The Relativity of Distance

2

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    Dru_Cortez wrote:
    In theory,
    the human in this scenario
    is the only entity with a concept of distance.

    The crow, the ant, the micro-organism,
    none of these can gauge the distance to the mailbox
    using any concrete form of measurement.
    Only the human can estimate the distance
    in terms of something that others might understand,
    like metres or yards.
    To the others, it's simply a LONG way to go.

    Distance may be relative,
    but it is the awareness of how to conceive + quantify distance
    that makes it universal,
    at least for humanfolk!

    Cheers.

    Interesting thoughts here, Dru_Cortez. I do wonder about the theory that humans are the only ones with a concept of distance. Might not they be able to perceive distance through sight or smell or a combination of senses without the use of devices? This also gets closer to at least one objective of the scenario presented which has to do with certain natural as opposed to human processes.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux wrote:
    Dru_Cortez wrote:
    In theory,
    the human in this scenario
    is the only entity with a concept of distance.

    The crow, the ant, the micro-organism,
    none of these can gauge the distance to the mailbox
    using any concrete form of measurement.
    Only the human can estimate the distance
    in terms of something that others might understand,
    like metres or yards.
    To the others, it's simply a LONG way to go.

    Distance may be relative,
    but it is the awareness of how to conceive + quantify distance
    that makes it universal,
    at least for humanfolk!

    Cheers.

    Interesting thoughts here, Dru_Cortez. I do wonder about the theory that humans are the only ones with a concept of distance. Might not they be able to perceive distance through sight or smell or a combination of senses without the use of devices? This also gets closer to at least one objective of the scenario presented which has to do with certain natural as opposed to human processes.
    I don't think we can know how the minds of other creatures truly process distance, among other things.

    For example, monkeys who make their way by hopping from tree branch to tree branch. It involves calculation on their part.

    Or, our cats getting ready to jump onto the counter...they'll sit there, wiggle their butt, contemplate the right move. They know how high they need to leap and are gauging themselves. They won't even try to do a straight jump to the top of the fridge because they know they can't make it. They may not know it's six feet to the jump because we came up with the term of feet, but I think they have their own language, if you will, that does the same.

    (PS, Brian - this is a nice little respite for my brain in the midst of...today. Thanks.)
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    hedonist wrote:
    I don't think we can know how the minds of other creatures truly process distance, among other things.

    For example, monkeys who make their way by hopping from tree branch to tree branch. It involves calculation on their part.

    Or, our cats getting ready to jump onto the counter...they'll sit there, wiggle their butt, contemplate the right move. They know how high they need to leap and are gauging themselves. They won't even try to do a straight jump to the top of the fridge because they know they can't make it. They may not know it's six feet to the jump because we came up with the term of feet, but I think they have their own language, if you will, that does the same.

    (PS, Brian - this is a nice little respite for my brain in the midst of...today. Thanks.)

    You're quite welcome, Hedonist. The odd thing is that I was up half the night because at the end of the day we watched the movie "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close", a film based a book by Jonathan Foer that takes a fictitious look at a boys struggle to find answers in the wake of 9/11. I can watch horror movies, end-of-the-world movies, The Shining or anything obviously fictitious and sleep just fine. Films about or based on real events that are horrible are much more disturbing to me, so I was unable to sleep and began to meditate on this concept of linear and non-linear distance (and thinking) that relates to chaos theory as well as natural vs human actions.

    And then today happened.

    Yes most if not all of are in need of consolation and distraction.

    The lounge is definitely open and-- at least metaphorically-- the first round is on me.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    i watched this brilliant british show called COAST and in one of the episodes they spoke about how determining the length of the coastlines was dependent upon the instrument used... and how the measurements on that instrument were broken down. like if you used one of those metre wheels you werent gonna get as fine a measurement as when you used a ruler that had millimetre divisions.
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  • STAYSEA
    STAYSEA Posts: 3,814
    the ant might dig a tunnel.

    How was the term "wormhole" coined? No one else here Time travels?
    A Tesseract concept.

    :corn:
    image
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    STAYSEA wrote:
    the ant might dig a tunnel.

    How was the term "wormhole" coined? No one else here Time travels?
    A Tesseract concept.

