Interesting Article - Norway/Taxes/Hard Work

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  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    I just finished reading a book about the collectivism of the Japanese (and by extension other East Asian nations) and how their society actually has a similar focus on what is important within their society, much of his observation is based on the notion of a common belief system - Confucianism. They value a high standard of living but in many ways it is defined differently than the way many of us define standard of living in the US. It seems we in the US value material possessions more so than other elements that could define a higher standard of living, i.e. less crime, better healthcare, etc. Seems the Japanese have achieved this through collectivism. This book was a bit dated, based on this guys experiences during the 1990s (which was also a very interesting perspective since Japan was experiencing a huge economic downturn yet many elements of their society remained relatively stable despite economic hardship,for instance crime stayed more or less the same and I won't bore you with all the details of what lengths some companies went to in order to retain their employees instead of laying them off to maximize profit), and I would love to be able to compare this book to a more updated vision of Japanese society. When I think about community and working together to achieve safety, security and other things that really would give us a better standard of living, it seems as if a govt. mandate, socialism, is the only way to achieve that simply because so many of us in this country are worlds apart on what constitutes a good standard of living. Sorry, if that was a bit rambling, just thinking out loud
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • Hinn
    Hinn Posts: 1,517
    kenny olav wrote:
    Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

    Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it ;)
    There is also the part about the price of a beer at a bar.

    I'm still recovering, and I was there for a night and a half. No wonder I had weird looks when I ordered a proper round.
    115 bucks for half a haircut by a novice? I want my money back!
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    Hinn wrote:
    kenny olav wrote:
    Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

    Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it ;)
    There is also the part about the price of a beer at a bar.

    I'm still recovering, and I was there for a night and a half. No wonder I had weird looks when I ordered a proper round.
    Yeah, my family said a pint was $10-$12 (US) over there!!!! :shock:

    Well, nuts to the Norway system ... I'd need a welfare state to support me just so I can catch my buzz :D
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    MotoDC wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    To tell you the truth, I wish it was easy to live a few lifetimes in different places and really see what is the best for ME. That's the thing, people are so different, I'm not sure why we argue what is the best situation, cause it varies so greatly per person.

    Some people can't live without sunshine and a beach. Others like the mountains and snow....same goes for political and economical setups.

    your capitalized portion says it all ... why america fails is because everyone is only out for themselves ... the difference in these other countries is that there is a far greater social collective in belief and values ..
    Sigh. It should be obvious, but I'll post a counter-link anyway:
    http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/americ ... eaves.html

    That article shouldn't be news to anyone; I think it's pretty common knowledge. However it seems even common knowledge is sometimes overlooked.

    In those "other countries", the people don't have a choice, short of leaving. The gov't forces them to have a "greater social collective" attitude, as you put it, regardless of whether they believe it or not. They don't "choose" to do good and give to others, the gov't says, we'll take your income, give it to who we think needs it, and you'll like it. Maybe they do like it, I don't know. But it's interesting that you see "giving" via coercion as morally superior to giving voluntarily.

    My girlfriend is German, and currently living here in the states with me.
    Her family loves the system that they live in. They are quite proud of their healthcare system, and they feel it is efficient and has served them well. There are quite proud to have a system in place where the "greater social collective" is a goal.
    To say they are "forced" is misleading. They like their system; to them it is not "giving via coercion," it is a system that they feel benefits the nation as a whole, while also giving them the freedom to live a beautiful life. And yes, there are other countries in the world that have FREEDOM.
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    dignin wrote:
    kenny olav wrote:
    Speaking as someone who has family that live in Norway... aunts, uncles and many cousins... and as someone who visited Norway last year, including Bergen, where this article was written from...

    Norway IS a paradise, except for the weather part of it ;) But the weather I could deal with. The summers there are actually ideal. It is orderly, peaceful, and all of the buildings there are aesthetically charming. Bergen in particular is one of the most beautiful cities I've seen. I hope to own an apartment there someday, no matter how small.

    I did unfortunately see some creeping Americanism in the city of Kristiansand, which is on the south coast of Norway. There was a McDonald's built into an old bank. Still better than the ugly ass McDonalds that litter the American landscape. Funny thing is there are very few restaurants in Norway. They all have huge freezers and walk in refrigerated pantries. They eat very well there and don't waste much food.

    Shops do tend to close early in Norway. They like to spend time at home with their families. Silly Norwegians... :roll:

    Every day I see happy faces from Norway in my Facebook feed.... they never bitch about anything, unlike a lot of my fellow Americans I'm connected with. My family would not have the same quality of life in they lived here in America. They aren't rich, and they don't need to be to have a great life, unlike here. I plan to spend my golden years there, and be buried in the land my mother was born in.... or perhaps have my body burned in a Viking funeral pyre. 8-)

    Thanks for this post and the little bit of insight into what life is like in Norway.

    Edit. It's to bad it has been largely ignored here

    Would people like you please stop injecting knowledge and experience into discussions!!!!!!!
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    whygohome wrote:
    Would people like you please stop injecting knowledge and experience into discussions!!!!!!!

    http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/14/ ... ted-taxes/

    interesting article. They hate some taxes, but overall I guess they are in support of higher taxes.

    Anyone have any percent of who doesn't pay income tax? of how the benefits are paid out to those not working? In other words, how progressive is their tax system? I don't know I am asking. It would seem to me that the higher taxes on homes, cars, and other consumables would hit the "poor" a lot harder than the rich here. How will we make that transition? can you simply just start taxing the rich's income more? will that make up the unbelievable amounts of money needed to have a similar system of gov't that covers 300 million people?
    It has giant oil and gas reserves it utilizes, it has ~5 million people. multiply that by 60 and you have the united states...do we also multiply their GDP by 60? the answer is no, it is roughly 30 times the size. That is a pretty large ratio that cannot be ignored...people seem to forget that a country of Norway is the size of Minnesota population wise, and has a large robust GDP backed by oil reserves. If minnesota had a 485 billion dollar economy to itself I am sure I would be living high on the hog too...

    Socialism, or collectivism, or whatever you want to call it is a hard sell in a federalist system with 300 million people and insane cost of living differences throughout. 5 million people are a lot easier to convince they would be better off than 300 million people wouldn't you think? Especially those that grew up and knew no other way other than theory gathered from education. It is relative I suppose, but i don't think people take into consideration sheer numbers when discussing this form of gov't.

    Polaris, let me tell you what I believe happens when Norway's oil reserves run out. They either A, raise taxes to make up the difference in revenue over time as their reserves deplete, or come up with a new technology that they can export that EVERYONE in the world needs. Clean and renewable energy will help Norway, but I doubt they will be able to export that technology to equal their % to GDP of oil now. Countries have their own wind, their own water, they all see the sun...They cannot export actual energy resources in the same ratio they do now with oil. It cannot continue. So again, whether it is now or a hundred years from now...when the oil runs out...how on earth will they replace 25% of their GDP?
    they spend roughly 3 times as much % to GDP as we do. That would be a HUGE increase in spending. It would mean raising nearly 5 trillion extra dollars. (rough math but I think I might be under cutting) Good luck with that and not having an uprising.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Personally I don't know if it working in those countries...what are their wait times like, are their plenty of family doctors, etc..

    I know it's not working in Canada...how much more money needs to be funnelled into the system to make it work right? Everyone has an opinion, my Doctor says theirs not enough Doctors, a neighbour of mine who works at a hospital says they the OR's are under utilized and the back log could be leaded if the surgeons were allowed more OR time.

    My point really was that we were charged a health care tax on top of paying pretty generous taxes to the government and we are still waiting over a year for procedure's or do as I did and go outside the system. So for anyone to tell me that the government is better off with my money than me is full of it.

    I don't know enough about those other countries system to know if they work or not. I am pretty confident in saying our system is fucked and will only get worse.

    here is a look at health care spending per capita ... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_s ... per-person

    compare canada to all the other socialist type countries ... it's way under ...

    when you underfund a program - of course its gonna fail ... what do you think the conservatives want to do? ... they want to privatize ... and how better to make an argument for it then by making sure the system fails?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Polaris, let me tell you what I believe happens when Norway's oil reserves run out. They either A, raise taxes to make up the difference in revenue over time as their reserves deplete, or come up with a new technology that they can export that EVERYONE in the world needs. Clean and renewable energy will help Norway, but I doubt they will be able to export that technology to equal their % to GDP of oil now. Countries have their own wind, their own water, they all see the sun...They cannot export actual energy resources in the same ratio they do now with oil. It cannot continue. So again, whether it is now or a hundred years from now...when the oil runs out...how on earth will they replace 25% of their GDP?
    they spend roughly 3 times as much % to GDP as we do. That would be a HUGE increase in spending. It would mean raising nearly 5 trillion extra dollars. (rough math but I think I might be under cutting) Good luck with that and not having an uprising.

    firstly, i wan to reiterate that there is no way in hell socialism would work in the US and it really boils down to the nature of the populace ... the reality is that whether you are 300 million or 30 million - the priorities are not in line in the US ... most people complain about the taxes they pay now so it's just not gonna work there ...

    secondly, the swedes don't have huge oil reserves nor does finland ... there are socialist countries that make it work with what they have ... norway is simply taking advantage of what they have - the biggest difference is they nationalized their oil so that those revenues could be shared amongst all norwegians not just big oil companies ...

    thirdly, i feel like there are people here who are just looking for reasons to knock this system down without really addressing what it comes down to ... which is the collective aspect of this all ... if norwegians decided to impose a more libertarian philosophy ... i would say that it too would work well for everyone simply because in general everyone is working towards the same ideal ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Polaris, let me tell you what I believe happens when Norway's oil reserves run out. They either A, raise taxes to make up the difference in revenue over time as their reserves deplete, or come up with a new technology that they can export that EVERYONE in the world needs.
    Dubai Version 2.0

    that's working out .... isn't it?

    :think:
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Polaris, let me tell you what I believe happens when Norway's oil reserves run out. They either A, raise taxes to make up the difference in revenue over time as their reserves deplete, or come up with a new technology that they can export that EVERYONE in the world needs. Clean and renewable energy will help Norway, but I doubt they will be able to export that technology to equal their % to GDP of oil now. Countries have their own wind, their own water, they all see the sun...They cannot export actual energy resources in the same ratio they do now with oil. It cannot continue. So again, whether it is now or a hundred years from now...when the oil runs out...how on earth will they replace 25% of their GDP?
    they spend roughly 3 times as much % to GDP as we do. That would be a HUGE increase in spending. It would mean raising nearly 5 trillion extra dollars. (rough math but I think I might be under cutting) Good luck with that and not having an uprising.

    firstly, i wan to reiterate that there is no way in hell socialism would work in the US and it really boils down to the nature of the populace ... the reality is that whether you are 300 million or 30 million - the priorities are not in line in the US ... most people complain about the taxes they pay now so it's just not gonna work there ...

    secondly, the swedes don't have huge oil reserves nor does finland ... there are socialist countries that make it work with what they have ... norway is simply taking advantage of what they have - the biggest difference is they nationalized their oil so that those revenues could be shared amongst all norwegians not just big oil companies ...

    thirdly, i feel like there are people here who are just looking for reasons to knock this system down without really addressing what it comes down to ... which is the collective aspect of this all ... if norwegians decided to impose a more libertarian philosophy ... i would say that it too would work well for everyone simply because in general everyone is working towards the same ideal ...

    you are right, those countries work with what they have. Interesting that anyone who pays taxes is eligible for gov't benefits...That is pretty cool. Not sure why they don't have birth right citizenship...maybe it isn't a big deal considering as long as you pay taxes you get benefits citizen or not but i am sure there is some reason being a citizen is an advantage.

    People make plenty of assumptions about socialism. You make some about it too...I cannot make an assumption about how the people there feel about the need or role of gov't...I can take a look at how they fund their country's expenditures and look at what changes are going to be necessary moving forward to keep the same standard of living. It is going to have to be replaced by something huge...or a ton of little things...

    I don't think socialism is necessarily bad, I do think that people here will take care of each other We are just a massive country. we waste a million here or a million there like it is nothing. Real families who need help don't get it because of that waste...tell me why 14400 is seen as ineligible for services, but 13900 is...The way we offer benefits would have to change wholesale to truly be able to get to that kind of system
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    People make plenty of assumptions about socialism. You make some about it too...I cannot make an assumption about how the people there feel about the need or role of gov't...I can take a look at how they fund their country's expenditures and look at what changes are going to be necessary moving forward to keep the same standard of living. It is going to have to be replaced by something huge...or a ton of little things...

    I don't think socialism is necessarily bad, I do think that people here will take care of each other We are just a massive country. we waste a million here or a million there like it is nothing. Real families who need help don't get it because of that waste...tell me why 14400 is seen as ineligible for services, but 13900 is...The way we offer benefits would have to change wholesale to truly be able to get to that kind of system

    i believe that socialism, conceptually and practically, is the best way for society to organize itself ... but that in it of itself - socialism has a myriad of approaches and not one singular approach is considered to be the pinnacle ... it all depends on the people and the environment ...

    i can see tho why americans are so opposed to it ... and I understand fully why libertarians are against it ... like, i said ... the US is a "me" culture ... the american dream is about personal gain ... how one gets there is secondary to most americans ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    i can see tho why americans are so opposed to it ... and I understand fully why libertarians are against it ... like, i said ... the US is a "me" culture ... the american dream is about personal gain ... how one gets there is secondary to most americans ...
    What is the Canadian dream?
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    What is the Canadian dream?

    do a search for it ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    What is the Canadian dream?

    do a search for it ...
    Geddy Lee scoring the OT goal for gold in the Winter Olympics???
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    People make plenty of assumptions about socialism. You make some about it too...I cannot make an assumption about how the people there feel about the need or role of gov't...I can take a look at how they fund their country's expenditures and look at what changes are going to be necessary moving forward to keep the same standard of living. It is going to have to be replaced by something huge...or a ton of little things...

