Lance Armstrong doping ?

polaris_x wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

no they wouldnt have. Mcgwire wasnt mean about it, and the guys now a pariah.

Its the same as torture and all that other stuff. yes, you punish and go after the agents who torture detainees, but you also, go after the people who ordered it, the higher ups who knew about it and did nothing.

For me, thats way more disturbing. UCI officials knew not only was lance doping, but everyone else, and they did nothing.

You cant clean up cycling without cleaning house. Period

no one is arguing that ... if you read my comments - i have been the most vocal of the lack of accountability by the UCI and that both current and ex-presidents need to go ... in fact, that was the only thing i wanted from lance ... but he covered for them just like they have for him ...

the problem with the UCI is you can not have a mandate of growing the sport and then regulating it as well ... they work counter to each other in many ways ...

no one is excusing any of the other players in this story ... but at the end of the day ... lance is the head of this snake ... not the UCI ... the co-conspirators extends well beyond lance and the UCI ... it includes Nike, Oakley and politicians even ... and at the centre of it is lance ...

but outside of all that ... yes, every hero has their flaws but this guy was an asshole ... a guy most of us would never want as a friend ... a guy who would sue his former best friends for telling the truth ... this guy is not a hero ... he's only a hero in myth ... a hero based on lies and fraud ... a hero has integrity - lance has none ...

I disagree about the players being the story, or at least the main story. As with the MLB, the UCI and other major officials knew about what was going on. They could have exposed not only lance, but also the zillion other cyclists who were doping and cheating. What they did was just as much a criminal act as anything Lance did. And it involves literally the entire cycling world, the cyclists themselves, team managers, doctors, UCI officials and on and on. Lance is 1 piece of an enormous puzzle.

Same with the MLB, Bonds and Mcgwire and Canseco doped. But, they were allowed to do so, largely because of Selig and other high level officials in baseball, who knew they were doping and said and did nothing.

In both cases, the reason the higher level people never said anything was because the sport had gone from the dumps, to being the biggest sport in the world and generating massive amounts of income, not only for the cyclists, but also those higher level officials.

Had either sport shown a modicum of ethical or moral fiber in this, we wouldnt be discussing this. Drug testing should have been stronger and harder to fake out. There should be monitors to make sure UCI and whoever does testing in baseball actually does their job. There should be complete transparency in both sports. And those who run the sports should feel its their duty to weed out and punish the cheaters and dopers, period.

What seems to have been MLB and cycling's problem was that they let the cheating an doping grow so huge, so rampant, that everyone was doing it. They refused to punish the dopers. And suddenly the biggest names in both sports were setting records and cheating at the same time, all with the expressed permission of MLB and cycling.

Cycling had a major dilemma, they became this worldwide phenomenon because of lance, raked in millions tha they hadnt when he wasnt racing. So they could either tell what they knew": that lance and 80 percent of the peloton was doping and lose respect, get bad press, and lose millions, or they could sweep it under the rug and continue the charade. Lance wasnt the only guy who made money during these years.

MLB faced the same thing. Post strike, baseball was at a low point. Then suddenly you had the entire nation captivated by 2 home run sluggers who it seemed, both may very well break Maris's home run record. Millions of money was made, baseball was on the front page, even non sports fans knew who Mcgwire and Sosa were. MLB knew they were doping and everyone else was as well. So they had a choice. Either expose to the world that the entire sport was doping, or continue the charade

Both organizations made the same decision, and it was wrong, and criminal.

Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.

tygart is exactly right. USADA should be shut down. its not doing its job. Their job isnt to g after one cyclist and then wipe their hands and go "sports all clean now, we did our job". Their job is to make sure cycling is clean and that dopers and cheaters, all dopers and cheater are exposed and not allowed to compete. Further USADAs job as exposers of cheating is also to speak out

USADA sure as hell wasnt doing squat in 2000-2005. Nor has it done anything since.

They've staked their claim on this idea, this false idea, that when lance armstrong is fully exposed, and fined, jailed, stripped of all his money, that then the sport will be clean and can breathe easy.

Thats just not the case.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

Its like with Abu Gharib. Yes, the low level soldiers and guards who are in those pictures putting dog collars on inmates deserved punishment and jail time. But, thats only half the story. The other major part is the higher level officials who knew this was going on and did nothing and said nothing. And to this day, no higher ups have been punished.

I don't know why you keep making these odd comparisons between sport and war. sport is a game. it's not comparable to real life sacrifice.

this thread is about lance doping. is there a much bigger problem in pro sports beyond the scope of one high profile case? of course there is. no one disputes that. if the UCI was putting Lance up to doing what he did by threatening means, fine, that would be another issue. NO ONE FORCED LANCE TO ACT THE WAY HE DID. No one forced McGuire or Sosa or Bonds or anyone else to do what they did. But Lance chose to do what he did, and in the context of this thread, that makes him GUILTY of being an asshole.

