Edson, I wish I could totally agree with you here. I'm guessing you are a parent and a good one at that. Unfortunately, I've known a few parents who did just just what Go Beavers said, hit their kids as an outlet for their anger, not to create behavior change but used that as justification. Fortunately, most parents aren't like that, but sadly some are.
Obviously. That's true with anything. There are folks you can trust with a gun and some you can't. So do you disarm everyone? Or, do you try to manage it as best you can without taking folks rights away?
(I am actually anti-gun, but the freedom part is a valid point, and it is only used here as an analogy).
The fact is, I coach, and while I would never lay a finger on another child, there are times when you realize which kids are disciplined (period -whether it's with spanking or not), and those that have not. And, knowing these kids as well as I do, it correlates directly to their school results. Being around these kids for any amount of time, you can see the ones that will succeed and those that won't. And it plays itself out in school. And it's parental discipline that is the common denominator in the successful kids.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Anyone who thinks this is corporal punishment needs to reevaluate exactly what they think that is. This is nothing but physical and emotional abuse. Spanking a kid is one thing, but cursing them, and hitting them all over their body with a belt with every ounce of strength you have is something totally different.
I don't think anyone has defended what this father and MOTHER did (I'm still not sure why she keeps skating in a lot of these posts).
Though you do raise a good point. I think there are folks on this thread that think folks that are saying spanking is okay are tacitly approving of this. I've noticed that a lot about the AMT. Folks are very extreme in their interpretations of what folks write instead of just reading.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.
Anyone who thinks this is corporal punishment needs to reevaluate exactly what they think that is. This is nothing but physical and emotional abuse. Spanking a kid is one thing, but cursing them, and hitting them all over their body with a belt with every ounce of strength you have is something totally different.
I don't think anyone has defended what this father and MOTHER did (I'm still not sure why she keeps skating in a lot of these posts).
Though you do raise a good point. I think there are folks on this thread that think folks that are saying spanking is okay are tacitly approving of this. I've noticed that a lot about the AMT. Folks are very extreme in their interpretations of what folks write instead of just reading.
I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.
Really? YEs, the father was out of control. No debates there. But, the mother was in on it. And your description of here doing that to let it end quicker is silly. If I did something like that, not only would my wife have tried to stop me, if I continued, I assume she would do something more.
And if she was abused, also, why not already come out and say that? AT this point, she's safe. Your reading of this makes little sense to me. Yes, the father was controlling of the mother, too. OF that, I have no doubt. But, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you did even if you did it under "brainwash." There's something else here.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Unfortunately, women in abusive relationships don't always know what to do to make it stop. They're divorced now, so his abuse may have been something mentioned in the divorce proceedings or he may have settled with her and had some sort of confidentiality agreement in it due to his stature as a judge. She may also still believe that her beatings were her own fault in some way. It's easy to say what should have been done as an outside observer but it's another thing to know what to do in the moment. What if her interference sent him into an even greater rage? For all we know, that's what happened in previous instances when she tried to interfere and she decided that if interfering in that way only made it worse then perhaps she could lessen the beatings by the means shown in that tape.
I think the mother is skating because there's the possibility that her actions were an attempt to end the beating without making the father even angrier. I get the feeling that when she told the daughter to "take it like a woman" that she may have been trying to get the daughter to give in and get it over with sooner (or she could be a total lunatic like the dad, too). She hit the daughter once and thought that was the end of it but the father came back for more. You can hear the mother tell him that it's over but he says, "I didn't get my licks in." That sentence is more than enough evidence to prove that he wasn't simply punishing her for an illegal download, he viewed it as a demonstration of his power and control over her and the fact that he didn't get to beat her on her ass was eating at him and he didn't want to seem weak as is the beatings on the legs and slaps to the face, etc. weren't enough. From the audio I've heard and the comments the father has made over the past 2 days, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that he beat his wife, too.
Really? YEs, the father was out of control. No debates there. But, the mother was in on it. And your description of here doing that to let it end quicker is silly. If I did something like that, not only would my wife have tried to stop me, if I continued, I assume she would do something more.