    :corn:

    i time travel all the time. ;) 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
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  • supersonicyears
    supersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    catefrances wrote:
    STAYSEA wrote:
    the ant might dig a tunnel.

    How was the term "wormhole" coined? No one else here Time travels?
    A Tesseract concept.

    :corn:

    i time travel all the time. ;) 8-)
    Only in my sleep. I wanna be a looper....

    How did this brainy thread end up in AET. I'm really enoying the read though.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    supersonicyears wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    STAYSEA wrote:
    the ant might dig a tunnel.

    How was the term "wormhole" coined? No one else here Time travels?
    A Tesseract concept.

    :corn:

    i time travel all the time. ;) 8-)
    Only in my sleep. I wanna be a looper....

    How did this brainy thread end up in AET. I'm really enoying the read though.

    Because it would deconstruct in AMT. :lol:

    And speaking of deconstructing- part of the story has to do with equations which, at one point in time were mostly linear. That's where our idea of progress and mechanization comes from and our tendency to place all our chips on technology. The house and the mail box allegory has a lot to do with deconstructing linear equations which, so I'm told, led to the the idea of non-linear equations and eventually led to chaos theory. This has it's best analogies found in fluid dynamics but to fully understand that I'd have to track down my old friend Larry who, at the bright young age of twenty two or three received his PhD in Mathematical Computation of Turbulent Fluid Flow at MIT... (or try reading Manning's Grassland, from where this whole train of thought originated)... but I probably won't see Larry again until 2019 so...

    umm, yeah, Chaos Theory. Well that's where nature comes in because most of what happens in nature is essentially chaotic... but a kind of chaos that forms an ever moving flow of change and balance- an intriguing dance that mechanisms- so far- haven't been able to reproduce.

    I'm for putting my chips in with nature but I don't run the table so... well... what next?

    (And please, I would love it if someone would explain time. Lines are so easy to draw but I can't seem to make a picture of time.)
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    Right about now I feel compelled to write something about how sometimes the line or path just seems to be going down and down only. Thank the gods of chaos and all good people that eventually things will look up again.

    Basin and range, basin and range. What goes down sooner or later goes up.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • whispering hands
    whispering hands Under your skin Posts: 13,527
    The ant ran over the micro-organism, crushing it, the crow shit
    on the ant, decimating it, and my neighbor shot the crow for
    eating his corn. Damn it!! Got to go get the fucking mail myself.

    No seriously.. Animals DO have a contracted sense of distance just not
    relative distance. For example.. The ant leaves a tiny pheromone trail so
    that regardless of the distance it travels, it can always find the way back
    to its nest, and the same, any other ant in this particular
    colony can follow the same trail to and fro. Note you always see ants
    scrambling over one another along the same path, those WITH burdens, are
    returning to the nest. Those unlaiden by burdens are those returning to the
    food source. This pheromone trail is what theyarefollowing.

    The Crow, has an internal mapping pattern in its brain that literally counts
    Out the beats of their wings breaths in drift time and degrees and breaths
    during banks. They also use sight mapping, so when you see a Crow land and
    start tapping on wood with its beak, they are trying to locate flock mates.
    They only do this when the map has changed. However, they have learned to
    adapt enough to take that vehicles move into account. They are very clever, and
    they are constantly adapting to the changes we make in their world. Not only
    does the Crow know how far your hypothetical mail box is, he knows how the fuck
    to find it if you were to move it.

    The Micro-organism is fucked!
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,621
    here's my pet microorganism. damn thing pooped in the living room this morning :x :

    250px-E_coli_at_10000x,_original.jpg
    www.myspace.com
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    Because it would deconstruct in AMT. :lol:

    And speaking of deconstructing- part of the story has to do with equations which, at one point in time were mostly linear. That's where our idea of progress and mechanization comes from and our tendency to place all our chips on technology. The house and the mail box allegory has a lot to do with deconstructing linear equations which, so I'm told, led to the the idea of non-linear equations and eventually led to chaos theory. This has it's best analogies found in fluid dynamics but to fully understand that I'd have to track down my old friend Larry who, at the bright young age of twenty two or three received his PhD in Mathematical Computation of Turbulent Fluid Flow at MIT... (or try reading Manning's Grassland, from where this whole train of thought originated)... but I probably won't see Larry again until 2019 so...

    umm, yeah, Chaos Theory. Well that's where nature comes in because most of what happens in nature is essentially chaotic... but a kind of chaos that forms an ever moving flow of change and balance- an intriguing dance that mechanisms- so far- haven't been able to reproduce.

