Interesting Article - Norway/Taxes/Hard Work

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  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Personally I don't know if it working in those countries...what are their wait times like, are their plenty of family doctors, etc..

    I know it's not working in Canada...how much more money needs to be funnelled into the system to make it work right? Everyone has an opinion, my Doctor says theirs not enough Doctors, a neighbour of mine who works at a hospital says they the OR's are under utilized and the back log could be leaded if the surgeons were allowed more OR time.

    My point really was that we were charged a health care tax on top of paying pretty generous taxes to the government and we are still waiting over a year for procedure's or do as I did and go outside the system. So for anyone to tell me that the government is better off with my money than me is full of it.

    I don't know enough about those other countries system to know if they work or not. I am pretty confident in saying our system is fucked and will only get worse.

    here is a look at health care spending per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_s ... per-person

    compare canada to all the other socialist type countries ... it's way under ...

    when you underfund a program - of course its gonna fail ... what do you think the conservatives want to do? ... they want to privatize ... and how better to make an argument for it then by making sure the system fails?

    Well you say more monies are needed, if thats the case then we as a country/province need to prioitize how our tax dollars are spent. I doubt as a province we can afford to be all to everyone. And maybe the governments need to quit wasting tax dollars and spending us into oblivion, it cost a lot of money to service our provincial debt, money that could be utilized better in health care.

    Personally what where doing isn't working and the system is broken, we need to change our way of thinking.

    Myself personally I had a Podiatrist perform my surgery at a cost to me, even though I pay generous amounts of taxes and a health care premium, waiting for an orthopaedic surgeon was another 6-9 months after the initial 6 month wait for a consult. I really have no clue why these professionals are left out of OHIP coverage...guaranteed that these professionals cost far less than have similar procedures performed in a hospital.

    Every government going back to the late 80s is responsible for the decline of health, as far as i'm concerned if we don't start bringing in other professionals, changing the way service are delivered, allow clinics to perform procedures outside the hospital etc, etc, the system will eventually collapse...especially as the population get older and older.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    Well, I found a song call The Canadian Dream by Sam Roberts. I have yet to listen to it, but judging it's lyrical impact, I'll not hold you guys to this song. Lyrically, he makes the Black Eyed Peas look like understudies to Bob Dylan. :)

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-canadian-dream-lyrics-sam-roberts.html

    :lol:
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Here is what the Urban Dictionary gave me. It would be easier if you just told me, but here they are:

    1. Like the American Dream, except you follow your dreams and still help a brother out. And you don't exploit people.

    2. Self employed, driving the company car, married to a wife who works, good credit, a house, and a cat and dog, and a good retirement fund in their 30's-40's, bills paid on time all the time and most importantly..good health + free gas.

    3. To live off welfare without ever working or putting any effort.

    4. To be a parasite, usually depending on government handouts to survive.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=canadian%20dream

    i'm surprised you actually found something ... my point was that there really isn't a canadian dream ... whatever national ethos we were nurturing has long fallen by the way side ... this urban dictionary definition is a bit of a joke ...

    can you give me an example of this national ethos that has fallen by the way side. i disagree with your comment that there really isn't a Canadian dream.
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    Jason P wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    i'm surprised you actually found something ... my point was that there really isn't a canadian dream ... whatever national ethos we were nurturing has long fallen by the way side ... this urban dictionary definition is a bit of a joke ...
    Well, I found a song call The Canadian Dream by Sam Roberts. I have yet to listen to it, but judging it's lyrical impact, I'll not hold you guys to this song. Lyrically, he makes the Black Eyed Peas look like understudies to Bob Dylan. :)

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-canadian-dream-lyrics-sam-roberts.html

    he is actually pretty good but this songs is not one of his best.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    can you give me an example of this national ethos that has fallen by the way side. i disagree with your comment that there really isn't a Canadian dream.

    i think health care would be a good start ... we used to believe in socialized health care ... but no longer ... as with my discussions with lukin ... by programming it to fail - we have turned a lot of people off of it ...

    you live in toronto right? ... we elected rob ford as a mayor ... if that isn't a sign of a crumbling ethos ... what is?
  • RW81233
    RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    Jason you could just learn to homebrew and say screw the bars. Now seriously, as someone who puts in between 25 and 70 hours every week depending on the time of year (average of 45-50 I'd say), if I'm trying to publish or reading to publish, answering student and higher up emails, teaching, meetings, etc., a dedicated 31 hour workweek sounds fucking fantastic. Ok so I don't go out to dinner with my family, instead I have 14 extra hours a week at home with my wife and son. We cook dinner, and brew beer, wine, and liquor together. We have more time to take walks around the neighborhood, play on playgrounds, check out the countryside. If any of us get sick we get taken care of, schools are top notch, and my neighbors have similar positive life experiences (per: Kenny O). What is bad about that (of course as many have pointed out much of this is dependent on oil reserves at the present moment) experience in and of itself?

    Do we really hate our families that much? Do we really want to put in 40, 50, 60, 70 hours? Do we really need all those shiny toys because the human experience has become less humane and more individual?