And if she was abused, also, why not already come out and say that? AT this point, she's safe. Your reading of this makes little sense to me. Yes, the father was controlling of the mother, too. OF that, I have no doubt. But, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you did even if you did it under "brainwash." There's something else here.
I certainly am not in the camp that says you need to be a parent in order to comment on parenting...I mean, most of us aren't the president but we comment on him just the same, most of us aren't quarterbacks but many of us comment on their play...
That being said, while i see this video as excessive punishment and not something I would support in any manor, I do believe that corporal punishment has a place in child rearing. I don't ever want to have to spank my daughter, as you can see
>
I just put her in a cage anyway (just kidding in case anyone is hyper sensitive)
But when I was spanked as a child it was never in the moment and it was never done in anger. That is where the difference lies with me. If you do it in anger it isn't for the kid.
The thing that makes this punishment abuse rather than simple parental spanking, is the tone and anger with which it was delivered. Growing up I had my share of spankings with a stick from the bottom of the old pull down shades, and I deserved every one of them. The benefit I had was a parent who came in, sat me down, and explained to me why my actions deserved this and never did the spanking out of anger.
I occasionally got the wooden spoon as a kid, but I can't remember any specifics of how or why it happened... But, as far as your post, I just don't understand that approach either... I just can't picture sitting my kid down, calmly telling him why his actions were wrong, and that he somehow deserves me smacking him with something and then hitting him.
Looking back on my childhood, like I said, I got the wooden spoon once in a while... The only thing I remember was that it was my mother smacking me. But as a teenager (or even in my adult life), I don't remember ever fearing facing her when I did something stupid. I don't remember my dad every hitting me or being mean to me, but the one consequence I always feared was letting him down or disappointing him with what I did.
well it taught me a few things:
1...probably the most important thing... punishment doesn't mean they don't love you.
2...It taught me to respect rules as I understood consequences. Now I am sure it is possible to teach kids consequences other ways, but I think all too easily those ways become less effective through inconsistency.
3...It really did work as a deterrent on me. I was actually a good kid all things considered. Still hate breaking the rules even when no one is watching...
I didn't say it was the best way, I just said it was effective on me. I will say the only thing kids need is punishment and consistency. I don't think much else matters as long as the punishment fits the crime and you are consistent with how you do it.
I think people who were spanked as a kid are all too easy to dismiss it as a useful tool. Sure you weren't afraid of spankings as an young adult, but the fear as a kid was probably very real. As you said you don't remember, and it could be completely different. I just know how it worked for me. I also have a lot of experience as a youth hockey coach. Punishment is very necessary in that environment and if you aren't cosistent they will eat you alive. I don't beat them in a me punching them kind of way, but the fear of a good skate can generally keep them in line, as long as I follow through
As long as it doesn't cross into abuse, like it did here, I have no problem with corporal punishment, and plan to use it myself if my daughter deserves it...
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Unfortunately, women in abusive relationships don't always know what to do to make it stop. They're divorced now, so his abuse may have been something mentioned in the divorce proceedings or he may have settled with her and had some sort of confidentiality agreement in it due to his stature as a judge. She may also still believe that her beatings were her own fault in some way. It's easy to say what should have been done as an outside observer but it's another thing to know what to do in the moment. What if her interference sent him into an even greater rage? For all we know, that's what happened in previous instances when she tried to interfere and she decided that if interfering in that way only made it worse then perhaps she could lessen the beatings by the means shown in that tape.
I don't know. It all seems so weird. Yes, I'm sure these some semblence of what you are saying here. But, there's something more. Maybe, it's just because I'm cynical.
The mom mentioned the father threatened to get the custody of the younger daughter changed. If abuse was agreed to in the first proceeding, I don't see why this would be an issue. Sure, he's a judge in the family court. But, at some point that would have to come to light. Plus, I do believe the car thing he said. Again, no justification, but both those things point to WHY it came out now.
