71% Mo. voters reject key provision of health care law

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Comments

  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    redrock wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    I guess some governments/countries take better care of their people than others.
    i would like to live in a country that has national health care at some point in my life. but since i would not be a citizen of tha country when i arrive i might be eligible for coverage.
    .
    In the UK any resident is entitled to free health care. You need to be here legally and show you are 'settled' (ie studying, working, etc.). If you can demonstrate that, there is no minimum 'waiting' period. This is for 'normal' healthcare. Naturally emergencies, walk-ins at A&E etc. are open to everyone (family planning too!). EU residents are entitled to NHS care as well with no strings attached. This is obviously very broad but it gives you the gist of things.

    Naturally, the NHS is FAR from perfect but it's 100 times better than what is on offer (or rather not on offer) in the US.


    There is no such thing as free health care anywhere in the world. You may think it is free, or maybe they tell you it is free, but somehow, you pay for it.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Do me a favor and post some data backing up what you claim (how everyone is lazy and living off the government and more importantly, how healthcare is affortable -which is laughable). We'll all be here waiting, but I doubt you'll post anything legitimate if at all.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Please show me where i used the term "mass" And it is not a overstated generalization when the rates of welfare & foodstamps continue to rise. People are using these programs as means to live...
    No most of you are trying to argue that health care is a right, and now that i have proven you wrong on several accounts, you are now reverting back being defensive since you have nothing left to say.
    What makes you think giving these things to people and not having them earn it is better for society. Once you quit rewarding laziness in the form of gov checks, then you will see a better society. You should provide for your family the basic needs. If everyone is entitled to basic needs then why do i have to buy my own food, why don't i get food stamps??? I work but i don't want to spend my money on food that should be provided to me RIGHT??? I don't think everyone is lazy, but I do think that people lack personal responsibilities, and what my wife experiences in an inner city school (issues with parents care) and where we live, I am most certinly allowed to voice my opinion on mine and my wifes experiences and it is that people that recieve the gov check are lazy and feel entitled to it. And now you want to throw in health care??? I don't know anybody that has ever complained to me that their health care is not affordable, so quit making mass generalizaionts that people can't pay for their own health care.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Do you consider the millions of Americans on Unemployment as a result of one of the worse economic recessions in recent memory, lazy? Just curious what constitutes your broad generalization.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    There is also plenty of evidence laziness.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    why don't you stop derailing the thread and just come on out and say what you feel. you are against the health care reform because you feel it is taking money away from you. why not just state you agree with the 71% of the 23% of missouri voters that voted as a referendum against obama instead of allowing assistance for the uninsured? why not just admit you are only thinking of yourself and spare us the arguments and debates about "rites" and unalienable "rights"?

    and you talk of "providing health care for themselves"....which is impossible...health care is provided by the providers, as in medical health professionals ie MDs, DOs, nurses, emts, physical therapists, mental health professionals, etc. i guarantee you are not "providing health care" to yourself or your family members. you are simply paying for the insurance company to pay your health care providers for providing a service to you and nothing more.
    Quit being such a cry baby. No I am thinking towards the future... THe sooner we get ride of entitlement programs and have people work for their own goods and services then society will only get better. How an i being selfish when my paychecks support these people. And i am pretty sure I donate much more time and money then you will ever obtain in your life to charitys. Just because i don't think healthcare is a right makes me a selfish person.??? Quit getting all emotional about this and just recognize that i have a different opinion than you do. I have yet to make a personal attack on any of you or your comments yet you guys are making personal attacks towards me and my comments. ANd No i did not talk about providing health care for themselves, please take a look back and highligh if you will where i said that. No i am not providing health care, but there would not be any health care if people like my self didn't pay for it THEMSELVES. I will state that I don't think health care is a right. And i think i have provided pleanty of reasons why. And i never said that i support the current system either. You have yet to ask me how I would like the system to be. You just assume that because I am arguing weather it is a right, i must be for the current system.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,066
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Do you consider the millions of Americans on Unemployment as a result of one of the worse economic recessions in recent memory, lazy? Just curious what constitutes your broad generalization.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    There is also plenty of evidence laziness.
    yes heidijam, where are the JOBS in this economic climate????

    or are those that got downsized just being lazy as well?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Do me a favor and post some data backing up what you claim (how everyone is lazy and living off the government and more importantly, how healthcare is affortable -which is laughable). We'll all be here waiting, but I doubt you'll post anything legitimate if at all.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Please show me where i used the term "mass" And it is not a overstated generalization when the rates of welfare & foodstamps continue to rise. People are using these programs as means to live...
    No most of you are trying to argue that health care is a right, and now that i have proven you wrong on several accounts, you are now reverting back being defensive since you have nothing left to say.
    What makes you think giving these things to people and not having them earn it is better for society. Once you quit rewarding laziness in the form of gov checks, then you will see a better society. You should provide for your family the basic needs. If everyone is entitled to basic needs then why do i have to buy my own food, why don't i get food stamps??? I work but i don't want to spend my money on food that should be provided to me RIGHT??? I don't think everyone is lazy, but I do think that people lack personal responsibilities, and what my wife experiences in an inner city school (issues with parents care) and where we live, I am most certinly allowed to voice my opinion on mine and my wifes experiences and it is that people that recieve the gov check are lazy and feel entitled to it. And now you want to throw in health care??? I don't know anybody that has ever complained to me that their health care is not affordable, so quit making mass generalizaionts that people can't pay for their own health care.
    WHy don't you address the post. AND what is the continual rise in welfare and food stamps. That must equate hard work and back luck huh???
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,066
    HeidiJam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    why don't you stop derailing the thread and just come on out and say what you feel. you are against the health care reform because you feel it is taking money away from you. why not just state you agree with the 71% of the 23% of missouri voters that voted as a referendum against obama instead of allowing assistance for the uninsured? why not just admit you are only thinking of yourself and spare us the arguments and debates about "rites" and unalienable "rights"?

    and you talk of "providing health care for themselves"....which is impossible...health care is provided by the providers, as in medical health professionals ie MDs, DOs, nurses, emts, physical therapists, mental health professionals, etc. i guarantee you are not "providing health care" to yourself or your family members. you are simply paying for the insurance company to pay your health care providers for providing a service to you and nothing more.
    Quit being such a cry baby. No I am thinking towards the future... THe sooner we get ride of entitlement programs and have people work for their own goods and services then society will only get better. How an i being selfish when my paychecks support these people. And i am pretty sure I donate much more time and money then you will ever obtain in your life to charitys. Just because i don't think healthcare is a right makes me a selfish person.??? Quit getting all emotional about this and just recognize that i have a different opinion than you do. I have yet to make a personal attack on any of you or your comments yet you guys are making personal attacks towards me and my comments. ANd No i did not talk about providing health care for themselves, please take a look back and highligh if you will where i said that. No i am not providing health care, but there would not be any health care if people like my self didn't pay for it THEMSELVES. I will state that I don't think health care is a right. And i think i have provided pleanty of reasons why. And i never said that i support the current system either. You have yet to ask me how I would like the system to be. You just assume that because I am arguing weather it is a right, i must be for the current system.

    cry baby? that is hilarious. tell me another one... :roll: now you are calling for ending all entitlement programs? you are being selfish in the fact that you are claiming that massive amounts of money from your check are going to pay for "those people"...will you define "those people" by the way? anyway, we live in a society and as a member of that society you must pay taxes for things and providing foodstamps is one of those things your taxes pay for. i didn't want to pay for these 2 damn wars, but guess what, i am paying my taxes and not bitching about where the money is going. it sounds to me that you are the one being the crybaby complaining about that small percentage of your check going ot help others.. what is your tax bracket? you should have gotten a tax CUT this year unless you are in the top 5% of the population income wise....and by the way, tell me about your charitable contributions. my band, my side job, donated over $15,000 of our income from 5 shows and collected another $8000 in donations for hurricane relief in the gulf in the month of august of 2005. i am not patting myself on the back, but i am just willing to bet that you have never done anything like that.

    so let me get this straight. you pay for your healthcare yourself? you do not have health insurance and you pay cash for all of your meds and doctor's office visits? because that is what you are leading all of us to believe here. and i will find where you said you are providing care yourself. it is in at least 2 posts this week.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i would like to live in a country that has national health care at some point in my life. but since i would not be a citizen of tha country when i arrive i might be eligible for coverage.
    .
    In the UK any resident is entitled to free health care. You need to be here legally and show you are 'settled' (ie studying, working, etc.). If you can demonstrate that, there is no minimum 'waiting' period. This is for 'normal' healthcare. Naturally emergencies, walk-ins at A&E etc. are open to everyone (family planning too!). EU residents are entitled to NHS care as well with no strings attached. This is obviously very broad but it gives you the gist of things.

    Naturally, the NHS is FAR from perfect but it's 100 times better than what is on offer (or rather not on offer) in the US.


    There is no such thing as free health care anywhere in the world. You may think it is free, or maybe they tell you it is free, but somehow, you pay for it.

    As mentioned numerous times in numerous threads (and in this one too), one pays for this via taxes, obviously. When I say 'free', I mean you go to the doctor, you don't hand cash, you go to the hospital, you don't have to have your credit card swiped before anyone even looks at you. If you have a sick child, you don't have to worry whether your insurance will pay (assuming you are able to afford one). You can get yourself treated for anything, even an 'event' due to a pre-condition (which most insurances will not pay for) without have to worry about it. No co-payment, etc. Just walk in, get treated, walk out.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Simply because you don't like my answers (which I have mentioned lots in this thread) doesn't mean I'm not addressing your comments. And you love to keep mentioning the rise of these things but completely ignore the important question of why they are on it. It's got very little to do with laziness, and everything to do with our system. The only thing lazy is your opinion on the topic which makes it a very black and white (pun intended) skewed discussion of the reality of these matters. It's a lot easier to say people are lazy than to address why everyone is getting the shaft in our society.

    And apparently you don't like to give data so here's some regarding health care in our nation as you aren't familiar with it by your comments.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States


    HeidiJam wrote:
    WHy don't you address the post. AND what is the continual rise in welfare and food stamps. That must equate hard work and back luck huh???
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i didn't want to pay for these 2 damn wars, but guess what, i am paying my taxes and not bitching about where the money is going.


    Let's not get crazy here ;)


    I'm not sure that I would agree that Health Care is a right. That seems a bit odd. I mean, what gives anyone the right to deserve Health Care? I find very few things to be rights that must be granted.

    That said, I think the Health Care debate is more about human decency. It is one area where a hard working individual can even have Health Insurance and end up bankrupt and without proper care. How is that possible? Lots of non-lazy people end up with catastrophic illnesses that lead them to a terrible place. Additionally, there are a lot of people out there that are looking for work...very hard...trying to find something. They shouldn't have to worry about health care.

    Now, what do you do about the habitual welfare recipients and the generations of welfare recipients that they create? Do they get health care simply because they are alive? I don't think so, but you have to figure out a way for them to be part of the system if they meet certain criteria...just like getting unemployment.

    I guess there needs to be a way for everyone to have reasonable access to health care...and if they don't do enough to meet the criteria, that's on them.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Do you consider the millions of Americans on Unemployment as a result of one of the worse economic recessions in recent memory, lazy? Just curious what constitutes your broad generalization.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    There is also plenty of evidence laziness.
    No I don't. But i think if we continue to exten benefits it will MAKE some people lazy.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Simply because you don't like my answers (which I have mentioned lots in this thread) doesn't mean I'm not addressing your comments. And you love to keep mentioning the rise of these things but completely ignore the important question of why they are on it. It's got very little to do with laziness, and everything to do with our system. The only thing lazy is your opinion on the topic which makes it a very black and white (pun intended) skewed discussion of the reality of these matters. It's a lot easier to say people are lazy than to address why everyone is getting the shaft in our society.

    And apparently you don't like to give data so here's some regarding health care in our nation as you aren't familiar with it by your comments.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States
    Yeah your right, Its not the peoples fault there on welfare, its someone elses fault......... I've heard that one before.
    I never said i didn't like your answers, You were trying to argue that Health care is a right. And its not. The the reason of the rise of welfare and food stamps is because it is now an accepted life style. ANd people like you are advocating the lifestyle.
    And please explain why my opinion is lazy, i have answered all your your questions and you have skipped over several posts of mine and completely ignored my last two posts on health care being a right that proved you wrong. Your right, maybe i should be like you guys and blame everybody else and the systems. No one can afford this and no one can afford that. Its everybodys fault. Everything should be a human right because life isn't fair and you never know when something unexpected is going to happen. Thats what your posts read like.
  • heidihi
    heidihi Posts: 114
    I think perhaps living in Australia where we do pay for healthcare in our tax system has twisted my stance on this issue but I cannot comprehend people not wanting people to receive heathcare. We receive unempolyment and lower to middle income families even receive family payment to help with keeping families afloat. My husband and I both work and are happy to pay our share and know that we will be able to sleep at night if the unfortunate happens to one of us or our children. Perhaps as another poster said you have to live in a country with national healthcare to undersatnd how comforting it is..... a friend of mine has had cardiomyopathy??? (I do not know how to spell it???). He has had untold amounts of medical traeatment for the last 20 (he is only 40 now) years, culminating in a heart transplant last year and it has not cost any money. Had he not had healthcare he and his very supportive family would have lost everything in their bid to keep him alive...... Due to his health he can not work full time he did not choose this and he did not cause it. So without a supportive system he would eventually have no income (and hence food and shelter) no matter what. I think it is far more important to value life over money. I am happy to pay the extra tax for those less fortunate then myself..... I am shocked that there are people that think others should die over affordability because my friend would have died.

    Just my two cents ;) and a ponit of view from another system.
    “The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Once again, provide details.. still waiting on facts. Go ahead and show through data your right. I and others have stated tons of details on why you are incorrect, but you just harp on phrases, not data. Just cause you believe something doesn't make it true... but facts are truth...so go ahead.. prove us wrong.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I never said i didn't like your answers, You were trying to argue that Health care is a right. And its not. The the reason of the rise of welfare and food stamps is because it is now an accepted life style. ANd people like you are advocating the lifestyle.
    And please explain why my opinion is lazy, i have answered all your your questions and you have skipped over several posts of mine and completely ignored my last two posts on health care being a right that proved you wrong. Your right, maybe i should be like you guys and blame everybody else and the systems. No one can afford this and no one can afford that. Its everybodys fault. Everything should be a human right because life isn't fair and you never know when something unexpected is going to happen. Thats what your posts read like.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    Concerning unemployment benefits and welfare, you're both right. People are on it because they lost/can't get a job and because they are lazy (and yes, the program can make people lazy).

    Like everything, there is no easy solution other than strict regulation. But, our government has been so financially incompetent - which, in turn, has affected the individual states - they likely are unable to pay for the reorganization of an existing department or the creation of a new one.

    Just my 2 pennies.
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    can i just say, having been on a type of welfare in the past, that it is ridiculously insufficient.



    the only thing i wanted to do was get out and get a job and see some decent paychecks. it motivated me to get a job, not to be complacent.

    its a buffer. a way for people not to starve to death when greedy capitalists decide to send their jobs overseas or hire an illegal.


    what's even more fucked.....we have the resources in this country to employ everyone, pay them a living wage, and give them healthcare. there is more than plenty for all, especially here, in the center of empire. were profit not guiding policy (and public consent, trhough media) we could be living in a very
    (what would seem to be) idealist state. we could provide for everyone and then some, were the fat cats not so greedy. think about wallmart, how they have more money than saudi arabia, or any number of companies.....all of this wealth is going to the top...the idea that we are in trouble is a scam. they are in trouble, they might not get that 5th house in the hamptons with that 1000 foot pool, that't the real crises.


    and if people were to find out just how much they are being taken advantage of, that's the real crises of democracy.






    wake up.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    HeidiJam wrote:
    You were trying to argue that Health care is a right. And its not. ......And please explain why my opinion is lazy, i have answered all your your questions and you have skipped over several posts of mine and completely ignored my last two posts on health care being a right that proved you wrong. .

    I would say that most of us have been arguing that healthcare is a Human Right (as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), not a right. This is the difference that you do not seem to understand.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ....completely ignored my last two posts... Everything should be a human right because life isn't fair and you never know when something unexpected is going to happen.
    Maybe this type of comment is made to be ignored? Flippancy usually doesn't require response.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    heidihi wrote:
    Had he not had healthcare he and his very supportive family would have lost everything in their bid to keep him alive...... Due to his health he can not work full time he did not choose this and he did not cause it. So without a supportive system he would eventually have no income (and hence food and shelter) no matter what. .

    I would hate to think what would have happened to him and his family in the USA. Cardiomyopathy is largely herediatry, therefore considered as a pre-existing condition (even if you didn't know) and insurances will weasel their way out of paying for those.

    heidihi wrote:
    I think it is far more important to value life over money. I am happy to pay the extra tax for those less fortunate then myself..... I am shocked that there are people that think others should die over affordability because my friend would have died. .

    I so agree with you there. If I were living in the US and did not have the system we have in place here, I would be without a husband and my daughter without a father. Or maybe he would still be alive but a vegetable or with no quality of life.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    redrock wrote:
    Our personal responsibilities include social responsibilities.

    :clap::clap::clap::clap:

    I think I want to put that in my signature.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    HeidiJam:

    Why do you keep insisting that healthcare is affordable despite the evidence that virtually no one in the United States can necessarily afford it? And please back up your response with cited data.

    Why do you support a system (private health insurance) where some people pay more than their share and others take more than their share, but reject a such a system only when it would mean coverage for everyone (public health insurance)? How can you reject this system and support the unemployment system?

    We are fortunate and proud to live in a nation that has the ability to care for the health of our ENTIRE population. As a rich and proud nation, why on earth would we not choose to care for our own people?

    Why do you value your money over the health of others?

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