Reassigning/Adjusting 10 Club Member Numbers

jamburger · January 2011

RedMosquito22 wrote:

jamburger wrote:

RedMosquito22 wrote:

Member numbers were assigned to everyone in 1997. They didn't exist prior.

False. There were assigned member numbers since at least 96 when they toured the US. Where do you come up with these "facts"?

From the 10 club. They didn't use the seniority method in 96.

They didn't use seniority seating until the US in 2000, but that still has nothing to do with when numbers were assigned.

MG79478 · January 2011

PureandEasy wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

I don't think they will ever reassign numbers. What they should do is make your membership cost more every year to keep your seniority, and lower the cost for new members. Think of it like taxes. If you go to school, work hard, and earn a nice living, the government takes more from you. If you've been in the club for longer, you should be older and be able to bear more of a burden than newer members. If you just want to be in the club, buy a new cheap membership every year. If you want amazing seats, pay the increasing fee every year. I'd start at $10 a year, plus club fees, if not more. So if you've been in since the start, you would pay $240 just for this year. Or you could just buy a basic membership for $20 and be at the back of the arena, but at least you would be in the door.

So your idea is to punish those of us who have been around for a while and have supported the band for many years?

Makes no sense to me.

If you go to school and work hard to earn a nice salary, the government takes more money from you. I could live with it if I paid more taxes simply because I make more and we all pay the same percentage. But the more you make the higher percentage you pay. What makes it even worse, the more you pay in taxes, the less benefit you actually receive from the government! Now that is punishment, and it makes no sense to me. But we all live with it, and if you agree with the band's politics, you actually support this!

Buying albums supports the band. You didn't need to join the fanclub to support the band. Whether or not you were old enough to be able to send in $5 to join the fanclub, or you parents gave you $5 to join doesn’t make you a better fan. My parents thought it was a waste of $5, and kudos to them for teaching me financial responsibility. It's not punishment either; you are just paying for what you get in return. In the current system, some get more benefit for the same amount of money. I would back pay 10C for the years I was unable to join with interest if that makes me a better fan and gets me better seats.

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

Member numbers were there for the 1998 tour but they had that stupid block system.

jamburger · January 2011

RedMosquito22 wrote:

Member numbers were there for the 1998 tour but they had that stupid block system.

http://www.twofeetthick.com/2003/04/ten ... t-history/

Two Feet Thick wrote:

1998

With the release of Yield imminent, PJ announced a Hawaii show and an Australian tour on November 11, 1997. The band’s website spread the news that all current fan club members were eligible to buy up to four of the $26+fees tickets to the 2/21/98 Hawaii show if they mailed or emailed the 10C expressing interest. All members who had contacted them by November 28, 1997 (a deadline later extended to January 1, 1998), were sent instructions on where and how to send payment. In early December 1997, Australian and New Zealand fans were mailed a flyer offering them either one or two tickets to the show nearest them only.

The Summer 1998 U.S. tour announcement came the day before Valentine’s Day 1998, and four days later 10C mailed Newsleter #12, which contained the 1998 ticket offer flyer. This time around, folks who were current members as of February 1st could order one or two tickets to one show; no more ordering singles to two different shows. For this first full-scale arena/amphitheater headlining tour ever, PJ had returned to using Ticketmaster, but tickets remained an extremely cheap $23 plus fees ($25.30 – $32.30 total). Fan club members mailed in their money orders and personal checks to be received by March 16, and starting in late April by show date order, got their ticket(s) in the mail. Seat location yet again seemed based on the order in which your payment was received (i.e. the sooner it arrived, the better your seat starting front row just like in ‘95 and ‘96), but 10C didn’t ever officially explain how they did it. The 1998 tour (and the 10C tickets that went along with it) were a real treat, especially after four years of shorter tours.

Toward the end of 1998, fan club mailings and member merchandise orders started arriving not only with the member’s expiration date — which had been included on 10C mailing labels since around 1993 — but with another number: a membership ID number that seemed to have popped out of the blue. It wouldn’t be until 10C ticket procedures for the 2000 tour were announced that we found out that that number signified your seniority in the fan club, i.e. the order in which you joined. For example, if your number was 84324, that meant you were the 84,324th person in the world to join the fan club by 10C’s records, keeping in mind that at any given time, not all of the people with lower numbers (or higher ones for that matter) had continued to pay their dues and keep their membership current. It was a concept that had never been mentioned or even hinted about before, but it was soon very important. More on that later.