    I've lived on both ends of the spectrum: my family was on welfare, living in rural upstate New York when I was young, and then got a scholarship to private school and married someone from a family of 1 percenters. On the one end we were always scratching and clawing to get anything and the personal shared experiences brought about through collective and/or individual sacrifice. A lot of "giving" and showing "care" in this situation had to do with personal connections even if it was as little as my mom baking apple crisp when we come to visit because she knows its my favorite dessert. Conversely, with my in-laws it's all about iwhatevers, SUVs, and the Winter home in Florida. Cooking a meal is not revered in the same way as going to a 5 star restaurant with wine pairings. The latter is definitely fun and interesting, but most of them (even myself to an extent) are so focused on their individual situations that actually "doing" something for someone else besides buying them a cool toy is almost out of the question. Essentially, and this is the question Polaris has been asking, taking the logistical nightmare that implementing socialism in the US out of it, would we as a country be able to survive without the cool stuff (or the belief that through hard work someday that they will get the cool stuff) so that most everyone could live comfortably?
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I will say for me, who definitely leans to the libertarian ideal, it isn't about me...it is about the expectation that a community take care of itself without coercion. My ideal utopia would be a community that took care of each other when necessary, but rewarded innovation, entrepreneurial spirit, hard work and maximum effort handsomely. That isn't so bad is it? How that would happen would be up to each community...I think gov'ts role should be limited and should be thought of as local first, then national...

    but would you agree that in general americans are a me society?

    the thing with your utopian society is that it is inherently socialist ... communities taking after each other ... that is a socialist ideal ... what is universal health care but the community looking after each other!?

    you are right, but it isn't a coerced socialist ideal. That is the problem I have with it in a gov't form. Force. It breeds resentment of giving in some people.

    I don't know if I would agree that we are a me society...that might be what shows up in New York, LA and other large cities, but that isn't what I see everyday in rural MN when I drive home at night...But we are very much more likely to be me first on domestic issues and we first on international issues...In a very general sense of course
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • RW81233
    RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    Ahhh now I see much of our differences in thought Mike. Generally the people I meet in MN will do anything or a lot for one another on their own because the culture their is more collective (maybe the Nordic influence?). Out here on the East Coast that shit doesn't fly. People don't even stop for others in crosswalks even though it's a state law.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    you are right, but it isn't a coerced socialist ideal. That is the problem I have with it in a gov't form. Force. It breeds resentment of giving in some people.

    I don't know if I would agree that we are a me society...that might be what shows up in New York, LA and other large cities, but that isn't what I see everyday in rural MN when I drive home at night...But we are very much more likely to be me first on domestic issues and we first on international issues...In a very general sense of course

    well ... if one truly believes in the ideal - then it shouldn't breed resentment ... of course, if you really don't believe in it - i can see why one would build that resentment ...

    the US stance on global issues are definitely based on "me" first ... why do you think the US whether it be democrat or republican has never signed onto any global warming protocol? ... it's stance against arms bans and mines is definitely a "me" first approach aimed at protecting the defense industry ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,305
    RW81233 wrote:
    Jason you could just learn to homebrew and say screw the bars.
    Homebrews don't come w/ lovely ladies. ;)

    Unless Norway is more awesome then legend says .... :think:
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • RW81233
    RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    Jason P wrote:
    RW81233 wrote:
    Jason you could just learn to homebrew and say screw the bars.
    Homebrews don't come w/ lovely ladies. ;)

    Unless Norway is more awesome then legend says .... :think:
    with all that extra time from not having to work you could make the most excellent homebrews and wines then woo the ladies with your amazing abilities.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    you are right, but it isn't a coerced socialist ideal. That is the problem I have with it in a gov't form. Force. It breeds resentment of giving in some people.

    I don't know if I would agree that we are a me society...that might be what shows up in New York, LA and other large cities, but that isn't what I see everyday in rural MN when I drive home at night...But we are very much more likely to be me first on domestic issues and we first on international issues...In a very general sense of course

    well ... if one truly believes in the ideal - then it shouldn't breed resentment ... of course, if you really don't believe in it - i can see why one would build that resentment ...

    the US stance on global issues are definitely based on "me" first ... why do you think the US whether it be democrat or republican has never signed onto any global warming protocol? ... it's stance against arms bans and mines is definitely a "me" first approach aimed at protecting the defense industry ...


    nope. Sorry, but the use of force is the piece that can add resentment, it has nothing to do with not supporting "giving". That is kind of a grandiose assumption.

    but you, and others, will make your assumptions about those that don't like the social safety net system in place right now, I can't stop that.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    nope. Sorry, but the use of force is the piece that can add resentment, it has nothing to do with not supporting "giving". That is kind of a grandiose assumption.

    but you, and others, will make your assumptions about those that don't like the social safety net system in place right now, I can't stop that.

    dude ... do you believe in a police force or a fire department? ... do you feel forced to have to pay for services such as those? ...

    haha ... not sure why you have your back up over this ... i pretty much said that your particular belief in the libertarian model would probably work so long as everyone believed in it ... and i completely understand why many people do not like the social safety net system in place ... because its a clustercuss of epic proportions with inefficient spending and entitlement programs ... but that in it of itself does not make it a failed system ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    My biggest problem with socialism is that you have too trust politicians do the right thing...can anyone honestly say they trust politicians? For me to even consider socialism as an option it would have to be presented to me in a way that pays those in charge of running and providing the service reasonable wages, not outrage wages, remove nepotism, put in a process that severely penalizes those involved involved in corruption, including politicians. Over here in Canada or the US does any one believe a system like this is possible? I don't.