There's just something here that doesn't make sense. He hits the girl on the but. Threatens the face, but goes for the butt. Gets leg. Yes, I understand abusers sometimes learn how and where to hit to hide marks. But, those actions don't seem to fit with an abuser. Plus, again, the both women say it went on for a short while. That also doesn't make sense. Abusers don't suddenly stop. And why is there no indication of abuse to the younger child? It wreaks of pent up anger (and rightfully so), not solving a problem as they contend. There are some pieces missing here. And I think it has to do with the mom and it's not coming out because of the custody issue. Because, there's not much worse they could do to the dad short of revealing he was also a pedophile.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Edson, I wish I could totally agree with you here. I'm guessing you are a parent and a good one at that. Unfortunately, I've known a few parents who did just just what Go Beavers said, hit their kids as an outlet for their anger, not to create behavior change but used that as justification. Fortunately, most parents aren't like that, but sadly some are.
Obviously. That's true with anything. There are folks you can trust with a gun and some you can't. So do you disarm everyone? Or, do you try to manage it as best you can without taking folks rights away?
(I am actually anti-gun, but the freedom part is a valid point, and it is only used here as an analogy).
The fact is, I coach, and while I would never lay a finger on another child, there are times when you realize which kids are disciplined (period -whether it's with spanking or not), and those that have not. And, knowing these kids as well as I do, it correlates directly to their school results. Being around these kids for any amount of time, you can see the ones that will succeed and those that won't. And it plays itself out in school. And it's parental discipline that is the common denominator in the successful kids.
You can often identify which kid has been disciplined effectively without corporal punishment, the ones whose parents used it, and the ones who had very little discipline (if we can over generalize for a moment). You can also see behavior that defies the rule. I've seen wild kids who have parents that are very together and used their best parenting techniques but to no avail. I've also seen high functioning kids with little parent structure and intervention. I'm safe with the notion that physical punishment is the least effective method and leads to short term as well as long term damage. You do see successful kids whose parents were physical, but with those kids I've also seen emotional effects later on in life after they no longer have to toe the line out of fear of physical punishment.
You can often identify which kid has been disciplined effectively without corporal punishment, the ones whose parents used it, and the ones who had very little discipline (if we can over generalize for a moment). You can also see behavior that defies the rule. I've seen wild kids who have parents that are very together and used their best parenting techniques but to no avail. I've also seen high functioning kids with little parent structure and intervention. I'm safe with the notion that physical punishment is the least effective method and leads to short term as well as long term damage. You do see successful kids whose parents were physical, but with those kids I've also seen emotional effects later on in life after they no longer have to toe the line out of fear of physical punishment.
There's always exceptions. And, yes, it is a last resort of sorts. (though not really - boarding school is )
But, there is a place for it - within reason.
Yes, there are children that get along fine without much if any intervention. Each child is different and responds differently to different types of discipline. But, it should no more be completely dismissed as used as completely out of control as what started this thread. It should also not be used on its own. But, then again, no punishment no matter how delicate has any chance of being effective if you don't tell the child what they did wrong and get them to help you indicate how they can fix it.
If you have gone to the point where they no longer fear physical punishment, you've probably gone over the line. It's not meant as a beating.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
As a parent, I have no idea how anyone would even think about taking out a belt and whipping their child.
Sure you get angry and frustrated, but you need to calm down before disciplining a child of any age. All you are teaching is to lash out if you don't.
I do agree with this. I had the belt used on me. Not excessively, but I got it. Not a big deal. But, I would never use any sort of weapon on my children. I don't understand that line of thinking, and it has nothing to do with my previous self -experience. I guess that's my line.
A hand slap to the butt is as far as I would go.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I'm glad I was able to open some honest dialogue regarding this issue of corporal punishment in the home.
I think that is becomes a fine line that is often times blurred when we, as a society, are allowed access to the closed doors of our neighbor's homes and their bedrooms. I feel, this example is something we need to think about, before we simply jump into the personal affairs of someone else's family.
Yes... of course... if we were to witness this horrible act in a public setting, we would ALL try to do something... from physical intervention to a call to 9-1-1... right? None of us (except the most cowardly) would stand by and do nothing... IF it were commiited in Public.
But, in the the private confines of our homes... does the same apply? Yes, still the same horrible act... and yes, just as horrible as wife beating, rape, molestation... no one is implying that illegal acts are okay as long as it's done behind closed doors. The issue is parental corporal punishment as a form of descipline and how far is too far... and who gets to be the one that makes the call whether or not that boundry has been crossed?
I'm just saying... it's a tougher call than the viedo camera presents.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm glad I was able to open some honest dialogue regarding this issue of corporal punishment in the home.
I think that is becomes a fine line that is often times blurred when we, as a society, are allowed access to the closed doors of our neighbor's homes and their bedrooms. I feel, this example is something we need to think about, before we simply jump into the personal affairs of someone else's family.
Yes... of course... if we were to witness this horrible act in a public setting, we would ALL try to do something... from physical intervention to a call to 9-1-1... right? None of us (except the most cowardly) would stand by and do nothing... IF it were commiited in Public.
But, in the the private confines of our homes... does the same apply? Yes, still the same horrible act... and yes, just as horrible as wife beating, rape, molestation... no one is implying that illegal acts are okay as long as it's done behind closed doors. The issue is parental corporal punishment as a form of descipline and how far is too far... and who gets to be the one that makes the call whether or not that boundry has been crossed?
I'm just saying... it's a tougher call than the viedo camera presents.
I don't mind the debate on corporal punishment, but what was on that video can't really fit into anyone's view of acceptable corporal punishment, can it?
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I don't mind the debate on corporal punishment, but what was on that video can't really fit into anyone's view of acceptable corporal punishment, can it?
...
If we are speaking purely in specifics... no.
But, are there acceptable limits?
For example, instead of a 16 year old girl with palsy... had it been a 16 you old boy with no physical disabilities... and instead of the father... it was the mother, doleing out the punishment. Similar? Different?
What if the crime was residential vandalism and the cops dropped the kid off at the parents doorstep? Or what if there was no belt involved, just an open hand?
I'm just trying to see if there are acceptable limits... and which of us gets to set those as standards.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't mind the debate on corporal punishment, but what was on that video can't really fit into anyone's view of acceptable corporal punishment, can it?
...
If we are speaking purely in specifics... no.
But, are there acceptable limits?
For example, instead of a 16 year old girl with palsy... had it been a 16 you old boy with no physical disabilities... and instead of the father... it was the mother, doleing out the punishment. Similar? Different?
What if the crime was residential vandalism and the cops dropped the kid off at the parents doorstep? Or what if there was no belt involved, just an open hand?
I'm just trying to see if there are acceptable limits... and which of us gets to set those as standards.
same cosmo.. whacking a child with a belt is whacking a child with a belt. what the supposed crime is doesnt change that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't mind the debate on corporal punishment, but what was on that video can't really fit into anyone's view of acceptable corporal punishment, can it?
...
If we are speaking purely in specifics... no.
But, are there acceptable limits?
For example, instead of a 16 year old girl with palsy... had it been a 16 you old boy with no physical disabilities... and instead of the father... it was the mother, doleing out the punishment. Similar? Different?
What if the crime was residential vandalism and the cops dropped the kid off at the parents doorstep? Or what if there was no belt involved, just an open hand?
I'm just trying to see if there are acceptable limits... and which of us gets to set those as standards.
When the beating lasts several minutes, and is accompanied by cursing, degrading language, it doesn't matter who is doleling it out to me or who the child was. Wherever that "limit" is, this is well past that into abuse and assault.
I just don't get how corporal punishment for a highschool-aged kid has any objective besides being a release for the beater's anger. At that point in life, it's not going to accomplish anything, but make the teenager hate their parents more.
While I disagree with it, paddling an 11 year old a few times for something will at least maybe instill some fear into him/her about doing something like that again, I just can't see it doing anything for a 16 year old besides increasing the anger/hatred/hostility in the family relationship.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
When the beating lasts several minutes, and is accompanied by cursing, degrading language, it doesn't matter who is doleling it out to me or who the child was. Wherever that "limit" is, this is well past that into abuse and assault.
I just don't get how corporal punishment for a highschool-aged kid has any objective besides being a release for the beater's anger. At that point in life, it's not going to accomplish anything, but make the teenager hate their parents more.
While I disagree with it, paddling an 11 year old a few times for something will at least maybe instill some fear into him/her about doing something like that again, I just can't see it doing anything for a 16 year old besides increasing the anger/hatred/hostility in the family relationship.
...
Thanx for that.
And I hope that no one believes I condone this... I do not. I would have unplugged that damn computer and removed the CPU and locked in my desk drawer in my office and made her earn the money to pay for those songs and games. After she has paid for those things, I would restore her computer, limit her access until she has proven her responsibility.
What I am trying to bring into discussion is the role of corporal punishment as a parenting tool. Are there limits? If so, what are those limits and who gets to set them... parents or society?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
When the beating lasts several minutes, and is accompanied by cursing, degrading language, it doesn't matter who is doleling it out to me or who the child was. Wherever that "limit" is, this is well past that into abuse and assault.
I just don't get how corporal punishment for a highschool-aged kid has any objective besides being a release for the beater's anger. At that point in life, it's not going to accomplish anything, but make the teenager hate their parents more.
While I disagree with it, paddling an 11 year old a few times for something will at least maybe instill some fear into him/her about doing something like that again, I just can't see it doing anything for a 16 year old besides increasing the anger/hatred/hostility in the family relationship.
...
Thanx for that.
And I hope that no one believes I condone this... I do not. I would have unplugged that damn computer and removed the CPU and locked in my desk drawer in my office and made her earn the money to pay for those songs and games. After she has paid for those things, I would restore her computer, limit her access until she has proven her responsibility.
What I am trying to bring into discussion is the role of corporal punishment as a parenting tool. Are there limits? If so, what are those limits and who gets to set them... parents or society?
When the beating lasts several minutes, and is accompanied by cursing, degrading language, it doesn't matter who is doleling it out to me or who the child was. Wherever that "limit" is, this is well past that into abuse and assault.
I just don't get how corporal punishment for a highschool-aged kid has any objective besides being a release for the beater's anger. At that point in life, it's not going to accomplish anything, but make the teenager hate their parents more.
While I disagree with it, paddling an 11 year old a few times for something will at least maybe instill some fear into him/her about doing something like that again, I just can't see it doing anything for a 16 year old besides increasing the anger/hatred/hostility in the family relationship.
...
Thanx for that.
And I hope that no one believes I condone this... I do not. I would have unplugged that damn computer and removed the CPU and locked in my desk drawer in my office and made her earn the money to pay for those songs and games. After she has paid for those things, I would restore her computer, limit her access until she has proven her responsibility.
What I am trying to bring into discussion is the role of corporal punishment as a parenting tool. Are there limits? If so, what are those limits and who gets to set them... parents or society?
Legal limits mainly focus on physical intervention, established the usual way through the legal system. There are grey area situations that Child Protective Service caseworkers struggle with daily, though. There's plenty of emotional and verbal abuse that's legal.
Legal limits mainly focus on physical intervention, established the usual way through the legal system. There are grey area situations that Child Protective Service caseworkers struggle with daily, though. There's plenty of emotional and verbal abuse that's legal.
...
Thanx for that.
And yeah, it's a tough call.
On one side, the kid did something wrong (stealing) and punishment is in order.
On the other side is the dicipline. Is spanking allowed? When does end and beatings begin?
Example, how would we feel if he were spanking his 16 year old in that ass with an open hand... would it lead us to lean a towards sexual assault?
...
It's a tough call. Where does society's responsibilities end and parental skills kick in? And vice-versa.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Obviously. That's true with anything. There are folks you can trust with a gun and some you can't. So do you disarm everyone? Or, do you try to manage it as best you can without taking folks rights away?
(I am actually anti-gun, but the freedom part is a valid point, and it is only used here as an analogy).
The fact is, I coach, and while I would never lay a finger on another child, there are times when you realize which kids are disciplined (period -whether it's with spanking or not), and those that have not. And, knowing these kids as well as I do, it correlates directly to their school results. Being around these kids for any amount of time, you can see the ones that will succeed and those that won't. And it plays itself out in school. And it's parental discipline that is the common denominator in the successful kids.
I don't think anyone has defended what this father and MOTHER did (I'm still not sure why she keeps skating in a lot of these posts).
Though you do raise a good point. I think there are folks on this thread that think folks that are saying spanking is okay are tacitly approving of this. I've noticed that a lot about the AMT. Folks are very extreme in their interpretations of what folks write instead of just reading.
yep just in case.. who knows what the little buggers have been getting up to.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Really? YEs, the father was out of control. No debates there. But, the mother was in on it. And your description of here doing that to let it end quicker is silly. If I did something like that, not only would my wife have tried to stop me, if I continued, I assume she would do something more.
And if she was abused, also, why not already come out and say that? AT this point, she's safe. Your reading of this makes little sense to me. Yes, the father was controlling of the mother, too. OF that, I have no doubt. But, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you did even if you did it under "brainwash." There's something else here.
well it taught me a few things:
1...probably the most important thing... punishment doesn't mean they don't love you.
2...It taught me to respect rules as I understood consequences. Now I am sure it is possible to teach kids consequences other ways, but I think all too easily those ways become less effective through inconsistency.
3...It really did work as a deterrent on me. I was actually a good kid all things considered. Still hate breaking the rules even when no one is watching...
I didn't say it was the best way, I just said it was effective on me. I will say the only thing kids need is punishment and consistency. I don't think much else matters as long as the punishment fits the crime and you are consistent with how you do it.
I think people who were spanked as a kid are all too easy to dismiss it as a useful tool. Sure you weren't afraid of spankings as an young adult, but the fear as a kid was probably very real. As you said you don't remember, and it could be completely different. I just know how it worked for me. I also have a lot of experience as a youth hockey coach. Punishment is very necessary in that environment and if you aren't cosistent they will eat you alive. I don't beat them in a me punching them kind of way, but the fear of a good skate can generally keep them in line, as long as I follow through
As long as it doesn't cross into abuse, like it did here, I have no problem with corporal punishment, and plan to use it myself if my daughter deserves it...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't know. It all seems so weird. Yes, I'm sure these some semblence of what you are saying here. But, there's something more. Maybe, it's just because I'm cynical.
The mom mentioned the father threatened to get the custody of the younger daughter changed. If abuse was agreed to in the first proceeding, I don't see why this would be an issue. Sure, he's a judge in the family court. But, at some point that would have to come to light. Plus, I do believe the car thing he said. Again, no justification, but both those things point to WHY it came out now.
There's just something here that doesn't make sense. He hits the girl on the but. Threatens the face, but goes for the butt. Gets leg. Yes, I understand abusers sometimes learn how and where to hit to hide marks. But, those actions don't seem to fit with an abuser. Plus, again, the both women say it went on for a short while. That also doesn't make sense. Abusers don't suddenly stop. And why is there no indication of abuse to the younger child? It wreaks of pent up anger (and rightfully so), not solving a problem as they contend. There are some pieces missing here. And I think it has to do with the mom and it's not coming out because of the custody issue. Because, there's not much worse they could do to the dad short of revealing he was also a pedophile.
You can often identify which kid has been disciplined effectively without corporal punishment, the ones whose parents used it, and the ones who had very little discipline (if we can over generalize for a moment). You can also see behavior that defies the rule. I've seen wild kids who have parents that are very together and used their best parenting techniques but to no avail. I've also seen high functioning kids with little parent structure and intervention. I'm safe with the notion that physical punishment is the least effective method and leads to short term as well as long term damage. You do see successful kids whose parents were physical, but with those kids I've also seen emotional effects later on in life after they no longer have to toe the line out of fear of physical punishment.
There's always exceptions. And, yes, it is a last resort of sorts. (though not really - boarding school is
But, there is a place for it - within reason.
Yes, there are children that get along fine without much if any intervention. Each child is different and responds differently to different types of discipline. But, it should no more be completely dismissed as used as completely out of control as what started this thread. It should also not be used on its own. But, then again, no punishment no matter how delicate has any chance of being effective if you don't tell the child what they did wrong and get them to help you indicate how they can fix it.
If you have gone to the point where they no longer fear physical punishment, you've probably gone over the line. It's not meant as a beating.
Sure you get angry and frustrated, but you need to calm down before disciplining a child of any age. All you are teaching is to lash out if you don't.
I do agree with this. I had the belt used on me. Not excessively, but I got it. Not a big deal. But, I would never use any sort of weapon on my children. I don't understand that line of thinking, and it has nothing to do with my previous self -experience. I guess that's my line.
A hand slap to the butt is as far as I would go.
I think that is becomes a fine line that is often times blurred when we, as a society, are allowed access to the closed doors of our neighbor's homes and their bedrooms. I feel, this example is something we need to think about, before we simply jump into the personal affairs of someone else's family.
Yes... of course... if we were to witness this horrible act in a public setting, we would ALL try to do something... from physical intervention to a call to 9-1-1... right? None of us (except the most cowardly) would stand by and do nothing... IF it were commiited in Public.
But, in the the private confines of our homes... does the same apply? Yes, still the same horrible act... and yes, just as horrible as wife beating, rape, molestation... no one is implying that illegal acts are okay as long as it's done behind closed doors. The issue is parental corporal punishment as a form of descipline and how far is too far... and who gets to be the one that makes the call whether or not that boundry has been crossed?
I'm just saying... it's a tougher call than the viedo camera presents.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't mind the debate on corporal punishment, but what was on that video can't really fit into anyone's view of acceptable corporal punishment, can it?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
If we are speaking purely in specifics... no.
But, are there acceptable limits?
For example, instead of a 16 year old girl with palsy... had it been a 16 you old boy with no physical disabilities... and instead of the father... it was the mother, doleing out the punishment. Similar? Different?
What if the crime was residential vandalism and the cops dropped the kid off at the parents doorstep? Or what if there was no belt involved, just an open hand?
I'm just trying to see if there are acceptable limits... and which of us gets to set those as standards.
Hail, Hail!!!
same cosmo.. whacking a child with a belt is whacking a child with a belt. what the supposed crime is doesnt change that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
When the beating lasts several minutes, and is accompanied by cursing, degrading language, it doesn't matter who is doleling it out to me or who the child was. Wherever that "limit" is, this is well past that into abuse and assault.
I just don't get how corporal punishment for a highschool-aged kid has any objective besides being a release for the beater's anger. At that point in life, it's not going to accomplish anything, but make the teenager hate their parents more.
While I disagree with it, paddling an 11 year old a few times for something will at least maybe instill some fear into him/her about doing something like that again, I just can't see it doing anything for a 16 year old besides increasing the anger/hatred/hostility in the family relationship.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Thanx for that.
And I hope that no one believes I condone this... I do not. I would have unplugged that damn computer and removed the CPU and locked in my desk drawer in my office and made her earn the money to pay for those songs and games. After she has paid for those things, I would restore her computer, limit her access until she has proven her responsibility.
What I am trying to bring into discussion is the role of corporal punishment as a parenting tool. Are there limits? If so, what are those limits and who gets to set them... parents or society?
Hail, Hail!!!
Legal limits mainly focus on physical intervention, established the usual way through the legal system. There are grey area situations that Child Protective Service caseworkers struggle with daily, though. There's plenty of emotional and verbal abuse that's legal.
Thanx for that.
And yeah, it's a tough call.
On one side, the kid did something wrong (stealing) and punishment is in order.
On the other side is the dicipline. Is spanking allowed? When does end and beatings begin?
Example, how would we feel if he were spanking his 16 year old in that ass with an open hand... would it lead us to lean a towards sexual assault?
...
It's a tough call. Where does society's responsibilities end and parental skills kick in? And vice-versa.
Hail, Hail!!!