Membership numbers appeared on the mailings since late '98 (however, I stand by my '96 comment as we attempted back then to get my '96 number back when I lapsed in '97), but tickets were mailed back first come first serve for the 98 tour. It's a good read, that page is.

PureandEasy · January 2011

MG79478 wrote:

PureandEasy wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

I don't think they will ever reassign numbers. What they should do is make your membership cost more every year to keep your seniority, and lower the cost for new members. Think of it like taxes. If you go to school, work hard, and earn a nice living, the government takes more from you. If you've been in the club for longer, you should be older and be able to bear more of a burden than newer members. If you just want to be in the club, buy a new cheap membership every year. If you want amazing seats, pay the increasing fee every year. I'd start at $10 a year, plus club fees, if not more. So if you've been in since the start, you would pay $240 just for this year. Or you could just buy a basic membership for $20 and be at the back of the arena, but at least you would be in the door.

So your idea is to punish those of us who have been around for a while and have supported the band for many years?

Makes no sense to me.

If you go to school and work hard to earn a nice salary, the government takes more money from you. I could live with it if I paid more taxes simply because I make more and we all pay the same percentage. But the more you make the higher percentage you pay. What makes it even worse, the more you pay in taxes, the less benefit you actually receive from the government! Now that is punishment, and it makes no sense to me. But we all live with it, and if you agree with the band's politics, you actually support this!

Buying albums supports the band. You didn't need to join the fanclub to support the band. Whether or not you were old enough to be able to send in $5 to join the fanclub, or you parents gave you $5 to join doesn’t make you a better fan. My parents thought it was a waste of $5, and kudos to them for teaching me financial responsibility. It's not punishment either; you are just paying for what you get in return. In the current system, some get more benefit for the same amount of money. I would back pay 10C for the years I was unable to join with interest if that makes me a better fan and gets me better seats.

I never said one word about being a better fan just because I'm old enough to have been in the club longer. But I also don't think I should pay more just because I have.

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

^^^^^^ He can't possibly be serious buddy. I wouldn't worry about it.

shortstack · January 2011

i don't see me listed before you and my number is much lower than yours
also, there are members listed 3, 4 and 5 times...so your theory can't be accurate

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

shortstack wrote:

i don't see me listed before you and my number is much lower than yours
also, there are members listed 3, 4 and 5 times...so your theory can't be accurate

I don't have a theory. I have an idea about giving us a better idea where we stand.

PureandEasy · January 2011

shortstack wrote:

i don't see me listed before you and my number is much lower than yours
also, there are members listed 3, 4 and 5 times...so your theory can't be accurate

yeah I don't think there is any relevance to the list either.

I do know several friends who have numbers very close to mine and any time we're at the same shows, we're always within a row or so of each other, so the seniority system works. They definitely put the numbers in order.

My seats have got better over the years too.

There are a lot of factors that go into that, including the popularity of a venue, etc.

As long as I'm still offered tickets before the general public, I'm a happy camper.

MG79478 · January 2011

PureandEasy wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

If you go to school and work hard to earn a nice salary, the government takes more money from you. I could live with it if I paid more taxes simply because I make more and we all pay the same percentage. But the more you make the higher percentage you pay. What makes it even worse, the more you pay in taxes, the less benefit you actually receive from the government! Now that is punishment, and it makes no sense to me. But we all live with it, and if you agree with the band's politics, you actually support this!

Buying albums supports the band. You didn't need to join the fanclub to support the band. Whether or not you were old enough to be able to send in $5 to join the fanclub, or you parents gave you $5 to join doesn’t make you a better fan. My parents thought it was a waste of $5, and kudos to them for teaching me financial responsibility. It's not punishment either; you are just paying for what you get in return. In the current system, some get more benefit for the same amount of money. I would back pay 10C for the years I was unable to join with interest if that makes me a better fan and gets me better seats.

I never said one word about being a better fan just because I'm old enough to have been in the club longer. But I also don't think I should pay more just because I have.

Agreed, you did not say it. But you imply it. Why else should someone who has been in the club longer get better seats? I was also suggesting that a long time member could choose to buy a cheap membership, but lose the good ticket seniority. So you wouldn’t HAVE to pay more, you would CHOOSE to pay more, but receive more. I also suggested that your price could be cheaper, covered by those of us who choose to pay more for better seats.

MG79478 · January 2011

PureandEasy wrote:

My seats have got better over the years too.

There are a lot of factors that go into that, including the popularity of a venue, etc.

It also depends on where you personally think the best seats are. By the 10C definition, my seats have slowly gotten better. By my definition, they have gotten worse. I used to get great seats on the side of the stage, now I'm usually 30 rows back on the floor.

PureandEasy wrote:

As long as I'm still offered tickets before the general public, I'm a happy camper.

So if you don't care about where you sit, just buying tickets before the general public, you should LOVE my idea. You would pay a cheaper membership fee than you currently do, but lose your seniority. You would still get a chance to get tickets before the general public.

Here's another idea, give out points for buying stuff from 10C, let us use these points to upgrade to better seats. How cool would it be to know that if you bought 10 pairs of tickets through 10C, that you could earn an upgrade to front row for your next show? I'd certainly like them to look at my order history and hook me up!

NewJPage · January 2011

so do they send out a monthly update on our number as enrollment changes?

whole thing makes no sense. check the touringfans website to see where you stand.

bazzer · January 2011

MG79478 wrote:

Agreed, you did not say it. But you imply it. Why else should someone who has been in the club longer get better seats? I was also suggesting that a long time member could choose to buy a cheap membership, but lose the good ticket seniority. So you wouldn’t HAVE to pay more, you would CHOOSE to pay more, but receive more. I also suggested that your price could be cheaper, covered by those of us who choose to pay more for better seats.

It' not about being a better fan, it's about rewarding loyalty.

Your idea has some merit, but remember the 10C will want to get the same amount of membership fees regardless of the scheme. As soon as the "value" of seniority is less than the cost of renewing, people will just get a new cheap membership. If the lapse assumption is too light, i.e. the 10C assumes everyone will keep paying $200+ for their seniority but they don't, suddenly everyone is buying $10 memberships and total fees drop.

It would also be extremely unfair for people like myself in foreign countries that don't get toured very often. In the 11 years since PJ came here last in 1998 I would have paid a lot in fees just to keep my seniority. Even if they came to NZ once a year, I'd be paying a $200 premium for each set of tickets.

Also, just because you can't afford to maintain your seniority shouldn't mean you don't get to. Actually, the way it is now could be seen as fairer in that respect.

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

NewJPage wrote:

so do they send out a monthly update on our number as enrollment changes?

whole thing makes no sense. check the touringfans website to see where you stand.

Because touring fans is so reliable. All 50 people out of the 12,000 who post where their seats are unless it's a show in boston, NYC or Philly where 350 out of the 6000 sets of tickets are revealed. We don't even have proof that it's their real member number or not.

NewJPage · January 2011

RedMosquito22 wrote:

NewJPage wrote:

so do they send out a monthly update on our number as enrollment changes?

whole thing makes no sense. check the touringfans website to see where you stand.

Because touring fans is so reliable. All 50 people out of the 12,000 who post where their seats are unless it's a show in boston, NYC or Philly where 350 out of the 6000 sets of tickets are revealed. We don't even have proof that it's their real member number or not.

all you need is someone with a number sorta close to you to get an idea of where you are gonna be. its usually pretty accurate, as far as guestimations go...

PureandEasy · January 2011

MG79478 wrote:

PureandEasy wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

If you go to school and work hard to earn a nice salary, the government takes more money from you. I could live with it if I paid more taxes simply because I make more and we all pay the same percentage. But the more you make the higher percentage you pay. What makes it even worse, the more you pay in taxes, the less benefit you actually receive from the government! Now that is punishment, and it makes no sense to me. But we all live with it, and if you agree with the band's politics, you actually support this!

Buying albums supports the band. You didn't need to join the fanclub to support the band. Whether or not you were old enough to be able to send in $5 to join the fanclub, or you parents gave you $5 to join doesn’t make you a better fan. My parents thought it was a waste of $5, and kudos to them for teaching me financial responsibility. It's not punishment either; you are just paying for what you get in return. In the current system, some get more benefit for the same amount of money. I would back pay 10C for the years I was unable to join with interest if that makes me a better fan and gets me better seats.

I never said one word about being a better fan just because I'm old enough to have been in the club longer. But I also don't think I should pay more just because I have.

Agreed, you did not say it. But you imply it. Why else should someone who has been in the club longer get better seats? I was also suggesting that a long time member could choose to buy a cheap membership, but lose the good ticket seniority. So you wouldn’t HAVE to pay more, you would CHOOSE to pay more, but receive more. I also suggested that your price could be cheaper, covered by those of us who choose to pay more for better seats.

Again, never said it, did not imply it.

And I didn't make the seniority rule, the 10club did.

and just because I didn't make the rule, doesn't mean I don't like it.

and I'm not someone who's getting front row or even second or third - I'm just someone getting very decent seats to every show I go to and that suits me just fine.

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

NewJPage wrote:

RedMosquito22 wrote:

NewJPage wrote:

so do they send out a monthly update on our number as enrollment changes?

whole thing makes no sense. check the touringfans website to see where you stand.

Because touring fans is so reliable. All 50 people out of the 12,000 who post where their seats are unless it's a show in boston, NYC or Philly where 350 out of the 6000 sets of tickets are revealed. We don't even have proof that it's their real member number or not.

all you need is someone with a number sorta close to you to get an idea of where you are gonna be. its usually pretty accurate, as far as guestimations go...

My point is not knowing where I am for a show. I can already figure that out without the number. Row 8-12 rows on a large tour with a lot of dates and around row 15 or the first few rows on the side of the stage for popular shows on small tours like the MSG2 or Philly shows. It's really just to know your true standing.

Will I die if they don't do it? No. I'm just saying it would be cool to actually know where you are in the seniority pecking order.

shortstack · January 2011

RedMosquito22 wrote:

shortstack wrote:

i don't see me listed before you and my number is much lower than yours
also, there are members listed 3, 4 and 5 times...so your theory can't be accurate

I don't have a theory. I have an idea about giving us a better idea where we stand.

fair enough

RedMosquito22 · January 2011

shortstack wrote:

RedMosquito22 wrote:

shortstack wrote:

i don't see me listed before you and my number is much lower than yours
also, there are members listed 3, 4 and 5 times...so your theory can't be accurate

I don't have a theory. I have an idea about giving us a better idea where we stand.

fair enough

Hahahahahaha. Thanks!!

MG79478 · January 2011

bazzer wrote:

It' not about being a better fan, it's about rewarding loyalty.

Your idea has some merit, but remember the 10C will want to get the same amount of membership fees regardless of the scheme. As soon as the "value" of seniority is less than the cost of renewing, people will just get a new cheap membership. If the lapse assumption is too light, i.e. the 10C assumes everyone will keep paying $200+ for their seniority but they don't, suddenly everyone is buying $10 memberships and total fees drop.

It would also be extremely unfair for people like myself in foreign countries that don't get toured very often. In the 11 years since PJ came here last in 1998 I would have paid a lot in fees just to keep my seniority. Even if they came to NZ once a year, I'd be paying a $200 premium for each set of tickets.

Also, just because you can't afford to maintain your seniority shouldn't mean you don't get to. Actually, the way it is now could be seen as fairer in that respect.

How do you define loyalty? Is the person who dubbed every PJ album off of their friends, but sent in $5 to join the fanclub more loyal than someone who bought every album on tape, vinyl , and CD? Just because you’ve been in the 10C a long time doesn’t make you more loyal, it’s really meaningless.

You bring up a good point about those in other countries. I think this would need to be a US based Seniority System. We are talking about fans who buy so much over priced PJ junk, that this would probably be a huge windfall for the 10C.

If you couldn’t afford to maintain your seniority, you could still go to the show with fanclub seats, just not great fanclub seats. And seriously, if you have been in the fanclub 15 years, and can’t afford to pay the increased dues (for better seats), you shouldn’t be wasting your money on it anyway. If you have to choose between food for your kids or fanclub dues, you shouldn’t even be considering fanclub dues. Maybe it would motivate someone who can’t afford the dues to better their situation, so that they can afford it. Even if the “cheaper” option was the current price, that’s a good deal. You might be able to lower it by $5 or $10 due to the high paying members. I just think people should get what they pay for.

PureandEasy wrote:

Again, never said it, did not imply it.

You surely did, and I guess you don't realize it. Explain why long term 10C members should get better seats then? They are not more loyal, they are just more lucky. They are beneficiaries of circumstance. They get more than others, for the same price.

Reassigning/Adjusting 10 Club Member Numbers

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