    Here in Canada we have socialized medicine...just a few weeks ago the Ontario government rewarded the 2nd in command with a new contract paying 460 grand even though his department is responsible for a billion wasted on e health, the air ambulance is under scrutiny for lost lost lives and costing a fortune and wait times continue to be a problem.

    Sorry highly doubt socialism will work in selfish, greedy, NA.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    nope. Sorry, but the use of force is the piece that can add resentment, it has nothing to do with not supporting "giving". That is kind of a grandiose assumption.

    but you, and others, will make your assumptions about those that don't like the social safety net system in place right now, I can't stop that.

    dude ... do you believe in a police force or a fire department? ... do you feel forced to have to pay for services such as those? ...

    haha ... not sure why you have your back up over this ... i pretty much said that your particular belief in the libertarian model would probably work so long as everyone believed in it ... and i completely understand why many people do not like the social safety net system in place ... because its a clustercuss of epic proportions with inefficient spending and entitlement programs ... but that in it of itself does not make it a failed system ...

    I wasn't referring to police fire or any of that. Social safety net, social welfare programs. That is where the problems come in. What should the gov't provide and what shouldn't it I guess is what it boils down to...
    I don't have my back up over it at all. Just don't like the assumptions that people make about those that don't want a socialist system of gov't being all about themselves.

    And you are right. To make any society work we need to work together to some extent. Probably why ours isn't working well at the moment.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I wasn't referring to police fire or any of that. Social safety net, social welfare programs. That is where the problems come in. What should the gov't provide and what shouldn't it I guess is what it boils down to...
    I don't have my back up over it at all. Just don't like the assumptions that people make about those that don't want a socialist system of gov't being all about themselves.

    And you are right. To make any society work we need to work together to some extent. Probably why ours isn't working well at the moment.

    but they are social services ... and because we all agree that there should be police no one ever claims to feel forced to pay for it ... so, if we all agree that the community should look after each other - then there should be social programs put in place and we shouldn't feel forced to pay for that as well ...

    what assumptions are you referring to? ... i am guessing you are referring to me as i seem to be the primary person responding in this thread ... :lol:
  • MotoDC
    MotoDC Posts: 947
    polaris_x wrote:
    what assumptions are you referring to? ... i am guessing you are referring to me as i seem to be the primary person responding in this thread ... :lol:
    Your insistence on saying that folks who don't agree with the socialist approach are "me-first". I suppose you've mostly said that America is me-first, but since that's the only non-socialist (which is debatable, since really we're all on a spectrum here) country I've seen discussed, one is tempted to employ the commutative property.
  • RW81233
    RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    MotoDC wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    what assumptions are you referring to? ... i am guessing you are referring to me as i seem to be the primary person responding in this thread ... :lol:
    Your insistence on saying that folks who don't agree with the socialist approach are "me-first". I suppose you've mostly said that America is me-first, but since that's the only non-socialist (which is debatable, since really we're all on a spectrum here) country I've seen discussed, one is tempted to employ the commutative property.
    Isn't the U.S. as a whole qualitatively me-first? Don't we celebrate that via the "American Dream" mythology? Yes we do nice things for one another, but not consistently nor to a point that would be overly detrimental to our individual bottom line because there is no cause to do so. I don't think Polaris is wrong in her assumption since its based in several years of evidence.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I wasn't referring to police fire or any of that. Social safety net, social welfare programs. That is where the problems come in. What should the gov't provide and what shouldn't it I guess is what it boils down to...
    I don't have my back up over it at all. Just don't like the assumptions that people make about those that don't want a socialist system of gov't being all about themselves.

    And you are right. To make any society work we need to work together to some extent. Probably why ours isn't working well at the moment.

    but they are social services ... and because we all agree that there should be police no one ever claims to feel forced to pay for it ... so, if we all agree that the community should look after each other - then there should be social programs put in place and we shouldn't feel forced to pay for that as well ...

    what assumptions are you referring to? ... i am guessing you are referring to me as i seem to be the primary person responding in this thread ... :lol:

    contrary to what you may think, I do talk to people in real life too :lol::lol:

    I have read it in multiple threads over the years...Police aren't a social service by the way...they are a civil service. Protection from someone infringing on my rights is much different than giving someone who is down on their luck help. also, technically paying for police is just as selfish as anything else.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    contrary to what you may think, I do talk to people in real life too :lol::lol:

    I have read it in multiple threads over the years...Police aren't a social service by the way...they are a civil service. Protection from someone infringing on my rights is much different than giving someone who is down on their luck help. also, technically paying for police is just as selfish as anything else.

    really!? ... i thought you were a BOT paid for by the Ron Paul campaign!? ... :lol:

    well ... that's really semantics ... civil or social ... they are put in place for the greater good of society ...

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