    I'm for putting my chips in with nature but I don't run the table so... well... what next?

    (And please, I would love it if someone would explain time. Lines are so easy to draw but I can't seem to make a picture of time.)


    why should time be linear when everything in nature is cyclic?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,621
    catefrances wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Because it would deconstruct in AMT. :lol:

    And speaking of deconstructing- part of the story has to do with equations which, at one point in time were mostly linear. That's where our idea of progress and mechanization comes from and our tendency to place all our chips on technology. The house and the mail box allegory has a lot to do with deconstructing linear equations which, so I'm told, led to the the idea of non-linear equations and eventually led to chaos theory. This has it's best analogies found in fluid dynamics but to fully understand that I'd have to track down my old friend Larry who, at the bright young age of twenty two or three received his PhD in Mathematical Computation of Turbulent Fluid Flow at MIT... (or try reading Manning's Grassland, from where this whole train of thought originated)... but I probably won't see Larry again until 2019 so...

    umm, yeah, Chaos Theory. Well that's where nature comes in because most of what happens in nature is essentially chaotic... but a kind of chaos that forms an ever moving flow of change and balance- an intriguing dance that mechanisms- so far- haven't been able to reproduce.

    I'm for putting my chips in with nature but I don't run the table so... well... what next?

    (And please, I would love it if someone would explain time. Lines are so easy to draw but I can't seem to make a picture of time.)


    why should time be linear when everything in nature is cyclic?

    do not question the OP. :x
    www.myspace.com
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    The Juggler wrote:
    do not question the OP. :x


    thanks for the advice but you know ill just do what i want. :P
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 46,798
    question are the house and the mailbox at the same elevation? Where does the crow start from ? the roof , ground, or other area of roost?

    Are we taking into account where the human was IN the house when they decided to get the mail?

    With the USPS in dire financial straights, will this even be an issue that much longer.....
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  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,621
    is the ant able to use gps to determine the quickest possible route?
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    catefrances wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Because it would deconstruct in AMT. :lol:

    And speaking of deconstructing- part of the story has to do with equations which, at one point in time were mostly linear. That's where our idea of progress and mechanization comes from and our tendency to place all our chips on technology. The house and the mail box allegory has a lot to do with deconstructing linear equations which, so I'm told, led to the the idea of non-linear equations and eventually led to chaos theory. This has it's best analogies found in fluid dynamics but to fully understand that I'd have to track down my old friend Larry who, at the bright young age of twenty two or three received his PhD in Mathematical Computation of Turbulent Fluid Flow at MIT... (or try reading Manning's Grassland, from where this whole train of thought originated)... but I probably won't see Larry again until 2019 so...

    umm, yeah, Chaos Theory. Well that's where nature comes in because most of what happens in nature is essentially chaotic... but a kind of chaos that forms an ever moving flow of change and balance- an intriguing dance that mechanisms- so far- haven't been able to reproduce.

    I'm for putting my chips in with nature but I don't run the table so... well... what next?

    (And please, I would love it if someone would explain time. Lines are so easy to draw but I can't seem to make a picture of time.)


    why should time be linear when everything in nature is cyclic?

    The line represents linear equations, linear thinking, the mechanistic world. Time? I was hoping you would explain that to me!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    whispering hands wrote:

    The Micro-organism is fucked!

    Only if getting the mail is the focus. If it's the journey, the microorganism is the luckiest of all. :)
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    why should time be linear when everything in nature is cyclic?

    The line represents linear equations, linear thinking, the mechanistic world. Time? I was hoping you would explain that to me!

    i think id need at least another bottle of pinot noir to explain time to you brian. ive got some free time in march if thats suitable for you. ;) 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 44,444
    catefrances wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    why should time be linear when everything in nature is cyclic?

    The line represents linear equations, linear thinking, the mechanistic world. Time? I was hoping you would explain that to me!

    i think id need at least another bottle of pinot noir to explain time to you brian. ive got some free time in march if thats suitable for you. ;) 8-)

    All good! :D :thumbup: :wave:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

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