Americans favor Occupy Wall Street far more than Tea Party

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...

And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...

And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?

if i were crafting legislation i would make it illegal to rob from the taxpayers' health care fund to pay for anything. i would even propose a constitutional ammendment stating that. i feel that strongly that universal health insurance and access to healthcare for american citizens is an inalienable right.

they say medicare will be insolvent in 2019. we have about 7 years to make the appropriate changes.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.

so what is your solution?

and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...

Go Beavers · October 2011

EdsonNascimento wrote:

How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.

You're always going to bat for the status quo.

Monster Rain · October 2011

Here's what I would do:

1. Cut everyone's taxes. The highest rate gets cut from 35% to 30% and every other bracket gets at least a 15% reduction (slightly more than the 14.3% reduction the top bracket would get). This would give everyone a little more of their income to save, spend, put towards bills, etc. My hope would be that the middle and lower classes would be able to get by a little easier and the higher income classes would put some of that money back into the economy by purchasing more goods and hiring more contractors, landscapers, etc. for work on their homes. If you're a contractor or landscaper, think about what even one additional good job means to your income.

2. Pass a Balanced Budget Amendment. Put something pants-shittingly scary in there to make Congress balance the budget like a clause that mandates every seat in both houses will be up for election that November if the budget isn't balanced by a certain date.

3. Scale back our troops in Iraq and get them 100% out ASAP. Obviously, it has to be done in a way that doesn't make it increasingly dangerous for the troops who aren't the first to leave and Iraq isn't thrown to the wolves, but the reduction in spending would be a help. This has been going on long enough and the cost is ridiculous.

4. Reduce pretty much every government program and agency by varying degrees depending on their importance. If that means 1-ply toilet paper in every government building (including the White House and Capitol), no more government-supplied coffee/sugar/creamer in governemnt offices, and some programs having to figure out ways to save money on their other crap, then so be it. Meetings over breakfast, lunch, or dinner? Done, unless the person calling the meeting wants to pay for it on his/her own. Also, use video conferencing for any meeting that would otherwise require travel and does not involve classified or otherwise sensitive information (in otherwords, don't make the heads of every regional FBI office fly to DC and stay overnight for a conference in some hotel's meeting room). Make it mandatory that all PCs, lights, etc. are turned off in all government offices at the end of the day and start disciplining people who don't follow this protocol. In the name of public safety, budget cuts cannot be met by reducing staff in critical areas such as FBI/ICE agents (and staff reductions in general should be the absolute last resort used only when a job is unnecessary).

mikepegg44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...

The government cannot simply create jobs without other problems. It can pay private companies to do work for them sure, or hire workers to do the jobs themselves...either way they need to BORROW to accomplish this...Making each and every dollar they will pay the worker worth less, raising the cost of goods for everyone. Inflation is a very serious thing. I don't think people understand the concept very well if they continue to think that government deficit spending is a way to get out of this crisis. This crisis isn't about jobs, it is more about flawed monetary and fiscal policies and a system exacerbated by incompetent executive and legislative branches of government. Freeing markets is how we get out of the problem, but so many people think the current state of Crony capitalism is synonymous with a free market that they will fight this tooth and nail because they have seen the results of Crony Capitalism. Rather they choose to stick with the arcane idea that government spending is how you get out of an economic crisis. More debt will never be the solution, and taking more money out of the private sector won't be either. Government fostering policies that help the private sector to create new wealth is how you get out of it. Freeing markets and opening up true competitive market places without the threat of government intervention so we can compete on a global stage...
More to the tax problem, You all realize that if taxes are raised on the rich they will still take home the same amount if not more...the only difference is that we will have almost everything we buy cost more to accomplish this feat. Do you honestly think they will simply take having their incomes cut lying down? all the while less people will be working. Honestly I think that raising the taxes on the rich, punishes the poor as much as if you raise taxes on them directly.

I know you can appreciate the sentiment Gimmie, but a wise man told me a war on terror is like a war on jealousy

... I would like to think that same thinking extends to a war on Greed, which is what seems to be waging right now...the government cannot eliminate greed, nor should they want to...through greed can come prosperity for more Americans, the governments job should be to focus solely on cultivating the greed and creating the situation where corporations can show an increase in profits through the hiring of American workers...

whygohome · October 2011

mikepegg44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...

The government cannot simply create jobs without other problems. It can pay private companies to do work for them sure, or hire workers to do the jobs themselves...either way they need to BORROW to accomplish this...Making each and every dollar they will pay the worker worth less, raising the cost of goods for everyone. Inflation is a very serious thing. I don't think people understand the concept very well if they continue to think that government deficit spending is a way to get out of this crisis. This crisis isn't about jobs, it is more about flawed monetary and fiscal policies and a system exacerbated by incompetent executive and legislative branches of government. Freeing markets is how we get out of the problem, but so many people think the current state of Crony capitalism is synonymous with a free market that they will fight this tooth and nail because they have seen the results of Crony Capitalism. Rather they choose to stick with the arcane idea that government spending is how you get out of an economic crisis. More debt will never be the solution, and taking more money out of the private sector won't be either. Government fostering policies that help the private sector to create new wealth is how you get out of it. Freeing markets and opening up true competitive market places without the threat of government intervention so we can compete on a global stage...
More to the tax problem, You all realize that if taxes are raised on the rich they will still take home the same amount if not more...the only difference is that we will have almost everything we buy cost more to accomplish this feat. Do you honestly think they will simply take having their incomes cut lying down? all the while less people will be working. Honestly I think that raising the taxes on the rich, punishes the poor as much as if you raise taxes on them directly.

I know you can appreciate the sentiment Gimmie, but a wise man told me a war on terror is like a war on jealousy ... I would like to think that same thinking extends to a war on Greed, which is what seems to be waging right now...the government cannot eliminate greed, nor should they want to...through greed can come prosperity for more Americans, the governments job should be to focus solely on cultivating the greed and creating the situation where corporations can show an increase in profits through the hiring of American workers...

Enough of this Gordon Gecko stuff--"cultivating the greed." The private sector doesn't care anymore. I am really perplexed about this idea that we simply allow the free market to take over, and that we allow corporations free reign to do as they please. All this with the delusion that this will bring prosperity back to this country. It will bring prosperity back to the few. yes, government needs to work better with corporate America; but, there needs to be balance. The government can create jobs: infrastructure, education, energy (this does work better with private sector cooperation). The best thing about this is that they create jobs in different sectors than corporations and small businesses do. It seems to be in fashion to divide, divide, and divide this country--especially its people--but what would benefit this nation and its citizens is if corp. America/the private sector and the gov't work together.
How do we remedy the problems we are facing? The fact that 42,000 factories have closed in the U.S. in the past 10 years? The fact that in 2008 and 2009 "American" companies were hemorrhaging thousands of jobs a month (and then sending them overseas). The fact that Nike, GE, Dell, and other "American" companies run by American CEOs can no longer be viewed as American companies, but rather multinational or global companies with their base(s) in America, is quite scary to a nation that is so used to be number one in so many areas where they are falling down the rankings at a very scary pace. How do we get jobs back to America when "American" corporations would rather take advantage of slave labor around the globe where they can pay "workers" $10 a week to work in sweatshops, rather than pay an American a decent livable wage? It is about profit, and always will be, and this is a serious, serious problem.
People will say "lower the corporate tax rate." Bull shit. This won't matter; it won't affect their profit margin because they are still able to pay those overseas a pathetic, criminal wage.
Trust me, I'm fine with the idea of a free-market; however, we have seen the reality/culmination of it, and it--in 2011 and into the future--does not benefit the American people.
It all comes down to $$$ and it always has. Quite sad.

mikepegg44 · October 2011

whygohome wrote:

Enough of this Gordon Gecko stuff--"cultivating the greed." The private sector doesn't care anymore. I am really perplexed about this idea that we simply allow the free market to take over, and that we allow corporations free reign to do as they please. All this with the delusion that this will bring prosperity back to this country. It will bring prosperity back to the few. yes, government needs to work better with corporate America; but, there needs to be balance. The government can create jobs: infrastructure, education, energy (this does work better with private sector cooperation). The best thing about this is that they create jobs in different sectors than corporations and small businesses do. It seems to be in fashion to divide, divide, and divide this country--especially its people--but what would benefit this nation and its citizens is if corp. America/the private sector and the gov't work together.
How do we remedy the problems we are facing? The fact that 42,000 factories have closed in the U.S. in the past 10 years? The fact that in 2008 and 2009 "American" companies were hemorrhaging thousands of jobs a month (and then sending them overseas). The fact that Nike, GE, Dell, and other "American" companies run by American CEOs can no longer be viewed as American companies, but rather multinational or global companies with their base(s) in America, is quite scary to a nation that is so used to be number one in so many areas where they are falling down the rankings at a very scary pace. How do we get jobs back to America when "American" corporations would rather take advantage of slave labor around the globe where they can pay "workers" $10 a week to work in sweatshops, rather than pay an American a decent livable wage? It is about profit, and always will be, and this is a serious, serious problem.
People will say "lower the corporate tax rate." Bull shit. This won't matter; it won't affect their profit margin because they are still able to pay those overseas a pathetic, criminal wage.
Trust me, I'm fine with the idea of a free-market; however, we have seen the reality/culmination of it, and it--in 2011 and into the future--does not benefit the American people.
It all comes down to $$$ and it always has. Quite sad.

First, When did the private sector care? and yes the government can pay money out to people, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Number one, like I said, inflation affects EVERYONE at that point, the more they borrow to pay for those "jobs", the more we go into debt. So in reality the government could give everyone a billion dollars tomorrow, and the next day you would see a pack of gum jump to 10,000 dollars.
The government can put people to work, it cannot create wealth. It can turn money from one person to another, and it can borrow it to make those payments. Either way it is an unsustainable system. We are seeing that now.

but it seems as though you aren't fine with a free market if you cannot separate what a real free market is from what we have now. Free Market doesn't mean personal/private property rights go away, free market does mean no government protected monopolies, a free market doesn't include wage setting like the fucking Bacon act, subsidizing the cost of goods, everything the government does in terms of no bid contracts... That is the exact misconception I was talking about. What it means is that the government does not regulate competition out of the market, it means that businesses that do shitty business will fail, and not be propped up by the government. You cannot characterize our market as a Free Market. You can characterize it as government protected capitalism...
You say quit with the greed is good stuff, but remind me again where innovation comes from without greed? Why would people improve any existing product without a better life as a motivator...Why invest in an idea like the ipod? How do you force those MNC's to do the "right" thing? You cannot force people to do the right thing, you cannot force businesses to do anything. You can reward them when they do, but if you punish them when they don't will take their ball and go home...Look into what happened when New Jersey raised there taxes...billions left the state and hasn't returned. That is the same thing that would happen here on a national stage.
What the government can do for the market is protect our businesses on an international stage, through strong monetary policy, and protection and proliferation of competition. But to try to do it on the domestic stage, it only lends to crony capitalism...corporate america is so entrenched in our government they can actually donate as a corporation. It isn't even crony capitalism anymore, this is more like nepotistic capitalism. It is disgusting.
We want the same thing, but as I have said before, I feel less government in the markets is better, some feel more is better. I see both sides, just happen to think one would be more successful. I think we can both agree that the current government (not administration specific) is a HUGE part of the problem can we not?

EdsonNascimento · October 2011

Go Beavers wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.

You're always going to bat for the status quo.

Very simplistic read.

It wouldn't matter how much the 1% had if the gov't would fuel the economy by getting the f out of the way which includes relooking at many of the mandates they have in place (not saying that no regulation is necessary. Just saying that oftentimes regulation adds expense, reduces jobs and hurts the economy for no real gain other than someone's crusade).

And if folks would focus on getting educated and trained on what the CURRENT economy (read: not 20 years' ago economy) needs, they would have jobs. Even the greedy pig capitalists like making money. And if you can help them make it, they're more than happy to give you a job. This concept that the so called 1% has a desire to amass great wealth, but is unwilling to provide jobs to those that can help them make it is cukoo. EDIT: for Cocoa Puffs!

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...

And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?

if i were crafting legislation i would make it illegal to rob from the taxpayers' health care fund to pay for anything. i would even propose a constitutional ammendment stating that. i feel that strongly that universal health insurance and access to healthcare for american citizens is an inalienable right.

they say medicare will be insolvent in 2019. we have about 7 years to make the appropriate changes.

Even though your check says you're paying into "Social Security" or "Medicare" or "Health Care," it's ultimately fungible income that goes into the same pot. Health care is not an inalienable right by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the obesity rates in this country vs. the rest of the world; expecting the collective to shoulder that burden when we don't take care of ourselves is insanity.

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.

so what is your solution?

and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...

We need to stabilize the currency, eliminate redundant areas of the federal government that can/are being handled by the states, drastically reduce our military presence across the globe, allow interest rates to fluctuate in line with the market, and eliminate foreign aid to name a few things.

Republicans and Democrats alike use the term "job creation" like that's the bullseye. It's a red herring. You need to fix the system and employment will follow.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

Even though your check says you're paying into "Social Security" or "Medicare" or "Health Care," it's ultimately fungible income that goes into the same pot. Health care is not an inalienable right by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the obesity rates in this country vs. the rest of the world; expecting the collective to shoulder that burden when we don't take care of ourselves is insanity.

i am not changing my position that health insurance and access to medical care is an inalienable right and should be universal for everyone. without good health and a way to maintain health, what the fuck good is the liberty and property?

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.

so what is your solution?

and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...

We need to stabilize the currency, eliminate redundant areas of the federal government that can/are being handled by the states, drastically reduce our military presence across the globe, allow interest rates to fluctuate in line with the market, and eliminate foreign aid to name a few things.

Republicans and Democrats alike use the term "job creation" like that's the bullseye. It's a red herring. You need to fix the system and employment will follow.

these are the same talking points i hear every day. conservatives spout these same tenets every day on here and you know what? none if it will ever get done. reduce our military presence? yeah right...what is ge and kbr going to think about that? those companies fund the re-election bids of your congresspeople. eliminate foreign aid? how is that going to work out if we cut foreign aid to israel, saudi arabia, pakistan, et al? where are we going to keep our troops and where are we going to launch our imperial attacks from? where are we going to get our oil from ? if we cut aid from the countries of the middle east they are going to tell us to "go dig your own oil".. it sounds all nice and great, but it won't ever happen.

who is the one talking "job creation"? the "job creators" are apparently the business people who are making prifits but not creating jobs. or if the jobs can not be created, but they exist on their own, these people are not filling those positions, yet they are the ones that the republicans claim to care so much about.. how can you incentivize them besides the tax breaks they already have?

how people making $20,000 a year can be a republican i will never ever know...

brandon10 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...

And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?

I guess you are saying that Canada is a better country than yours? Or just better poeple governing?

So instead of trying to fix your government and make your country better, you would just rather give up?

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

Even though your check says you're paying into "Social Security" or "Medicare" or "Health Care," it's ultimately fungible income that goes into the same pot. Health care is not an inalienable right by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the obesity rates in this country vs. the rest of the world; expecting the collective to shoulder that burden when we don't take care of ourselves is insanity.

i am not changing my position that health insurance and access to medical care is an inalienable right and should be universal for everyone. without good health and a way to maintain health, what the fuck good is the liberty and property?

There are scores of ways to maintain good health that cost nothing and, apparently, at least 30.6% of Americans ignore completely.

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

these are the same talking points i hear every day. conservatives spout these same tenets every day on here and you know what? none if it will ever get done. reduce our military presence? yeah right...what is ge and kbr going to think about that? those companies fund the re-election bids of your congresspeople. eliminate foreign aid? how is that going to work out if we cut foreign aid to israel, saudi arabia, pakistan, et al? where are we going to keep our troops and where are we going to launch our imperial attacks from? where are we going to get our oil from ? if we cut aid from the countries of the middle east they are going to tell us to "go dig your own oil".. it sounds all nice and great, but it won't ever happen.

You realize there are candidates that actually run on this platform, right? If you're looking for solutions, supporting those candidates will get a lot more accomplished than cynicism.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

There are scores of ways to maintain good health that cost nothing and, apparently, at least 30.6% of Americans ignore completely.

such as?

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

these are the same talking points i hear every day. conservatives spout these same tenets every day on here and you know what? none if it will ever get done. reduce our military presence? yeah right...what is ge and kbr going to think about that? those companies fund the re-election bids of your congresspeople. eliminate foreign aid? how is that going to work out if we cut foreign aid to israel, saudi arabia, pakistan, et al? where are we going to keep our troops and where are we going to launch our imperial attacks from? where are we going to get our oil from ? if we cut aid from the countries of the middle east they are going to tell us to "go dig your own oil".. it sounds all nice and great, but it won't ever happen.

You realize there are candidates that actually run on this platform, right? If you're looking for solutions, supporting those candidates will get a lot more accomplished than cynicism.

yes i do, but if ron paul only has 20% support of the republican party how is he going to win a general election?

pjl44 · October 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how people making $20,000 a year can be a republican i will never ever know...

Why should someone's salary directly correlate to their politics? Ideally, you should shape your beliefs on what would most benefit your entire country, state, municipality, etc. A prosperous environment means more opportunities for you. Getting caught up in this whole "my team" vs. "your team" paradigm is a big part of why things are crumbling.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2011

pjl44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how people making $20,000 a year can be a republican i will never ever know...

Why should someone's salary directly correlate to their politics? Ideally, you should shape your beliefs on what would most benefit your entire country, state, municipality, etc. A prosperous environment means more opportunities for you. Getting caught up in this whole "my team" vs. "your team" paradigm is a big part of why things are crumbling.

because salary dictates your lifestyle. why would someone on the brink of poverty advocate for millionaires and billionaires and big business? because they constantly support things against their own interests, and that is what baffles me.

Americans favor Occupy Wall Street far more than Tea Party

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