Interesting Article - Norway/Taxes/Hard Work

polaris_x

MotoDC wrote:

Causation is a tricky beast. So...what exactly are the conditions that got us where we are? And did you just say that america is a great place to live? Or was that just a convenient excuse to juxtapose it with something from our past?

great is subjective ... i simply responded to someone else belief that it is great ...

do i think it's great!? ... not really ... some spots are indeed great but overall - i think no ... but that's me ...

polaris_x

are people really saying that norwegians are living in some kind of trap and that they really don't want to live in a socialist state and the only reason they do so is because they are forced to!???

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

are people really saying that norwegians are living in some kind of trap and that they really don't want to live in a socialist state and the only reason they do so is because they are forced to!???

don't know about whether the norwegians want to leave or not...but the vast majority of the people in this world can not pick up and go. they are essentially forced to live within the system they are born. What I want to know is what gives politicians the right to determine our path? is their really any true democracies left in this world? and I don't consider voting every four years a democracy? that's voting a dictator in every 4 years!!!

kenny olav

Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it But the weather I could deal with. The summers there are actually ideal. It is orderly, peaceful, and all of the buildings there are aesthetically charming. Bergen in particular is one of the most beautiful cities I've seen. I hope to own an apartment there someday, no matter how small.

I did unfortunately see some creeping Americanism in the city of Kristiansand, which is on the south coast of Norway. There was a McDonald's built into an old bank. Still better than the ugly ass McDonalds that litter the American landscape. Funny thing is there are very few restaurants in Norway. They all have huge freezers and walk in refrigerated pantries. They eat very well there and don't waste much food.

Shops do tend to close early in Norway. They like to spend time at home with their families. Silly Norwegians... :roll:

Every day I see happy faces from Norway in my Facebook feed.... they never bitch about anything, unlike a lot of my fellow Americans I'm connected with. My family would not have the same quality of life in they lived here in America. They aren't rich, and they don't need to be to have a great life, unlike here. I plan to spend my golden years there, and be buried in the land my mother was born in.... or perhaps have my body burned in a Viking funeral pyre.

Jeanwah

brianlux wrote:

I was just thinking about how most American Indian communities were a lot like this- "socialist" in a way. Everyone had pretty much the same stuff. Everyone pretty much had their roll, their job. Most of them found places to live where the earth provided what they needed. Everyone was pretty much happy. Not all, but most. I think a big reason we in our society can't fathom these ideas is because our way of living allows us to work and plan and scheme to get more stuff. But does that "more stuff" make us happier? Don't get me wrong- I'm as addicted to this life style as everyone- we were born into it. But I certainly can imagine living differently.

I did a sociology paper a while ago about the "American Dream" and happiness. (And no, happiness does not come owning "stuff") What I found was an interview with Danish teenagers and a question asked of them: Why is Denmark the happiest of countries? What can Americans do to increase their happiness? One kid answered simply, Expect less and you'd be more happy. That's it in a nutshell.

Jeanwah

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

are people really saying that norwegians are living in some kind of trap and that they really don't want to live in a socialist state and the only reason they do so is because they are forced to!???

don't know about whether the norwegians want to leave or not...but the vast majority of the people in this world can not pick up and go. they are essentially forced to live within the system they are born. What I want to know is what gives politicians the right to determine our path? is their really any true democracies left in this world? and I don't consider voting every four years a democracy? that's voting a dictator in every 4 years!!!

See, I don't agree with this. As Nate Fisher, Jr. said: "I'm just saying, you only get one life. There's...no rules, no judgements except for those you accept or create for yourself, and once it's over, it's over. Dreamless sleep forever and ever. So why not be happy while you're here, really, why not?"

No one is being kept in their country by force unless they live as a slave to dictatorship or they're in jail. We all have choices, and we all create our own rules to live by. If you don't like Norway, leave. No one in Norway is forced to live within their system last time I checked.

Go Beavers

Jeanwah wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

are people really saying that norwegians are living in some kind of trap and that they really don't want to live in a socialist state and the only reason they do so is because they are forced to!???

don't know about whether the norwegians want to leave or not...but the vast majority of the people in this world can not pick up and go. they are essentially forced to live within the system they are born. What I want to know is what gives politicians the right to determine our path? is their really any true democracies left in this world? and I don't consider voting every four years a democracy? that's voting a dictator in every 4 years!!!

See, I don't agree with this. As Nate Fisher, Jr. said: "I'm just saying, you only get one life. There's...no rules, no judgements except for those you accept or create for yourself, and once it's over, it's over. Dreamless sleep forever and ever. So why not be happy while you're here, really, why not?"

No one is being kept in their country by force unless they live as a slave to dictatorship or they're in jail. We all have choices, and we all create our own rules to live by. If you don't like Norway, leave. No one in Norway is forced to live within their system last time I checked.

Are people under the impression that you can just load your crap in a U-Haul and move to another country?

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

To tell you the truth, I wish it was easy to live a few lifetimes in different places and really see what is the best for ME. That's the thing, people are so different, I'm not sure why we argue what is the best situation, cause it varies so greatly per person.

Some people can't live without sunshine and a beach. Others like the mountains and snow....same goes for political and economical setups.

your capitalized portion says it all ... why america fails is because everyone is only out for themselves ... the difference in these other countries is that there is a far greater social collective in belief and values ... whatever system is implemented - it will have a far greater chance of success if everyone buys into it ... america is divided in so many ways now - it's pretty crazy that a country can't bring itself to believe in like one or two things ... pretty much every issue that has global implications is divisive in america ...

Ah, so you disagree that people are different then and want different things? Or you just think everyone should think like you?

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

Ah, so you disagree that people are different then and want different things? Or you just think everyone should think like you?

ok ... let me try another way ...

if you are playing a team sport - which team will have more success? ... one that is full of individuals with individual goals and priorities or one that is working towards a common objective?

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Ah, so you disagree that people are different then and want different things? Or you just think everyone should think like you?

ok ... let me try another way ...

if you are playing a team sport - which team will have more success? ... one that is full of individuals with individual goals and priorities or one that is working towards a common objective?

Depends on the talent level. Also depends on the goal/reward.

lukin2006

Go Beavers wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

don't know about whether the norwegians want to leave or not...but the vast majority of the people in this world can not pick up and go. they are essentially forced to live within the system they are born. What I want to know is what gives politicians the right to determine our path? is their really any true democracies left in this world? and I don't consider voting every four years a democracy? that's voting a dictator in every 4 years!!!

See, I don't agree with this. As Nate Fisher, Jr. said: "I'm just saying, you only get one life. There's...no rules, no judgements except for those you accept or create for yourself, and once it's over, it's over. Dreamless sleep forever and ever. So why not be happy while you're here, really, why not?"

No one is being kept in their country by force unless they live as a slave to dictatorship or they're in jail. We all have choices, and we all create our own rules to live by. If you don't like Norway, leave. No one in Norway is forced to live within their system last time I checked.

Are people under the impression that you can just load your crap in a U-Haul and move to another country?

Apparently some people think that's all you need to do.

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Ah, so you disagree that people are different then and want different things? Or you just think everyone should think like you?

ok ... let me try another way ...

if you are playing a team sport - which team will have more success? ... one that is full of individuals with individual goals and priorities or one that is working towards a common objective?

As far as I'm concerned socialism will only work if the extreme vast majority is committed to the concept...that includes all sectors of society, ie. medical professionals, politicians, teachers, business people etc., etc..

I doubt in NA that you can get enough people committed to the concept to make it work. Heck the 1 big socialist program we got, health care is crumbling as I type this...so I see no evidence that socialism works. I used to be a big supporter of our health care, I'll never say another positive thing about it. I had to dig into my own pockets to pay for for surgery because I didn't want to wait another 6-9 months for the surgery after waiting 6 months just to see a surgeon...the shame of it is the fact that premier dad introduced a health care tax 9 years to improve health care...didn't happen...all that money that has been stolen off my pay I could have used for my treatment...so I see no evidence of socialism working when we can't even get decent socialist health care.

fife

lukin2006 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

are people really saying that norwegians are living in some kind of trap and that they really don't want to live in a socialist state and the only reason they do so is because they are forced to!???

don't know about whether the norwegians want to leave or not...but the vast majority of the people in this world can not pick up and go. they are essentially forced to live within the system they are born. What I want to know is what gives politicians the right to determine our path? is their really any true democracies left in this world? and I don't consider voting every four years a democracy? that's voting a dictator in every 4 years!!!

so what do you consider a democracy then?

lukin2006

Referendums...how can anyone trust politicians to make major decisions for the country, province or municipality thinking that they have the people's best interest at heart? The right to recall! We should be able to recall politicians. Term limits 6 years. Elections every 3 years.

I have no problem with politicians running the day to day business of the country...but all major decisions like trade, pipelines, raising taxes etc..should go to the people.

I feel term limits and elections might held politicians more accoutable. I realize this would cost more but maybe less in the long run.

dignin

kenny olav wrote:

Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it But the weather I could deal with. The summers there are actually ideal. It is orderly, peaceful, and all of the buildings there are aesthetically charming. Bergen in particular is one of the most beautiful cities I've seen. I hope to own an apartment there someday, no matter how small.

I did unfortunately see some creeping Americanism in the city of Kristiansand, which is on the south coast of Norway. There was a McDonald's built into an old bank. Still better than the ugly ass McDonalds that litter the American landscape. Funny thing is there are very few restaurants in Norway. They all have huge freezers and walk in refrigerated pantries. They eat very well there and don't waste much food.

Shops do tend to close early in Norway. They like to spend time at home with their families. Silly Norwegians... :roll:

Every day I see happy faces from Norway in my Facebook feed.... they never bitch about anything, unlike a lot of my fellow Americans I'm connected with. My family would not have the same quality of life in they lived here in America. They aren't rich, and they don't need to be to have a great life, unlike here. I plan to spend my golden years there, and be buried in the land my mother was born in.... or perhaps have my body burned in a Viking funeral pyre.

Thanks for this post and the little bit of insight into what life is like in Norway.

Edit. It's to bad it has been largely ignored here

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

As far as I'm concerned socialism will only work if the extreme vast majority is committed to the concept...that includes all sectors of society, ie. medical professionals, politicians, teachers, business people etc., etc..

I doubt in NA that you can get enough people committed to the concept to make it work. Heck the 1 big socialist program we got, health care is crumbling as I type this...so I see no evidence that socialism works. I used to be a big supporter of our health care, I'll never say another positive thing about it. I had to dig into my own pockets to pay for for surgery because I didn't want to wait another 6-9 months for the surgery after waiting 6 months just to see a surgeon...the shame of it is the fact that premier dad introduced a health care tax 9 years to improve health care...didn't happen...all that money that has been stolen off my pay I could have used for my treatment...so I see no evidence of socialism working when we can't even get decent socialist health care.

universal health care is a concept ... you can't say it doesn't work because you had to pay for surgery ... it's like any other program ... if it's properly managed and funded - it will work ... it seems to be working ok in norway and sweden ...

if i create a program and then have shit people manage it and underfund it ... of course it's gonna look like shit ...

dignin

lukin2006 wrote:

Referendums...how can anyone trust politicians to make major decisions for the country, province or municipality thinking that they have the people's best interest at heart? The right to recall! We should be able to recall politicians. Term limits 6 years. Elections every 3 years.

I have no problem with politicians running the day to day business of the country...but all major decisions like trade, pipelines, raising taxes etc..should go to the people.

I feel term limits and elections might held politicians more accoutable. I realize this would cost more but maybe less in the long run.

I totally agree with term limits.....but I do have a problem with referendums.

MotoDC

kenny olav wrote:

Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it But the weather I could deal with. The summers there are actually ideal. It is orderly, peaceful, and all of the buildings there are aesthetically charming. Bergen in particular is one of the most beautiful cities I've seen. I hope to own an apartment there someday, no matter how small.

I did unfortunately see some creeping Americanism in the city of Kristiansand, which is on the south coast of Norway. There was a McDonald's built into an old bank. Still better than the ugly ass McDonalds that litter the American landscape. Funny thing is there are very few restaurants in Norway. They all have huge freezers and walk in refrigerated pantries. They eat very well there and don't waste much food.

Shops do tend to close early in Norway. They like to spend time at home with their families. Silly Norwegians... :roll:

Every day I see happy faces from Norway in my Facebook feed.... they never bitch about anything, unlike a lot of my fellow Americans I'm connected with. My family would not have the same quality of life in they lived here in America. They aren't rich, and they don't need to be to have a great life, unlike here. I plan to spend my golden years there, and be buried in the land my mother was born in.... or perhaps have my body burned in a Viking funeral pyre.

Kenny -- thanks for some 1st-person perspective (or as near as we're going to get here on AMT). It's sad that McD's = America to you, though I can understand why. Truth is we have some of the best restaurants in the world in the US, but of course those kinds of restaurants can't really be exported.

MotoDC

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Ah, so you disagree that people are different then and want different things? Or you just think everyone should think like you?

ok ... let me try another way ...

if you are playing a team sport - which team will have more success? ... one that is full of individuals with individual goals and priorities or one that is working towards a common objective?

Who defines the common objective? It's pretty easy in your simplified analogy -- the goal is to win the game. Not so clear when it comes to central-planning a society of 100s of millions of people.

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

As far as I'm concerned socialism will only work if the extreme vast majority is committed to the concept...that includes all sectors of society, ie. medical professionals, politicians, teachers, business people etc., etc..

I doubt in NA that you can get enough people committed to the concept to make it work. Heck the 1 big socialist program we got, health care is crumbling as I type this...so I see no evidence that socialism works. I used to be a big supporter of our health care, I'll never say another positive thing about it. I had to dig into my own pockets to pay for for surgery because I didn't want to wait another 6-9 months for the surgery after waiting 6 months just to see a surgeon...the shame of it is the fact that premier dad introduced a health care tax 9 years to improve health care...didn't happen...all that money that has been stolen off my pay I could have used for my treatment...so I see no evidence of socialism working when we can't even get decent socialist health care.

universal health care is a concept ... you can't say it doesn't work because you had to pay for surgery ... it's like any other program ... if it's properly managed and funded - it will work ... it seems to be working ok in norway and sweden ...

if i create a program and then have shit people manage it and underfund it ... of course it's gonna look like shit ...

Personally I don't know if it working in those countries...what are their wait times like, are their plenty of family doctors, etc..

I know it's not working in Canada...how much more money needs to be funnelled into the system to make it work right? Everyone has an opinion, my Doctor says theirs not enough Doctors, a neighbour of mine who works at a hospital says they the OR's are under utilized and the back log could be leaded if the surgeons were allowed more OR time.

My point really was that we were charged a health care tax on top of paying pretty generous taxes to the government and we are still waiting over a year for procedure's or do as I did and go outside the system. So for anyone to tell me that the government is better off with my money than me is full of it.

I don't know enough about those other countries system to know if they work or not. I am pretty confident in saying our system is fucked and will only get worse.