    I don't think socialism is necessarily bad, I do think that people here will take care of each other We are just a massive country. we waste a million here or a million there like it is nothing. Real families who need help don't get it because of that waste...tell me why 14400 is seen as ineligible for services, but 13900 is...The way we offer benefits would have to change wholesale to truly be able to get to that kind of system

    i believe that socialism, conceptually and practically, is the best way for society to organize itself ... but that in it of itself - socialism has a myriad of approaches and not one singular approach is considered to be the pinnacle ... it all depends on the people and the environment ...

    i can see tho why americans are so opposed to it ... and I understand fully why libertarians are against it ... like, i said ... the US is a "me" culture ... the american dream is about personal gain ... how one gets there is secondary to most americans ...

    I will say for me, who definitely leans to the libertarian ideal, it isn't about me...it is about the expectation that a community take care of itself without coercion. My ideal utopia would be a community that took care of each other when necessary, but rewarded innovation, entrepreneurial spirit, hard work and maximum effort handsomely. That isn't so bad is it? How that would happen would be up to each community...I think gov'ts role should be limited and should be thought of as local first, then national...
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    What is the Canadian dream?

    do a search for it ...
    Here is what the Urban Dictionary gave me. It would be easier if you just told me, but here they are:

    1. Like the American Dream, except you follow your dreams and still help a brother out. And you don't exploit people.

    2. Self employed, driving the company car, married to a wife who works, good credit, a house, and a cat and dog, and a good retirement fund in their 30's-40's, bills paid on time all the time and most importantly..good health + free gas.

    3. To live off welfare without ever working or putting any effort.

    4. To be a parasite, usually depending on government handouts to survive.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=canadian%20dream
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • fife
    fife Posts: 3,327
    Jason P wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    i can see tho why americans are so opposed to it ... and I understand fully why libertarians are against it ... like, i said ... the US is a "me" culture ... the american dream is about personal gain ... how one gets there is secondary to most americans ...
    What is the Canadian dream?

    I don't think there is a differences between the American dream and a Canadian dream. its just about the means to that dream which are different.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    Here is what the Urban Dictionary gave me. It would be easier if you just told me, but here they are:

    1. Like the American Dream, except you follow your dreams and still help a brother out. And you don't exploit people.

    2. Self employed, driving the company car, married to a wife who works, good credit, a house, and a cat and dog, and a good retirement fund in their 30's-40's, bills paid on time all the time and most importantly..good health + free gas.

    3. To live off welfare without ever working or putting any effort.

    4. To be a parasite, usually depending on government handouts to survive.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=canadian%20dream

    i'm surprised you actually found something ... my point was that there really isn't a canadian dream ... whatever national ethos we were nurturing has long fallen by the way side ... this urban dictionary definition is a bit of a joke ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I will say for me, who definitely leans to the libertarian ideal, it isn't about me...it is about the expectation that a community take care of itself without coercion. My ideal utopia would be a community that took care of each other when necessary, but rewarded innovation, entrepreneurial spirit, hard work and maximum effort handsomely. That isn't so bad is it? How that would happen would be up to each community...I think gov'ts role should be limited and should be thought of as local first, then national...

    but would you agree that in general americans are a me society?

    the thing with your utopian society is that it is inherently socialist ... communities taking after each other ... that is a socialist ideal ... what is universal health care but the community looking after each other!?
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    i'm surprised you actually found something ... my point was that there really isn't a canadian dream ... whatever national ethos we were nurturing has long fallen by the way side ... this urban dictionary definition is a bit of a joke ...
    Well, I found a song call The Canadian Dream by Sam Roberts. I have yet to listen to it, but judging it's lyrical impact, I'll not hold you guys to this song. Lyrically, he makes the Black Eyed Peas look like understudies to Bob Dylan. :)

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-canadian-dream-lyrics-sam-roberts.html
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!

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