I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.

Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.

UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.

This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.

If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.

As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "

The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.

Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.

UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.

This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.

If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.

As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "

The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue

you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.

equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.

This thread involves many things though. Because it wasnt just one cyclist or team that doped, and because it involves UCI officials and other higher ups covering up the doping, theres really no way to focus just on one cyclist. If you are, you arent looking at the full picture.

Plus the thread has been answered. Theres no longer a question mark at the end of the thread title. We know he doped.

The next step should be to completely clean house. And thats done by looking at doping and cheating in cycling in a real and clear manner. You look at everything that occured and you clean house. You punish, band and fine those who doped and covered it up, and you create a new code of conduct for the sport, new rules, stricter drug tests, flat out rules like: you are caught doping you are banned for life etc... You find out how the dopers eluded the tests and you plug up the holes and you make the tests harder to fake.

Theres no other way to do this. You cant clean up cycling without dealing with the other stuff. Its NOT done by denying the sport has a major cheating problem, and suggesting that there was one cheat and one bad team.

The problems of cycling go way beyond a guy named Lance Armstrong. And thats sad for the sport, and for fans. But until people deal with this in a real manner, the sport wont be clean.

As I said, criminal charges should be filed against any and all persons who knew about ANY doping whether it involved doping on US Postal, or any other team or cyclist and willingly covered it up.

musicismylife78 wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

I just think its common sense. One rider and one slugger didnt dope. it was everybody. and the cover up involved everyone.

Im interested in cleaning up sports. I was a fan of Mcgwire, and was a fan of Lance. I know what its like to put your faith in someone and be disappointed like that. I also know the truth of what went on. And it wasnt just one person. never was.

UCI is as much a criminal organization as Lance's doping program was. For one, Lance doping program included only his team. The UCI and others allowed the doping of 80 percent of the total peloton, other teams and such. That to me is way worse.

This didnt just happen in isolation. This wasnt just one rogue cyclist who ran some Omerta organization. This involved hundreds of riders, and many folks who's sports uniform was a suit and tie.

If you arent for dealing with this issue in a wide manner, punishing EVERYONE involved, riders, officials, managers, you arent for cleaning up the sport. You just arent.

As for sports not being equivilant to war, heres a quote from Orwell:

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting. "

The equivilancy with war also is valid because only low level people get punished. Yes that soldier who shot up that village in Iraq should be in prison, but what about his superiors and the higher ups who allow such things to happen?

Anyone who thinks this is a case of one cyclist just flat out isnt understanding the issue

you aren't listening. no one thinks this is a case of one cyclist. we just happen to be talking about him in this thread, because of the sheer impact this guy has had on the sport, previously in a positive way, so he is also heavily responsible for its downfall.

equating someone who plays a game for a living with someone who puts their life on the line for their country is a revolting suggestion.

This thread involves many things though. Because it wasnt just one cyclist or team that doped, and because it involves UCI officials and other higher ups covering up the doping, theres really no way to focus just on one cyclist. If you are, you arent looking at the full picture.

Plus the thread has been answered. Theres no longer a question mark at the end of the thread title. We know he doped.

The next step should be to completely clean house. And thats done by looking at doping and cheating in cycling in a real and clear manner. You look at everything that occured and you clean house. You punish, band and fine those who doped and covered it up, and you create a new code of conduct for the sport, new rules, stricter drug tests, flat out rules like: you are caught doping you are banned for life etc... You find out how the dopers eluded the tests and you plug up the holes and you make the tests harder to fake.

Theres no other way to do this. You cant clean up cycling without dealing with the other stuff. Its NOT done by denying the sport has a major cheating problem, and suggesting that there was one cheat and one bad team.

The problems of cycling go way beyond a guy named Lance Armstrong. And thats sad for the sport, and for fans. But until people deal with this in a real manner, the sport wont be clean.

As I said, criminal charges should be filed against any and all persons who knew about ANY doping whether it involved doping on US Postal, or any other team or cyclist and willingly covered it up.

44 pages about a cheating cyclist.

imagine if he was involved in a popular sport?

pdalowsky wrote:

44 pages about a cheating cyclist.

imagine if he was involved in a popular sport?

music has written about 2/3 of them

sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

sports popularity is misleading ... i think most people would not know that cricket is the second most popular sport behind football (soccer) ... cycling is more popular than one thinks ... it's especially in huge in europe ...

exactly. the biggest sports in the world are NOT the ones that are most popular in the US and Canada.

Ah im only taking the piss guys, and do Note im in the UK. I dont know anyone here who watches people bike up and down hills, but im aware they do.

Yet - i would say the sports popularity was boosted massively by having Lance be part of it.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

kinda like american baseball. I only watched when McGuire and Sosa were chasing the record. Other than that, you even see people in the stands falling asleep, never mind watching it at home on a comfy couch.

you are so wrong about that, hugh freaking dillion :nono: :fp: