This is a real blood boiler...

2

Comments

  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,621
    Cosmo wrote:
    Okay... I'm prepared to take on some flak for this... and i'm ready...
    But...
    Seriously... who are we to judge another family on how to raise their kids? I mean, sure, we can completely agree or disagree on the issue of corporal punishment and bring research findings to bear in order to support our views. But, in the bigger picture... is it our part... as a society... to rule on how parents discipline their kids?

    I would say that yes, it is our part to rule on how parents discipline their kids. We have laws that make it illegal to physically assault someone, and that's what the dad's doing to the child. It doesn't matter if it's in their house or the guy grabbed someone on the street and whipped them with a belt. It's different from state to state on the laws around it, but where I am, if the parent leaves a mark on the kid, it's reportable as abuse. There really isn't a big difference between assault and corporal punishment. I guess if a parent wants to hit their kid, they can swat them on the butt when they're wearing pants. Parents hit their kids as an outlet to their own anger, not to create behavior change, but of course that's what they use to justify it.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Go Beavers wrote:

    Parents hit their kids as an outlet to their own anger, not to create behavior change, but of course that's what they use to justify it.

    Guessing you don't have kids. Yes, parents are obviously angry when they get to that point. But, if that's what you think, you don't have kids.

    This has nothing to do with the video. That is beyond any of this discussion. But, your simplistic comment needed to be called out.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,675
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:

    Parents hit their kids as an outlet to their own anger, not to create behavior change, but of course that's what they use to justify it.

    Guessing you don't have kids. Yes, parents are obviously angry when they get to that point. But, if that's what you think, you don't have kids.

    This has nothing to do with the video. That is beyond any of this discussion. But, your simplistic comment needed to be called out.
    Edson, I wish I could totally agree with you here. I'm guessing you are a parent and a good one at that. Unfortunately, I've known a few parents who did just just what Go Beavers said, hit their kids as an outlet for their anger, not to create behavior change but used that as justification. Fortunately, most parents aren't like that, but sadly some are.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    nsepstru wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Okay... I'm prepared to take on some flak for this... and i'm ready...
    But...
    Seriously... who are we to judge another family on how to raise their kids? I mean, sure, we can completely agree or disagree on the issue of corporal punishment and bring research findings to bear in order to support our views. But, in the bigger picture... is it our part... as a society... to rule on how parents discipline their kids?
    Also, it appears to me that there is all sorts of internal family sub-text that we aren't hearing about. The video shows a horrible display of parental discipline... but, I cast a jaundice eye to it being the complete story. It is a sad statement on America when the Internet and television alone, form our opinions.
    Now, it would be a completely different story if the girl had been chained to a radiator and beated in the face by his fists for no reason at all... but, it seems to fall in line with American child rearing. The belt to the butt is as American as Apple Pie, the Death Penalty and our irrational fear of the metric system.
    Now, I'm not saying it's okay... or that he did nothing wrong. I would never do something like that to my kid... if I had kids. But, just because i don't... doesn't mean he cannot.
    The bottom line. She stole... she got punished for it in the manner that her parents doled it out. And... she might have even gotten off easy... He's a Judge... in Texas. They execute people for boosting a Snickers bar from a liquor store down there.
    Of course there is more to the story than we know...HOWEVER there is a big difference between corporal punishment and flat out assaulting someone. If you did this to another person let alone a minor you'd be picked up immediately. Just because he is her father does not mean it's not assault...


    All of the potential psychological harm to the kids aside, this right here is the crux of it for me. It kind of reminds me of the old way of thinking where it was basically legal for a man to rape his wife. Somehow that was viewed as ok...
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:

    Parents hit their kids as an outlet to their own anger, not to create behavior change, but of course that's what they use to justify it.

    Guessing you don't have kids. Yes, parents are obviously angry when they get to that point. But, if that's what you think, you don't have kids.

    This has nothing to do with the video. That is beyond any of this discussion. But, your simplistic comment needed to be called out.

    I tend to agree with Beavers, and I have kids. Mine aren't teenagers yet, so I can't speak to that, but there are times where my kids get me past the point of frustration to the point of anger. It would be easy to last out at them physically, and probably, in that instant, would be an outlet for anger. But there is a part in our brains that stop most people from doing that.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • MayDay Malone
    MayDay Malone Posts: 641
    I guess the daughter shouldn't have downloaded that song.

    Spank your children daily- if you don't know why, I'm sure they do.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    I certainly am not in the camp that says you need to be a parent in order to comment on parenting...I mean, most of us aren't the president but we comment on him just the same, most of us aren't quarterbacks but many of us comment on their play...

    That being said, while i see this video as excessive punishment and not something I would support in any manor, I do believe that corporal punishment has a place in child rearing. I don't ever want to have to spank my daughter, as you can see
    >
    I just put her in a cage anyway :lol::lol: (just kidding in case anyone is hyper sensitive)

    But when I was spanked as a child it was never in the moment and it was never done in anger. That is where the difference lies with me. If you do it in anger it isn't for the kid.

    The thing that makes this punishment abuse rather than simple parental spanking, is the tone and anger with which it was delivered. Growing up I had my share of spankings with a stick from the bottom of the old pull down shades, and I deserved every one of them. The benefit I had was a parent who came in, sat me down, and explained to me why my actions deserved this and never did the spanking out of anger.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I certainly am not in the camp that says you need to be a parent in order to comment on parenting...I mean, most of us aren't the president but we comment on him just the same, most of us aren't quarterbacks but many of us comment on their play...

    That being said, while i see this video as excessive punishment and not something I would support in any manor, I do believe that corporal punishment has a place in child rearing. I don't ever want to have to spank my daughter, as you can see
    >
    I just put her in a cage anyway :lol::lol: (just kidding in case anyone is hyper sensitive)

    But when I was spanked as a child it was never in the moment and it was never done in anger. That is where the difference lies with me. If you do it in anger it isn't for the kid.

    The thing that makes this punishment abuse rather than simple parental spanking, is the tone and anger with which it was delivered. Growing up I had my share of spankings with a stick from the bottom of the old pull down shades, and I deserved every one of them. The benefit I had was a parent who came in, sat me down, and explained to me why my actions deserved this and never did the spanking out of anger.

    I occasionally got the wooden spoon as a kid, but I can't remember any specifics of how or why it happened... But, as far as your post, I just don't understand that approach either... I just can't picture sitting my kid down, calmly telling him why his actions were wrong, and that he somehow deserves me smacking him with something and then hitting him.

    Looking back on my childhood, like I said, I got the wooden spoon once in a while... The only thing I remember was that it was my mother smacking me. But as a teenager (or even in my adult life), I don't remember ever fearing facing her when I did something stupid. I don't remember my dad every hitting me or being mean to me, but the one consequence I always feared was letting him down or disappointing him with what I did.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,621
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:

    Parents hit their kids as an outlet to their own anger, not to create behavior change, but of course that's what they use to justify it.

    Guessing you don't have kids. Yes, parents are obviously angry when they get to that point. But, if that's what you think, you don't have kids.

    This has nothing to do with the video. That is beyond any of this discussion. But, your simplistic comment needed to be called out.

    Maybe you could fill in the leap between what I said and your conclusion that I don't have kids.

    If you think it's simplistic, that's fine with me. People don't behave violently from a space of peacefulness, logic, and forethought. You agree with me that parents are angry when they get to that point.
  • Shawshank
    Shawshank Posts: 1,018
    Anyone who thinks this is corporal punishment needs to reevaluate exactly what they think that is. This is nothing but physical and emotional abuse. Spanking a kid is one thing, but cursing them, and hitting them all over their body with a belt with every ounce of strength you have is something totally different.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    brianlux wrote:
    Edson, I wish I could totally agree with you here. I'm guessing you are a parent and a good one at that. Unfortunately, I've known a few parents who did just just what Go Beavers said, hit their kids as an outlet for their anger, not to create behavior change but used that as justification. Fortunately, most parents aren't like that, but sadly some are.

    Obviously. That's true with anything. There are folks you can trust with a gun and some you can't. So do you disarm everyone? Or, do you try to manage it as best you can without taking folks rights away?

    (I am actually anti-gun, but the freedom part is a valid point, and it is only used here as an analogy).

    The fact is, I coach, and while I would never lay a finger on another child, there are times when you realize which kids are disciplined (period -whether it's with spanking or not), and those that have not. And, knowing these kids as well as I do, it correlates directly to their school results. Being around these kids for any amount of time, you can see the ones that will succeed and those that won't. And it plays itself out in school. And it's parental discipline that is the common denominator in the successful kids.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Shawshank wrote:
    Anyone who thinks this is corporal punishment needs to reevaluate exactly what they think that is. This is nothing but physical and emotional abuse. Spanking a kid is one thing, but cursing them, and hitting them all over their body with a belt with every ounce of strength you have is something totally different.

    I don't think anyone has defended what this father and MOTHER did (I'm still not sure why she keeps skating in a lot of these posts).

    Though you do raise a good point. I think there are folks on this thread that think folks that are saying spanking is okay are tacitly approving of this. I've noticed that a lot about the AMT. Folks are very extreme in their interpretations of what folks write instead of just reading.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    MayDay Malone wrote:
    I guess the daughter shouldn't have downloaded that song.

    Spank your children daily- if you don't know why, I'm sure they do.


    yep just in case.. who knows what the little buggers have been getting up to. ;)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Monster Rain
    Monster Rain Posts: 1,415
    I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Shawshank wrote:
    Anyone who thinks this is corporal punishment needs to reevaluate exactly what they think that is. This is nothing but physical and emotional abuse. Spanking a kid is one thing, but cursing them, and hitting them all over their body with a belt with every ounce of strength you have is something totally different.

    I don't think anyone has defended what this father and MOTHER did (I'm still not sure why she keeps skating in a lot of these posts).

    Though you do raise a good point. I think there are folks on this thread that think folks that are saying spanking is okay are tacitly approving of this. I've noticed that a lot about the AMT. Folks are very extreme in their interpretations of what folks write instead of just reading.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Monster Rain wrote:
    I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.

    Really? YEs, the father was out of control. No debates there. But, the mother was in on it. And your description of here doing that to let it end quicker is silly. If I did something like that, not only would my wife have tried to stop me, if I continued, I assume she would do something more.

    And if she was abused, also, why not already come out and say that? AT this point, she's safe. Your reading of this makes little sense to me. Yes, the father was controlling of the mother, too. OF that, I have no doubt. But, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you did even if you did it under "brainwash." There's something else here.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Monster Rain
    Monster Rain Posts: 1,415
    Unfortunately, women in abusive relationships don't always know what to do to make it stop. They're divorced now, so his abuse may have been something mentioned in the divorce proceedings or he may have settled with her and had some sort of confidentiality agreement in it due to his stature as a judge. She may also still believe that her beatings were her own fault in some way. It's easy to say what should have been done as an outside observer but it's another thing to know what to do in the moment. What if her interference sent him into an even greater rage? For all we know, that's what happened in previous instances when she tried to interfere and she decided that if interfering in that way only made it worse then perhaps she could lessen the beatings by the means shown in that tape.
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    Monster Rain wrote:
    I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.

    Really? YEs, the father was out of control. No debates there. But, the mother was in on it. And your description of here doing that to let it end quicker is silly. If I did something like that, not only would my wife have tried to stop me, if I continued, I assume she would do something more.

    And if she was abused, also, why not already come out and say that? AT this point, she's safe. Your reading of this makes little sense to me. Yes, the father was controlling of the mother, too. OF that, I have no doubt. But, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you did even if you did it under "brainwash." There's something else here.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    blackredyellow wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I certainly am not in the camp that says you need to be a parent in order to comment on parenting...I mean, most of us aren't the president but we comment on him just the same, most of us aren't quarterbacks but many of us comment on their play...

    That being said, while i see this video as excessive punishment and not something I would support in any manor, I do believe that corporal punishment has a place in child rearing. I don't ever want to have to spank my daughter, as you can see
    >
    I just put her in a cage anyway :lol::lol: (just kidding in case anyone is hyper sensitive)

    But when I was spanked as a child it was never in the moment and it was never done in anger. That is where the difference lies with me. If you do it in anger it isn't for the kid.

    The thing that makes this punishment abuse rather than simple parental spanking, is the tone and anger with which it was delivered. Growing up I had my share of spankings with a stick from the bottom of the old pull down shades, and I deserved every one of them. The benefit I had was a parent who came in, sat me down, and explained to me why my actions deserved this and never did the spanking out of anger.

    I occasionally got the wooden spoon as a kid, but I can't remember any specifics of how or why it happened... But, as far as your post, I just don't understand that approach either... I just can't picture sitting my kid down, calmly telling him why his actions were wrong, and that he somehow deserves me smacking him with something and then hitting him.

    Looking back on my childhood, like I said, I got the wooden spoon once in a while... The only thing I remember was that it was my mother smacking me. But as a teenager (or even in my adult life), I don't remember ever fearing facing her when I did something stupid. I don't remember my dad every hitting me or being mean to me, but the one consequence I always feared was letting him down or disappointing him with what I did.


    well it taught me a few things:

    1...probably the most important thing... punishment doesn't mean they don't love you.
    2...It taught me to respect rules as I understood consequences. Now I am sure it is possible to teach kids consequences other ways, but I think all too easily those ways become less effective through inconsistency.
    3...It really did work as a deterrent on me. I was actually a good kid all things considered. Still hate breaking the rules even when no one is watching...

    I didn't say it was the best way, I just said it was effective on me. I will say the only thing kids need is punishment and consistency. I don't think much else matters as long as the punishment fits the crime and you are consistent with how you do it.

    I think people who were spanked as a kid are all too easy to dismiss it as a useful tool. Sure you weren't afraid of spankings as an young adult, but the fear as a kid was probably very real. As you said you don't remember, and it could be completely different. I just know how it worked for me. I also have a lot of experience as a youth hockey coach. Punishment is very necessary in that environment and if you aren't cosistent they will eat you alive. I don't beat them in a me punching them kind of way, but the fear of a good skate can generally keep them in line, as long as I follow through

    As long as it doesn't cross into abuse, like it did here, I have no problem with corporal punishment, and plan to use it myself if my daughter deserves it...
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Monster Rain wrote:
    Unfortunately, women in abusive relationships don't always know what to do to make it stop. They're divorced now, so his abuse may have been something mentioned in the divorce proceedings or he may have settled with her and had some sort of confidentiality agreement in it due to his stature as a judge. She may also still believe that her beatings were her own fault in some way. It's easy to say what should have been done as an outside observer but it's another thing to know what to do in the moment. What if her interference sent him into an even greater rage? For all we know, that's what happened in previous instances when she tried to interfere and she decided that if interfering in that way only made it worse then perhaps she could lessen the beatings by the means shown in that tape.

    I don't know. It all seems so weird. Yes, I'm sure these some semblence of what you are saying here. But, there's something more. Maybe, it's just because I'm cynical.

    The mom mentioned the father threatened to get the custody of the younger daughter changed. If abuse was agreed to in the first proceeding, I don't see why this would be an issue. Sure, he's a judge in the family court. But, at some point that would have to come to light. Plus, I do believe the car thing he said. Again, no justification, but both those things point to WHY it came out now.

    There's just something here that doesn't make sense. He hits the girl on the but. Threatens the face, but goes for the butt. Gets leg. Yes, I understand abusers sometimes learn how and where to hit to hide marks. But, those actions don't seem to fit with an abuser. Plus, again, the both women say it went on for a short while. That also doesn't make sense. Abusers don't suddenly stop. And why is there no indication of abuse to the younger child? It wreaks of pent up anger (and rightfully so), not solving a problem as they contend. There are some pieces missing here. And I think it has to do with the mom and it's not coming out because of the custody issue. Because, there's not much worse they could do to the dad short of revealing he was also a pedophile.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,621
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Edson, I wish I could totally agree with you here. I'm guessing you are a parent and a good one at that. Unfortunately, I've known a few parents who did just just what Go Beavers said, hit their kids as an outlet for their anger, not to create behavior change but used that as justification. Fortunately, most parents aren't like that, but sadly some are.

    Obviously. That's true with anything. There are folks you can trust with a gun and some you can't. So do you disarm everyone? Or, do you try to manage it as best you can without taking folks rights away?

    (I am actually anti-gun, but the freedom part is a valid point, and it is only used here as an analogy).

    The fact is, I coach, and while I would never lay a finger on another child, there are times when you realize which kids are disciplined (period -whether it's with spanking or not), and those that have not. And, knowing these kids as well as I do, it correlates directly to their school results. Being around these kids for any amount of time, you can see the ones that will succeed and those that won't. And it plays itself out in school. And it's parental discipline that is the common denominator in the successful kids.

    You can often identify which kid has been disciplined effectively without corporal punishment, the ones whose parents used it, and the ones who had very little discipline (if we can over generalize for a moment). You can also see behavior that defies the rule. I've seen wild kids who have parents that are very together and used their best parenting techniques but to no avail. I've also seen high functioning kids with little parent structure and intervention. I'm safe with the notion that physical punishment is the least effective method and leads to short term as well as long term damage. You do see successful kids whose parents were physical, but with those kids I've also seen emotional effects later on in life after they no longer have to toe the line out of fear of physical punishment.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Go Beavers wrote:
    You can often identify which kid has been disciplined effectively without corporal punishment, the ones whose parents used it, and the ones who had very little discipline (if we can over generalize for a moment). You can also see behavior that defies the rule. I've seen wild kids who have parents that are very together and used their best parenting techniques but to no avail. I've also seen high functioning kids with little parent structure and intervention. I'm safe with the notion that physical punishment is the least effective method and leads to short term as well as long term damage. You do see successful kids whose parents were physical, but with those kids I've also seen emotional effects later on in life after they no longer have to toe the line out of fear of physical punishment.

    There's always exceptions. And, yes, it is a last resort of sorts. (though not really - boarding school is :lol: )

    But, there is a place for it - within reason.

    Yes, there are children that get along fine without much if any intervention. Each child is different and responds differently to different types of discipline. But, it should no more be completely dismissed as used as completely out of control as what started this thread. It should also not be used on its own. But, then again, no punishment no matter how delicate has any chance of being effective if you don't tell the child what they did wrong and get them to help you indicate how they can fix it.

    If you have gone to the point where they no longer fear physical punishment, you've probably gone over the line. It's not meant as a beating.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.

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