hate that is still inflicted upon them now). However, it's also cleat that some people just don't give a shit that that is what they are doing to people's feelings. They'd rather fly a flag than spare people the indignity of having that history and present rubbed in their face. Oh well. That is their prerogative. Not sure how they can feel good about it, but since a few do, nothing we can do about it obviously.

redrock

I had to do a double take on reading some recent posts... Some 'styles' and 'content' can be so similar between a couple of people!

Anyway... thread going in circles again....

I love cats... :oops:

PJ_Soul

redrock wrote:

I had to do a double take on reading some recent posts... Some 'styles' and 'content' can be so similar between a couple of people!

Indeed.

BinauralJam

The Plot Thickens

chadwick

this thread is snoring boring now. and thank you (you know who you are) for getting someone a permanent ban. what possesses you to do none stop reporting of others? this is tattle tailing like a 1st grader. I will not be posting in this thread anymore & I suggest many of you do the same. permanent ban? a lifetime ban? permanent banning? I find this out of control

Cosmo

The following can also be used in defense of flying this flag:

"This is not the flag that their ancestors held when they suffered and died. Many who fought did not support genocide either.
How about people learn to hate the haters who deserve it and leave those who are honoring history and loved ones lost in the war to their personal dedication.
Must be too difficult to differentiate amidst all the judging."
...
Is it okay to fly the symbol of slavery... and not okay to fly the symbol of anti-Semitism?
The justification is that the battle flag should be free to fly in honor of the fallen soldier. I understand that.
But, as in everything, there is a different side.
What about the ancestors of the people who SUFFERED under those flags? Should their suffering go ignored, just because the ancestor of a war dead wants to display their flag? The flags remain he same, but the underlying symbolism has evolved... from a flag denoting one side of a war to one of the underlying reasons of the war.
The Battle Flag had its place in human history... on the battle field. That is where it should remain... as a reminder of Man's capability of inhumane acts.

PJ_Soul

Cosmo wrote:

The following can also be used in defense of flying this flag:

"This is not the flag that their ancestors held when they suffered and died. Many who fought did not support genocide either.
How about people learn to hate the haters who deserve it and leave those who are honoring history and loved ones lost in the war to their personal dedication.
Must be too difficult to differentiate amidst all the judging."
...
Is it okay to fly the symbol of slavery... and not okay to fly the symbol of anti-Semitism?
The justification is that the battle flag should be free to fly in honor of the fallen soldier. I understand that.
But, as in everything, there is a different side.
What about the ancestors of the people who SUFFERED under those flags? Should their suffering go ignored, just because the ancestor of a war dead wants to display their flag? The flags remain he same, but the underlying symbolism has evolved... from a flag denoting one side of a war to one of the underlying reasons of the war.
The Battle Flag had its place in human history... on the battle field. That is where it should remain... as a reminder of Man's capability of inhumane acts.

BinauralJam

chadwick wrote:

this thread is snoring boring now. and thank you (you know who you are) for getting someone a permanent ban. what possesses you to do none stop reporting of others? this is tattle tailing like a 1st grader. I will not be posting in this thread anymore & I suggest many of you do the same. permanent ban? a lifetime ban? permanent banning? I find this out of control

Who got the boot?

EYE see.

STAYSEA

redrock wrote:

STAYSEA wrote:

The Confederate Flag is HISTORICAL.

Of course it's historical. No argument about that (though maybe the wording of the title can be a bit confusing).

But historical doesn't preclude offensive.

This was the OP's question. WE answered it. I'm sure!
If you care to see the OP's question. I agree with the school. Unless, the 8th grade kid was wearing the shirt because Civil War reenactments are his/her hobby or they really like history, I can see a reason.

other than that, I don't think the kid should wear it to school. That is why the schools have rules, and codes of conduct.

Should I start a thread on whether or not Guys should sag their baggy pants.



Who wants to see underwear all the time? Are you offended?


There is a law in Miami.. I'm SERIOUS. You will be fined if you sag and bag. Is that historical, racist, offensive or a violation of Human rights? IDK. But it's a law that was passed.


I'm offended by people that eat mayonnaise. :fp: