the libertarian aspects of the tea party and the liberal and progressive aspects of ows are not going to mix. they are fundamentally different and i don't see the tea party accepting the ows message and i think the ows has already categorically dismissed and rejected the tea party.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Eighty-five percent of the Democrats polled were opposed to the ruling, while 76% percent of Republicans and 81% of independents also said they were opposed. The nearly unanimous opposition crosses more than just party lines."
Both want government reform so that the government is no longer in the favor doing business. No bailouts, businesses should rise and fall on their own. You see, that isn't that different. So if you can reform politics to remove special interests, crony capitalism...I think both sides can agree that would make things better.
After reforming the entire political system, and mainly the corporate influence on the , then they can get back to disagreeing about where money and how much of it should be spent...they can get back to disagreeing about the role of the federal government...but that doesn't mean they disagree about getting rid of government sponsored crony capitalism.
So both see, at least should see, the current government system as the enemy...and as you know...the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But for all the conspiracy theorists I see on here about where the media drives wedges and all that to keep us all divided...why are they not seeing it here?
The biggest difference is that a lot of the O.W.S. group appear to be in strong favor of giving more money to a broken system as a first priority to fix the system. I think it's a response to being disgruntled, but over time I hope they understand that the request to increase taxes needs to occur after the system is fixed. Pouring more revenue into a broken system just increases the power of that system and lets them avoid an overhaul.
I'm hopeful that this logic will slowly become obvious to O.W.S. supporters. Otherwise, they are wasting their time.
I haven't read this whole thread, but to the title - of course they do. OWS is about hand outs. Tea Party is about no hand outs. Pretty simple to figure out which the 49% that pay no taxes would like.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I haven't read this whole thread, but to the title - of course they do. OWS is about hand outs. Tea Party is about no hand outs. Pretty simple to figure out which the 49% that pay no taxes would like.
What a disgusting response.---this was uncalled for, but I will leave it up to show my mistake for typing in such haste
OWS is not about handouts at all. I don't want and have never received a handout, nor do any of the people I have met. It's about fairness. Do we need to rattle off the statistics of wage stagnation, middle-class decline, factory closures, outsourcing imbalance, CEO and corporate greed and indifference, the poisoning of our rivers and lakes, the murder of 11 men in the gulf of Mexico or 26 men in the coal mines, the profits from war, or should we just continue to tell ourselves that facts don't mean a thing?
I haven't read this whole thread, but to the title - of course they do. OWS is about hand outs. Tea Party is about no hand outs. Pretty simple to figure out which the 49% that pay no taxes would like.
What a disgusting response.
OWS is not about handouts at all. I don't want and have never received a handout, nor do any of the people I have met. It's about fairness. Do we need to rattle off the statistics of wage stagnation, middle-class decline, factory closures, outsourcing imbalance, CEO and corporate greed and indifference, the poisoning of our rivers and lakes, the murder of 11 men in the gulf of Mexico or 26 men in the coal mines, the profits from war, or should we just continue to tell ourselves that facts don't mean a thing?
You're right. I mis-typed. It's 47% not 49%.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I haven't read this whole thread, but to the title - of course they do. OWS is about hand outs. Tea Party is about no hand outs. Pretty simple to figure out which the 49% that pay no taxes would like.
What a disgusting response.
OWS is not about handouts at all. I don't want and have never received a handout, nor do any of the people I have met. It's about fairness. Do we need to rattle off the statistics of wage stagnation, middle-class decline, factory closures, outsourcing imbalance, CEO and corporate greed and indifference, the poisoning of our rivers and lakes, the murder of 11 men in the gulf of Mexico or 26 men in the coal mines, the profits from war, or should we just continue to tell ourselves that facts don't mean a thing?
You're right. I mis-typed. It's 47% not 49%.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
***What a disgusting response.---this was uncalled for, but I will leave it up to show my mistake for typing in such haste****
When I read your reply on another thread--though it was a difficult read due to format --the first thing I thought of was Little league: everyone gets a trophy, even the team that finished 2-10. And yes, our--if you are in your 30s--generation was more "babied" than others....possibly.
But, I disagree that OWS has the attitude of "I want what the other guy has, and I don't want to work to get it" is false. I see it as a movement to change the current state of government and the corporate structure: two things that have not been done in decades. The current status quo is unsustainable. The negative trends in living standards, wages, poverty levels all point to that. The American Dream is becoming just that, a dream. The ladders to the middle class are being torn down. The trends--the facts--make this clear.
I don't think we can discount OWS because of some anti-liberal prejudices--I'm not accusing you of this, but this is what I have seen in most of the criticism.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
dude it is not about worrying about what rich people have, so stop characterizing this as a movement of jealous people. it is not about jealousy or coveting what other people have. not at all.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Why on earth would 1 person have 2 cars other than to destroy the environment that much faster?
the suv is for hauling all of my band shit to shows and i drive it in the winter when it snows and i need 4 wheel drive. the rest of the time is sits in the driveway collecting pollen.. once i am done with music the suv is the first thing to go.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
dude it is not about worrying about what rich people have, so stop characterizing this as a movement of jealous people. it is not about jealousy or coveting what other people have. not at all.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
I understand were your coming from. Being lumped in with the negatives the media reports about the OWS. The same thing happens to me on here when I stand for the Tea Party…..I get called a racist, uneducated, redneck……which I am so far away from that, that it shocked me the first couple of time it happened, so now I realize they just don’t educate themselves about the Tea Party and just repeat what they have been told.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
the libertarian aspects of the tea party and the liberal and progressive aspects of ows are not going to mix. they are fundamentally different and i don't see the tea party accepting the ows message and i think the ows has already categorically dismissed and rejected the tea party.
It's too bad, because together they could make a lot more headway than doing it apart. If people weren't so friggin' stubborn about their own agendas they'd see that progress would actually happen if we actually compromised. I'm starting to think that word is something that people in general see as unattainable because the majority are too selfish and unwilling to change. If we truly wanted change, we'd eat our pride and join forces.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
It's no one's fault but your own. Unbelievable yet so typical, to blame someone else for how we are rather than taking responsibility... :roll:
the libertarian aspects of the tea party and the liberal and progressive aspects of ows are not going to mix. they are fundamentally different and i don't see the tea party accepting the ows message and i think the ows has already categorically dismissed and rejected the tea party.
It's mostly because no one has any idea what either group stands for. People just impart whatever ideals they want onto either group depending on whatever bias they are going into it with. It's nice to see people blowing off steam, but it won't get productive until you have organization and a clear mission.
dude it is not about worrying about what rich people have, so stop characterizing this as a movement of jealous people. it is not about jealousy or coveting what other people have. not at all.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
For the record, I'm not as well off as you, spent my 401k building a log cabin, lost most of my money to medical bills, can't work so I'm going back to school (racking up more bills) and drive a paid off '98 Taurus. Money does NOT interest me. It does NOT make people happy; it makes people greedy.
But the thing I do have (besides a cozy house) is love and good people called family. This movement is by far not about materials. It's about taking back the power the People once had. People forget that government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We're the puppets, not Obama, and nearly everyone, except those in the protests, blindly accept that.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
It's no one's fault but your own. Unbelievable yet so typical, to blame someone else for how we are rather than taking responsibility... :roll:
EXACTLY! We agree!
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
dude it is not about worrying about what rich people have, so stop characterizing this as a movement of jealous people. it is not about jealousy or coveting what other people have. not at all.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
:thumbup:
Why is this so difficult to understand? This isn't a selfish, materialistic movement; it's focus is on making the country stronger. Plain and simple.
dude it is not about worrying about what rich people have, so stop characterizing this as a movement of jealous people. it is not about jealousy or coveting what other people have. not at all.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
:thumbup:
Why is this so difficult to understand? This isn't a selfish, materialistic movement; it's focus is on making the country stronger. Plain and simple.
I don't see any points in there that will make our country stronger, just life more comfortable. It's not about value judgments on people, but instead economics and math. Things like universal health care coverage are a really wonderful idea, but won't work in practice financially.
I don't see any points in there that will make our country stronger, just life more comfortable. It's not about value judgments on people, but instead economics and math. Things like universal health care coverage are a really wonderful idea, but won't work in practice financially.
you don't think so? without the bush tax cuts and the fucking wars we could pay for it.
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
and without a strong middle class to buy things the economy will never improve, so yes, we have to be more comfortable, so all of these changes are absolutely necessary..this will in turn make the country stronger...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I don't see any points in there that will make our country stronger, just life more comfortable. It's not about value judgments on people, but instead economics and math. Things like universal health care coverage are a really wonderful idea, but won't work in practice financially.
you don't think so? without the bush tax cuts and the fucking wars we could pay for it.
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
and without a strong middle class to buy things the economy will never improve, so yes, we have to be more comfortable, so all of these changes are absolutely necessary..this will in turn make the country stronger...
Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?
if i were crafting legislation i would make it illegal to rob from the taxpayers' health care fund to pay for anything. i would even propose a constitutional ammendment stating that. i feel that strongly that universal health insurance and access to healthcare for american citizens is an inalienable right.
they say medicare will be insolvent in 2019. we have about 7 years to make the appropriate changes.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.
so what is your solution?
and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
1. Cut everyone's taxes. The highest rate gets cut from 35% to 30% and every other bracket gets at least a 15% reduction (slightly more than the 14.3% reduction the top bracket would get). This would give everyone a little more of their income to save, spend, put towards bills, etc. My hope would be that the middle and lower classes would be able to get by a little easier and the higher income classes would put some of that money back into the economy by purchasing more goods and hiring more contractors, landscapers, etc. for work on their homes. If you're a contractor or landscaper, think about what even one additional good job means to your income.
2. Pass a Balanced Budget Amendment. Put something pants-shittingly scary in there to make Congress balance the budget like a clause that mandates every seat in both houses will be up for election that November if the budget isn't balanced by a certain date.
3. Scale back our troops in Iraq and get them 100% out ASAP. Obviously, it has to be done in a way that doesn't make it increasingly dangerous for the troops who aren't the first to leave and Iraq isn't thrown to the wolves, but the reduction in spending would be a help. This has been going on long enough and the cost is ridiculous.
4. Reduce pretty much every government program and agency by varying degrees depending on their importance. If that means 1-ply toilet paper in every government building (including the White House and Capitol), no more government-supplied coffee/sugar/creamer in governemnt offices, and some programs having to figure out ways to save money on their other crap, then so be it. Meetings over breakfast, lunch, or dinner? Done, unless the person calling the meeting wants to pay for it on his/her own. Also, use video conferencing for any meeting that would otherwise require travel and does not involve classified or otherwise sensitive information (in otherwords, don't make the heads of every regional FBI office fly to DC and stay overnight for a conference in some hotel's meeting room). Make it mandatory that all PCs, lights, etc. are turned off in all government offices at the end of the day and start disciplining people who don't follow this protocol. In the name of public safety, budget cuts cannot be met by reducing staff in critical areas such as FBI/ICE agents (and staff reductions in general should be the absolute last resort used only when a job is unnecessary).
and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...
The government cannot simply create jobs without other problems. It can pay private companies to do work for them sure, or hire workers to do the jobs themselves...either way they need to BORROW to accomplish this...Making each and every dollar they will pay the worker worth less, raising the cost of goods for everyone. Inflation is a very serious thing. I don't think people understand the concept very well if they continue to think that government deficit spending is a way to get out of this crisis. This crisis isn't about jobs, it is more about flawed monetary and fiscal policies and a system exacerbated by incompetent executive and legislative branches of government. Freeing markets is how we get out of the problem, but so many people think the current state of Crony capitalism is synonymous with a free market that they will fight this tooth and nail because they have seen the results of Crony Capitalism. Rather they choose to stick with the arcane idea that government spending is how you get out of an economic crisis. More debt will never be the solution, and taking more money out of the private sector won't be either. Government fostering policies that help the private sector to create new wealth is how you get out of it. Freeing markets and opening up true competitive market places without the threat of government intervention so we can compete on a global stage...
More to the tax problem, You all realize that if taxes are raised on the rich they will still take home the same amount if not more...the only difference is that we will have almost everything we buy cost more to accomplish this feat. Do you honestly think they will simply take having their incomes cut lying down? all the while less people will be working. Honestly I think that raising the taxes on the rich, punishes the poor as much as if you raise taxes on them directly.
I know you can appreciate the sentiment Gimmie, but a wise man told me a war on terror is like a war on jealousy ... I would like to think that same thinking extends to a war on Greed, which is what seems to be waging right now...the government cannot eliminate greed, nor should they want to...through greed can come prosperity for more Americans, the governments job should be to focus solely on cultivating the greed and creating the situation where corporations can show an increase in profits through the hiring of American workers...
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...
The government cannot simply create jobs without other problems. It can pay private companies to do work for them sure, or hire workers to do the jobs themselves...either way they need to BORROW to accomplish this...Making each and every dollar they will pay the worker worth less, raising the cost of goods for everyone. Inflation is a very serious thing. I don't think people understand the concept very well if they continue to think that government deficit spending is a way to get out of this crisis. This crisis isn't about jobs, it is more about flawed monetary and fiscal policies and a system exacerbated by incompetent executive and legislative branches of government. Freeing markets is how we get out of the problem, but so many people think the current state of Crony capitalism is synonymous with a free market that they will fight this tooth and nail because they have seen the results of Crony Capitalism. Rather they choose to stick with the arcane idea that government spending is how you get out of an economic crisis. More debt will never be the solution, and taking more money out of the private sector won't be either. Government fostering policies that help the private sector to create new wealth is how you get out of it. Freeing markets and opening up true competitive market places without the threat of government intervention so we can compete on a global stage...
More to the tax problem, You all realize that if taxes are raised on the rich they will still take home the same amount if not more...the only difference is that we will have almost everything we buy cost more to accomplish this feat. Do you honestly think they will simply take having their incomes cut lying down? all the while less people will be working. Honestly I think that raising the taxes on the rich, punishes the poor as much as if you raise taxes on them directly.
I know you can appreciate the sentiment Gimmie, but a wise man told me a war on terror is like a war on jealousy ... I would like to think that same thinking extends to a war on Greed, which is what seems to be waging right now...the government cannot eliminate greed, nor should they want to...through greed can come prosperity for more Americans, the governments job should be to focus solely on cultivating the greed and creating the situation where corporations can show an increase in profits through the hiring of American workers...
Enough of this Gordon Gecko stuff--"cultivating the greed." The private sector doesn't care anymore. I am really perplexed about this idea that we simply allow the free market to take over, and that we allow corporations free reign to do as they please. All this with the delusion that this will bring prosperity back to this country. It will bring prosperity back to the few. yes, government needs to work better with corporate America; but, there needs to be balance. The government can create jobs: infrastructure, education, energy (this does work better with private sector cooperation). The best thing about this is that they create jobs in different sectors than corporations and small businesses do. It seems to be in fashion to divide, divide, and divide this country--especially its people--but what would benefit this nation and its citizens is if corp. America/the private sector and the gov't work together.
How do we remedy the problems we are facing? The fact that 42,000 factories have closed in the U.S. in the past 10 years? The fact that in 2008 and 2009 "American" companies were hemorrhaging thousands of jobs a month (and then sending them overseas). The fact that Nike, GE, Dell, and other "American" companies run by American CEOs can no longer be viewed as American companies, but rather multinational or global companies with their base(s) in America, is quite scary to a nation that is so used to be number one in so many areas where they are falling down the rankings at a very scary pace. How do we get jobs back to America when "American" corporations would rather take advantage of slave labor around the globe where they can pay "workers" $10 a week to work in sweatshops, rather than pay an American a decent livable wage? It is about profit, and always will be, and this is a serious, serious problem.
People will say "lower the corporate tax rate." Bull shit. This won't matter; it won't affect their profit margin because they are still able to pay those overseas a pathetic, criminal wage.
Trust me, I'm fine with the idea of a free-market; however, we have seen the reality/culmination of it, and it--in 2011 and into the future--does not benefit the American people.
It all comes down to $$$ and it always has. Quite sad.
Enough of this Gordon Gecko stuff--"cultivating the greed." The private sector doesn't care anymore. I am really perplexed about this idea that we simply allow the free market to take over, and that we allow corporations free reign to do as they please. All this with the delusion that this will bring prosperity back to this country. It will bring prosperity back to the few. yes, government needs to work better with corporate America; but, there needs to be balance. The government can create jobs: infrastructure, education, energy (this does work better with private sector cooperation). The best thing about this is that they create jobs in different sectors than corporations and small businesses do. It seems to be in fashion to divide, divide, and divide this country--especially its people--but what would benefit this nation and its citizens is if corp. America/the private sector and the gov't work together.
How do we remedy the problems we are facing? The fact that 42,000 factories have closed in the U.S. in the past 10 years? The fact that in 2008 and 2009 "American" companies were hemorrhaging thousands of jobs a month (and then sending them overseas). The fact that Nike, GE, Dell, and other "American" companies run by American CEOs can no longer be viewed as American companies, but rather multinational or global companies with their base(s) in America, is quite scary to a nation that is so used to be number one in so many areas where they are falling down the rankings at a very scary pace. How do we get jobs back to America when "American" corporations would rather take advantage of slave labor around the globe where they can pay "workers" $10 a week to work in sweatshops, rather than pay an American a decent livable wage? It is about profit, and always will be, and this is a serious, serious problem.
People will say "lower the corporate tax rate." Bull shit. This won't matter; it won't affect their profit margin because they are still able to pay those overseas a pathetic, criminal wage.
Trust me, I'm fine with the idea of a free-market; however, we have seen the reality/culmination of it, and it--in 2011 and into the future--does not benefit the American people.
It all comes down to $$$ and it always has. Quite sad.
First, When did the private sector care? and yes the government can pay money out to people, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Number one, like I said, inflation affects EVERYONE at that point, the more they borrow to pay for those "jobs", the more we go into debt. So in reality the government could give everyone a billion dollars tomorrow, and the next day you would see a pack of gum jump to 10,000 dollars.
The government can put people to work, it cannot create wealth. It can turn money from one person to another, and it can borrow it to make those payments. Either way it is an unsustainable system. We are seeing that now.
but it seems as though you aren't fine with a free market if you cannot separate what a real free market is from what we have now. Free Market doesn't mean personal/private property rights go away, free market does mean no government protected monopolies, a free market doesn't include wage setting like the fucking Bacon act, subsidizing the cost of goods, everything the government does in terms of no bid contracts... That is the exact misconception I was talking about. What it means is that the government does not regulate competition out of the market, it means that businesses that do shitty business will fail, and not be propped up by the government. You cannot characterize our market as a Free Market. You can characterize it as government protected capitalism...
You say quit with the greed is good stuff, but remind me again where innovation comes from without greed? Why would people improve any existing product without a better life as a motivator...Why invest in an idea like the ipod? How do you force those MNC's to do the "right" thing? You cannot force people to do the right thing, you cannot force businesses to do anything. You can reward them when they do, but if you punish them when they don't will take their ball and go home...Look into what happened when New Jersey raised there taxes...billions left the state and hasn't returned. That is the same thing that would happen here on a national stage.
What the government can do for the market is protect our businesses on an international stage, through strong monetary policy, and protection and proliferation of competition. But to try to do it on the domestic stage, it only lends to crony capitalism...corporate america is so entrenched in our government they can actually donate as a corporation. It isn't even crony capitalism anymore, this is more like nepotistic capitalism. It is disgusting.
We want the same thing, but as I have said before, I feel less government in the markets is better, some feel more is better. I see both sides, just happen to think one would be more successful. I think we can both agree that the current government (not administration specific) is a HUGE part of the problem can we not?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
You're always going to bat for the status quo.
Very simplistic read.
It wouldn't matter how much the 1% had if the gov't would fuel the economy by getting the f out of the way which includes relooking at many of the mandates they have in place (not saying that no regulation is necessary. Just saying that oftentimes regulation adds expense, reduces jobs and hurts the economy for no real gain other than someone's crusade).
And if folks would focus on getting educated and trained on what the CURRENT economy (read: not 20 years' ago economy) needs, they would have jobs. Even the greedy pig capitalists like making money. And if you can help them make it, they're more than happy to give you a job. This concept that the so called 1% has a desire to amass great wealth, but is unwilling to provide jobs to those that can help them make it is cukoo. EDIT: for Cocoa Puffs!
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?
if i were crafting legislation i would make it illegal to rob from the taxpayers' health care fund to pay for anything. i would even propose a constitutional ammendment stating that. i feel that strongly that universal health insurance and access to healthcare for american citizens is an inalienable right.
they say medicare will be insolvent in 2019. we have about 7 years to make the appropriate changes.
Even though your check says you're paying into "Social Security" or "Medicare" or "Health Care," it's ultimately fungible income that goes into the same pot. Health care is not an inalienable right by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the obesity rates in this country vs. the rest of the world; expecting the collective to shoulder that burden when we don't take care of ourselves is insanity.
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I'm hopeful that this logic will slowly become obvious to O.W.S. supporters. Otherwise, they are wasting their time.
What a disgusting response.---this was uncalled for, but I will leave it up to show my mistake for typing in such haste
OWS is not about handouts at all. I don't want and have never received a handout, nor do any of the people I have met. It's about fairness. Do we need to rattle off the statistics of wage stagnation, middle-class decline, factory closures, outsourcing imbalance, CEO and corporate greed and indifference, the poisoning of our rivers and lakes, the murder of 11 men in the gulf of Mexico or 26 men in the coal mines, the profits from war, or should we just continue to tell ourselves that facts don't mean a thing?
You're right. I mis-typed. It's 47% not 49%.
How about me not worrying about what other folks richer than me have and worrying about what I can do for myself? It's the generation of everyone gets a trophy come home to roost. Our parents suck.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/18/news/ec ... m?iid=Lead
***What a disgusting response.---this was uncalled for, but I will leave it up to show my mistake for typing in such haste****
When I read your reply on another thread--though it was a difficult read due to format
But, I disagree that OWS has the attitude of "I want what the other guy has, and I don't want to work to get it" is false. I see it as a movement to change the current state of government and the corporate structure: two things that have not been done in decades. The current status quo is unsustainable. The negative trends in living standards, wages, poverty levels all point to that. The American Dream is becoming just that, a dream. The ladders to the middle class are being torn down. The trends--the facts--make this clear.
I don't think we can discount OWS because of some anti-liberal prejudices--I'm not accusing you of this, but this is what I have seen in most of the criticism.
i have a master's degree and i own a house. i have a very nice newer (2009) imported luxury car and an suv. i have over $25,000 worth of vintage guitars and amps and gear that i have accumlated over the last 10 years. i do ok for myself being a single man in my 30s in a down economy. i have all of the material possessions i could want. i couldn't give a fuck what the rich guy down the street has. i am not jealous of him or anybody else. i am happy with my lot in life and i do not seek a handout nor do i seek a bunch of material possessions and excesses. i have what i need in life and a few things that i don't, but they are things i wanted and i have worked for.
the movement is not about wanting material possessions or wanting to take them away from others. it is something much less tangible than that. i want everyone to have a fair shake and an oppoutunity to live the american dream as i have lived it. i have done it the way it is supposed to be done. but i can not stand by while bankers and wall street fucks over the regular citizens with predatory loans and banking practices and evicting people from their homes because the banks fail to negotiate with people who were given loans that the banks knew that they could not pay for. i can not stand for the wall street investors who manipulate the market for their own gain at the expense of investors. i can not stand by the speculators who drive up the cost of fuel and things like natural gas and heating oil which all of us need. i can not stand by while corporations cut american jobs and move them overseas leaving american workers unable to find work and provide for their family. i will not stand by and wait for the wealth to trickle down as it has been promised for the last 30 years. i will not stand by and listen to the tired bullshit debate that we can not reset tax levels on the rich to the clinton levels because it will hurt the job creators who coincidently have not created jobs in the last several years. i refuse to listen to the tea party who scoffs at this movement and dismisses it because they feel that government and regulation is the problem. i want the government and the system to work FOR people instead of fucking them over. i want health insurance for all people covered universally, and i want every new baby born to be given 2 things at birth. their social security number and their universal insurance number so they will never be saddled with paralyzing medical expenses. i want capitalism to work for the people instead of for the few at the top.
this is not jealousy, it is about right and wrong and it is about social justice. i want a strong middle class and i want the class warfare that has been waged against the poor and middle class to end. i stand in solidarity with the ows protesters and nobody is going to make me change my feelings on that.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
the suv is for hauling all of my band shit to shows and i drive it in the winter when it snows and i need 4 wheel drive. the rest of the time is sits in the driveway collecting pollen.. once i am done with music the suv is the first thing to go.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I understand were your coming from. Being lumped in with the negatives the media reports about the OWS. The same thing happens to me on here when I stand for the Tea Party…..I get called a racist, uneducated, redneck……which I am so far away from that, that it shocked me the first couple of time it happened, so now I realize they just don’t educate themselves about the Tea Party and just repeat what they have been told.
It's too bad, because together they could make a lot more headway than doing it apart. If people weren't so friggin' stubborn about their own agendas they'd see that progress would actually happen if we actually compromised. I'm starting to think that word is something that people in general see as unattainable because the majority are too selfish and unwilling to change. If we truly wanted change, we'd eat our pride and join forces.
It's no one's fault but your own. Unbelievable yet so typical, to blame someone else for how we are rather than taking responsibility... :roll:
It's mostly because no one has any idea what either group stands for. People just impart whatever ideals they want onto either group depending on whatever bias they are going into it with. It's nice to see people blowing off steam, but it won't get productive until you have organization and a clear mission.
For the record, I'm not as well off as you, spent my 401k building a log cabin, lost most of my money to medical bills, can't work so I'm going back to school (racking up more bills) and drive a paid off '98 Taurus. Money does NOT interest me. It does NOT make people happy; it makes people greedy.
But the thing I do have (besides a cozy house) is love and good people called family. This movement is by far not about materials. It's about taking back the power the People once had. People forget that government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We're the puppets, not Obama, and nearly everyone, except those in the protests, blindly accept that.
EXACTLY! We agree!
Why is this so difficult to understand? This isn't a selfish, materialistic movement; it's focus is on making the country stronger. Plain and simple.
I don't see any points in there that will make our country stronger, just life more comfortable. It's not about value judgments on people, but instead economics and math. Things like universal health care coverage are a really wonderful idea, but won't work in practice financially.
and don't tell me that medicare and social security are insolvent, because if our government would stop "borrowing" from it we would have no issues with the funding...
and without a strong middle class to buy things the economy will never improve, so yes, we have to be more comfortable, so all of these changes are absolutely necessary..this will in turn make the country stronger...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Roll back the Bush tax cuts and end the wars today and it would still take us years to get out of debt, much less finance an additional program. Medicare and Social Security are insolvent because it's unsustainable to begin with and even more so when the life expectancy has increased by 30 years since they were instituted. You can't engineer a "strong middle class;" that only arises from a strong free market where large corporations are not operating with a safety net of our cash from their business partners in Washington.
And what gives you confidence that if we socialized health care, that we wouldn't "borrow" from that, too? If you agree that our government has botched two systems, why be willing to give them another?
they say medicare will be insolvent in 2019. we have about 7 years to make the appropriate changes.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
and you CAN engineer a strong middle class by CREATING JOBS, which has not been done by anyone. especially in the private sector...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You're always going to bat for the status quo.
1. Cut everyone's taxes. The highest rate gets cut from 35% to 30% and every other bracket gets at least a 15% reduction (slightly more than the 14.3% reduction the top bracket would get). This would give everyone a little more of their income to save, spend, put towards bills, etc. My hope would be that the middle and lower classes would be able to get by a little easier and the higher income classes would put some of that money back into the economy by purchasing more goods and hiring more contractors, landscapers, etc. for work on their homes. If you're a contractor or landscaper, think about what even one additional good job means to your income.
2. Pass a Balanced Budget Amendment. Put something pants-shittingly scary in there to make Congress balance the budget like a clause that mandates every seat in both houses will be up for election that November if the budget isn't balanced by a certain date.
3. Scale back our troops in Iraq and get them 100% out ASAP. Obviously, it has to be done in a way that doesn't make it increasingly dangerous for the troops who aren't the first to leave and Iraq isn't thrown to the wolves, but the reduction in spending would be a help. This has been going on long enough and the cost is ridiculous.
4. Reduce pretty much every government program and agency by varying degrees depending on their importance. If that means 1-ply toilet paper in every government building (including the White House and Capitol), no more government-supplied coffee/sugar/creamer in governemnt offices, and some programs having to figure out ways to save money on their other crap, then so be it. Meetings over breakfast, lunch, or dinner? Done, unless the person calling the meeting wants to pay for it on his/her own. Also, use video conferencing for any meeting that would otherwise require travel and does not involve classified or otherwise sensitive information (in otherwords, don't make the heads of every regional FBI office fly to DC and stay overnight for a conference in some hotel's meeting room). Make it mandatory that all PCs, lights, etc. are turned off in all government offices at the end of the day and start disciplining people who don't follow this protocol. In the name of public safety, budget cuts cannot be met by reducing staff in critical areas such as FBI/ICE agents (and staff reductions in general should be the absolute last resort used only when a job is unnecessary).
The government cannot simply create jobs without other problems. It can pay private companies to do work for them sure, or hire workers to do the jobs themselves...either way they need to BORROW to accomplish this...Making each and every dollar they will pay the worker worth less, raising the cost of goods for everyone. Inflation is a very serious thing. I don't think people understand the concept very well if they continue to think that government deficit spending is a way to get out of this crisis. This crisis isn't about jobs, it is more about flawed monetary and fiscal policies and a system exacerbated by incompetent executive and legislative branches of government. Freeing markets is how we get out of the problem, but so many people think the current state of Crony capitalism is synonymous with a free market that they will fight this tooth and nail because they have seen the results of Crony Capitalism. Rather they choose to stick with the arcane idea that government spending is how you get out of an economic crisis. More debt will never be the solution, and taking more money out of the private sector won't be either. Government fostering policies that help the private sector to create new wealth is how you get out of it. Freeing markets and opening up true competitive market places without the threat of government intervention so we can compete on a global stage...
More to the tax problem, You all realize that if taxes are raised on the rich they will still take home the same amount if not more...the only difference is that we will have almost everything we buy cost more to accomplish this feat. Do you honestly think they will simply take having their incomes cut lying down? all the while less people will be working. Honestly I think that raising the taxes on the rich, punishes the poor as much as if you raise taxes on them directly.
I know you can appreciate the sentiment Gimmie, but a wise man told me a war on terror is like a war on jealousy
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Enough of this Gordon Gecko stuff--"cultivating the greed." The private sector doesn't care anymore. I am really perplexed about this idea that we simply allow the free market to take over, and that we allow corporations free reign to do as they please. All this with the delusion that this will bring prosperity back to this country. It will bring prosperity back to the few. yes, government needs to work better with corporate America; but, there needs to be balance. The government can create jobs: infrastructure, education, energy (this does work better with private sector cooperation). The best thing about this is that they create jobs in different sectors than corporations and small businesses do. It seems to be in fashion to divide, divide, and divide this country--especially its people--but what would benefit this nation and its citizens is if corp. America/the private sector and the gov't work together.
How do we remedy the problems we are facing? The fact that 42,000 factories have closed in the U.S. in the past 10 years? The fact that in 2008 and 2009 "American" companies were hemorrhaging thousands of jobs a month (and then sending them overseas). The fact that Nike, GE, Dell, and other "American" companies run by American CEOs can no longer be viewed as American companies, but rather multinational or global companies with their base(s) in America, is quite scary to a nation that is so used to be number one in so many areas where they are falling down the rankings at a very scary pace. How do we get jobs back to America when "American" corporations would rather take advantage of slave labor around the globe where they can pay "workers" $10 a week to work in sweatshops, rather than pay an American a decent livable wage? It is about profit, and always will be, and this is a serious, serious problem.
People will say "lower the corporate tax rate." Bull shit. This won't matter; it won't affect their profit margin because they are still able to pay those overseas a pathetic, criminal wage.
Trust me, I'm fine with the idea of a free-market; however, we have seen the reality/culmination of it, and it--in 2011 and into the future--does not benefit the American people.
It all comes down to $$$ and it always has. Quite sad.
First, When did the private sector care? and yes the government can pay money out to people, that isn't necessarily a good thing. Number one, like I said, inflation affects EVERYONE at that point, the more they borrow to pay for those "jobs", the more we go into debt. So in reality the government could give everyone a billion dollars tomorrow, and the next day you would see a pack of gum jump to 10,000 dollars.
The government can put people to work, it cannot create wealth. It can turn money from one person to another, and it can borrow it to make those payments. Either way it is an unsustainable system. We are seeing that now.
but it seems as though you aren't fine with a free market if you cannot separate what a real free market is from what we have now. Free Market doesn't mean personal/private property rights go away, free market does mean no government protected monopolies, a free market doesn't include wage setting like the fucking Bacon act, subsidizing the cost of goods, everything the government does in terms of no bid contracts... That is the exact misconception I was talking about. What it means is that the government does not regulate competition out of the market, it means that businesses that do shitty business will fail, and not be propped up by the government. You cannot characterize our market as a Free Market. You can characterize it as government protected capitalism...
You say quit with the greed is good stuff, but remind me again where innovation comes from without greed? Why would people improve any existing product without a better life as a motivator...Why invest in an idea like the ipod? How do you force those MNC's to do the "right" thing? You cannot force people to do the right thing, you cannot force businesses to do anything. You can reward them when they do, but if you punish them when they don't will take their ball and go home...Look into what happened when New Jersey raised there taxes...billions left the state and hasn't returned. That is the same thing that would happen here on a national stage.
What the government can do for the market is protect our businesses on an international stage, through strong monetary policy, and protection and proliferation of competition. But to try to do it on the domestic stage, it only lends to crony capitalism...corporate america is so entrenched in our government they can actually donate as a corporation. It isn't even crony capitalism anymore, this is more like nepotistic capitalism. It is disgusting.
We want the same thing, but as I have said before, I feel less government in the markets is better, some feel more is better. I see both sides, just happen to think one would be more successful. I think we can both agree that the current government (not administration specific) is a HUGE part of the problem can we not?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Very simplistic read.
It wouldn't matter how much the 1% had if the gov't would fuel the economy by getting the f out of the way which includes relooking at many of the mandates they have in place (not saying that no regulation is necessary. Just saying that oftentimes regulation adds expense, reduces jobs and hurts the economy for no real gain other than someone's crusade).
And if folks would focus on getting educated and trained on what the CURRENT economy (read: not 20 years' ago economy) needs, they would have jobs. Even the greedy pig capitalists like making money. And if you can help them make it, they're more than happy to give you a job. This concept that the so called 1% has a desire to amass great wealth, but is unwilling to provide jobs to those that can help them make it is cukoo. EDIT: for Cocoa Puffs!
Even though your check says you're paying into "Social Security" or "Medicare" or "Health Care," it's ultimately fungible income that goes into the same pot. Health care is not an inalienable right by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the obesity rates in this country vs. the rest of the world; expecting the collective to shoulder that burden when we don't take care of ourselves is insanity.