Exactly, apparently Hedijam hasn't read the facts about how many people are forced to declare bankruptcy each year as a result of medical costs or sell their homes or spend their retirement funds. And forget about the simple fact that there's no jobs in our nation and the middle class is shrinking.. but yes it's the land of economic mobility where the rich can get richer and the poor can get poorer. That's the vast majority of our system at work, and it has zero to do with how hard you work, the opportunities you can try and make available, or how many alleged people are living off the governments expense.
So only the opportune deserve health care?
And no, not everyone has the same opportunities. Just because you come from the land of opportunity doesn't mean its the same across the board.
Its awesome some people can overcome obstacles and yes people are given opportunities but the REALITY is not everyone can be a rags to riches story
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Yeah this discussion is going no where because wherever you turn there's someone complaining that milkshakes and scented candles are not a right so neither should be health.
Food, Shelter, healthcare - If you can't afford those then you need to cut back on whatever you are spending your money on. These are all affordable.
Have you ever actually paid 100% out-of-pocket for healthcare for your entire family for any considerable length of time?
I think it's hysterical that you keep saying everyone else should be more prepared, but when we point out that you're not really prepared you say, "Well you can't be prepared for everything!" :roll:
Yes I have... 6 months. Whats your definition of considerable?
I was refering to personal responsibilities such as bills, needs, etc. Yes you should be prepared for things of that nature. But no you can not be prepared for freak accidents (natural, Health issues with no coverage)
I think its hysterical that you can't differentiate between the two...
Injury, illness, & poor health are not freak accidents - they happen to nearly everyone at some point or another.
last time - And please answer these -
Why is shelter not a rite?
Are you not given opportunities (education, food, welfare, etc.) in life to succeed? If you are given all those, should it not be your responsibilitiy to either use these opportunities to succeed in life or not?
We are all given those opportunities, some will have to work harder than others but thats life, were not all born in great situations.
Why if you are given all these opportunities how can you not afford health care?
I think some people dispute your repeated claim that everyone has the same opportunities. Your claim that healthcare is affordable is also in dispute (in fact you may be the only person I've ever known to make such a claim).
Are you not given opportunities (education, food, welfare, etc.) in life to succeed? If you are given all those, should it not be your responsibilitiy to either use these opportunities to succeed in life or not?
Not all are given equal opportunities. And even if you are born in a family which offers these opportunities at more than a basic level, you may not be able to use these at your best advantage (through no fault of your own, ie laziness..). Even if you have succeeded, you can fall just as quickly. Also, what is to 'succeed in life'? Has a short order cook or a janitor 'succeeded in life' as much as the CEO of a large firm or a lawyer or doctor? From my point of view they have (ie they have a job, etc.). Can those who have 'succeeded' but are at the lower echelon afford the healthcare a CEO can? Nope. And before one says that the janitor can aim higher and it's his/her own fault for being in a menial jobs, remember - someone has to do them. And maybe that's where the 'given opportunities' were not so equal.
Example about healthcare.... I have a specialist hospital appointment today. A growth was discovered (no charge to see your doctor, anytime). Got my appointment within two weeks of initial discovery. Today, I will be having scans, tests and will be seeing a specialist consultant who will decide the course of action. I will walk in, let the professionals do what they need to do and walk out (and eventually continue with treatment). I will not pay a penny, have to sort stuff out with insurance companies waiting for them to decide whether they will pay out this time or not. Any health issue is already stressful, at least I don't have the financial/insurance side of things to add to this stress. Wondering how it would be if I lived in the US....
Are you not given opportunities (education, food, welfare, etc.) in life to succeed? If you are given all those, should it not be your responsibilitiy to either use these opportunities to succeed in life or not?
Not all are given equal opportunities. And even if you are born in a family which offers these opportunities at more than a basic level, you may not be able to use these at your best advantage (through no fault of your own, ie laziness..). Even if you have succeeded, you can fall just as quickly. Also, what is to 'succeed in life'? Has a short order cook or a janitor 'succeeded in life' as much as the CEO of a large firm or a lawyer or doctor? From my point of view they have (ie they have a job, etc.). Can those who have 'succeeded' but are at the lower echelon afford the healthcare a CEO can? Nope. And before one says that the janitor can aim higher and it's his/her own fault for being in a menial jobs, remember - someone has to do them. And maybe that's where the 'given opportunities' were not so equal.
Example about healthcare.... I have a specialist hospital appointment today. A growth was discovered. Got my appointment within two weeks of initial discovery. Today, I will be having scans, tests and will be seeing a specialist consultant who will decide the course of action. I will walk in, let the professionals do what they need to do and walk out (and eventually continue with treatment). I will not pay a penny, have to sort stuff out with insurance companies waiting for them to decide whether they will pay out this time or not. Any health issue is already stressful, at least I don't have the financial/insurance side of things to add to this stress. Wondering how it would be if I lived in the US....
If you lived here you wouldn't even have been seen yet.
Nobody wants Social Security until they're old and need the money
Nobody wants Medicare until they are old and realize they can't afford private ins. on their tight budget
Nobody wants unemployment until they get fu#$ed over by their faceless, corporate boss
Nobody wants a tax increase in order to fund a new firehouse until their home is burning to the ground
Bottom line: We are all in it for ourselves and anytime you ask one of us to put the whole before ourselves, we scream socialism or whatever keyword is being thrown around at the time. Me,me, me, me, me.....I'm tired.
Are you not given opportunities (education, food, welfare, etc.) in life to succeed? If you are given all those, should it not be your responsibilitiy to either use these opportunities to succeed in life or not?
Not all are given equal opportunities. And even if you are born in a family which offers these opportunities at more than a basic level, you may not be able to use these at your best advantage (through no fault of your own, ie laziness..). Even if you have succeeded, you can fall just as quickly. Also, what is to 'succeed in life'? Has a short order cook or a janitor 'succeeded in life' as much as the CEO of a large firm or a lawyer or doctor? From my point of view they have (ie they have a job, etc.). Can those who have 'succeeded' but are at the lower echelon afford the healthcare a CEO can? Nope. And before one says that the janitor can aim higher and it's his/her own fault for being in a menial jobs, remember - someone has to do them. And maybe that's where the 'given opportunities' were not so equal.
Example about healthcare.... I have a specialist hospital appointment today. A growth was discovered. Got my appointment within two weeks of initial discovery. Today, I will be having scans, tests and will be seeing a specialist consultant who will decide the course of action. I will walk in, let the professionals do what they need to do and walk out (and eventually continue with treatment). I will not pay a penny, have to sort stuff out with insurance companies waiting for them to decide whether they will pay out this time or not. Any health issue is already stressful, at least I don't have the financial/insurance side of things to add to this stress. Wondering how it would be if I lived in the US....
If you lived here you wouldn't even have been seen yet.
Hope all goes well with your appointment!
Thanks.
There's all kinds of talks about 'waiting times' but I came across this:
"In a 2009 survey of physician appointment wait times in the United States..... Nationwide across the U.S. the average wait time to see a family doctor was 20 days. The average wait time to see a family practioner in Los Angeles, California was 59 days and in Boston, Massachusetts it was 63 days.[56]"
I get to see my doctor within a couple of days. It can be a day or two longer wait if it is during very busy periods.
Nobody wants Social Security until they're old and need the money
Nobody wants Medicare until they are old and realize they can't afford private ins. on their tight budget
Nobody wants unemployment until they get fu#$ed over by their faceless, corporate boss
Nobody wants a tax increase in order to fund a new firehouse until their home is burning to the ground
Bottom line: We are all in it for ourselves and anytime you ask one of us to put the whole before ourselves, we scream socialism or whatever keyword is being thrown around at the time. Me,me, me, me, me.....I'm tired.
Oh so true. Though they throw the word 'socialism' around a lot, I don't think most americans even know what socialism is!
Nobody wants Social Security until they're old and need the money
Nobody wants Medicare until they are old and realize they can't afford private ins. on their tight budget
Nobody wants unemployment until they get fu#$ed over by their faceless, corporate boss
Nobody wants a tax increase in order to fund a new firehouse until their home is burning to the ground
Bottom line: We are all in it for ourselves and anytime you ask one of us to put the whole before ourselves, we scream socialism or whatever keyword is being thrown around at the time. Me,me, me, me, me.....I'm tired.
Oh so true. Though they throw the word 'socialism' around a lot, I don't think most americans even know what socialism is!
My favourite was when someone on this board cried socialism when rural areas in their neighbourhood were being eaten up by condominiums being built by private corporations. What was so socialist about it? The fact that they acquired that land by knowing people in the right places... :shock:
Nobody wants Social Security until they're old and need the money
Nobody wants Medicare until they are old and realize they can't afford private ins. on their tight budget
Nobody wants unemployment until they get fu#$ed over by their faceless, corporate boss
Nobody wants a tax increase in order to fund a new firehouse until their home is burning to the ground
Bottom line: We are all in it for ourselves and anytime you ask one of us to put the whole before ourselves, we scream socialism or whatever keyword is being thrown around at the time. Me,me, me, me, me.....I'm tired.
very well stated. i find it ironic that a lot of people fail to see a need for these things until they are put into a different situation, then they see the problems with the things that are in place. unfortunately we are a very selfish culture....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
very well stated. i find it ironic that a lot of people fail to see a need for these things until they are put into a different situation, then they see the problems with the things that are in place. unfortunately we are a very selfish culture....
So what your saying is because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights. What about Air Conditioning/ Air Respirators to the people of Russia. 700 people a day are dying and you don't even care. Some people don't have the means to pay for an A/C unit and don't the the extra money to pay on an increased electric bill. Some people are just so selfish and don't care about people from other countries.
The fact that you're trying to correlate "air conditioning" or paying for a luxury item with health-care in general for society is pretty much a statement on what's wrong with our society.
So what your saying is because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights. What about Air Conditioning/ Air Respirators to the people of Russia. 700 people a day are dying and you don't even care. Some people don't have the means to pay for an A/C unit and don't the the extra money to pay on an increased electric bill. Some people are just so selfish and don't care about people from other countries.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
very well stated. i find it ironic that a lot of people fail to see a need for these things until they are put into a different situation, then they see the problems with the things that are in place. unfortunately we are a very selfish culture....
So what your saying is because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights. What about Air Conditioning/ Air Respirators to the people of Russia. 700 people a day are dying and you don't even care. Some people don't have the means to pay for an A/C unit and don't the the extra money to pay on an increased electric bill. Some people are just so selfish and don't care about people from other countries.
dude honestly, wtf are you talking about? where did i EVER say these words "because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights"??????????? i have said HEALTH CARE IS A HUMAN RIGHT, NOT HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES...it is YOU putting those words into my mouth, and the mouths of several posters on here and it is getting very old very fast.
and apparently you have not read my posts earlier in the thread where i commented on the 700 russiansa day passing away due to the heat and fires and bad air. and you must not have read the thread about the guy dying in the sauna, so for you to say i have said such things and do not care about people in other countries is simply a lie.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
So what your saying is because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights. .
Maybe this will help you understand what one means about basic human rights:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
About being part of a 'collective' and looking after each other (and not being utterly selfish):
Article 1.
* All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
About rights to a quality of life, social care and health care:
Article 25.
* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Naturally, these are only 2 articles out of 30. Should you read the complete declaration, it may enlighten you and help you understand what people are talking about instead of mentioning A/C yet again.
very well stated. i find it ironic that a lot of people fail to see a need for these things until they are put into a different situation, then they see the problems with the things that are in place. unfortunately we are a very selfish culture....
So what your saying is because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights. What about Air Conditioning/ Air Respirators to the people of Russia. 700 people a day are dying and you don't even care. Some people don't have the means to pay for an A/C unit and don't the the extra money to pay on an increased electric bill. Some people are just so selfish and don't care about people from other countries.
dude honestly, wtf are you talking about? where did i EVER say these words "because life is hard, we should minimize all suffering by giving goods and services as human rights"??????????? i have said HEALTH CARE IS A HUMAN RIGHT, NOT HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES...it is YOU putting those words into my mouth, and the mouths of several posters on here and it is getting very old very fast.
and apparently you have not read my posts earlier in the thread where i commented on the 700 russiansa day passing away due to the heat and fires and bad air. and you must not have read the thread about the guy dying in the sauna, so for you to say i have said such things and do not care about people in other countries is simply a lie.
The arguments are getting more and more funny!
Since when does arguing about healthcare equal not caring about other countries?
I don't live in your country and am arguing for better health care so argument dismissed on my end
And there are people who vote against a proposition that could help with this? The US boasts being the most advanced and industrialised country in the world, yet this is how they perform compared to their western peers? Obviously the system is not working.
ScienceDaily:
US Ranks Last Among 7 Countries on Health System Performance, New Report Says
ScienceDaily (June 23, 2010) — Despite having the most expensive health care system, the United States ranks last overall compared to six other industrialized countries -- Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom -- on measures of health system performance in five areas: quality, efficiency, access to care, equity and the ability to lead long, healthy, productive lives, according to a new Commonwealth Fund report.
# On measures of access to care, people in the U.S. have the hardest time affording the health care they need -- with the U.S. ranking last on every measure of cost-related access problems. For example, 54 percent of adults with chronic conditions reported problems getting a recommended test, treatment or follow-up care because of cost. In the Netherlands, which ranked first on this measure, only 7 percent of adults with chronic conditions reported this problem.
# On measures of healthy lives, the U.S. does poorly, ranking last when it comes to infant mortality and deaths before age 75 that were potentially preventable with timely access to effective health care, and second to last on healthy life expectancy at age 60.
Since when does need give someone a right??? Fifty years ago people whose kidneys were failing needed dialysis every bit as much as they do today, but there were no dialysis machines. Did they have a right to protection against kidney failure??? Was Mother Nature violating their rights by making their kidneys fail without a remedy? It makes no sense to say that need itself confers a right unless someone else has the ability to meet that need. So any "right" to medical care imposes on someone the obligation to provide care to those who cannot provide it for themselves. Again I ask, why can't people provide for themselves. Are we all not given education, jobs,food, houseing???
Do any of you even know the definition of a right, ok well ill post it since you guys don't know.
A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something you possess free and clear, something you can exercise without asking anyone else's permission.
Since when does need give someone a right??? Fifty years ago people whose kidneys were failing needed dialysis every bit as much as they do today, but there were no dialysis machines. Did they have a right to protection against kidney failure??? Was Mother Nature violating their rights by making their kidneys fail without a remedy? It makes no sense to say that need itself confers a right unless someone else has the ability to meet that need. So any "right" to medical care imposes on someone the obligation to provide care to those who cannot provide it for themselves. Again I ask, why can't people provide for themselves. Are we all not given education, jobs,food, houseing???
Do any of you even know the definition of a right, ok well ill post it since you guys don't know.
A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something you possess free and clear, something you can exercise without asking anyone else's permission.
Your arguments are getting more and more flippant. No one said need gives someone a 'right'. You keep on throwing that up. But, while we're with definitions, here are a couple of others for 'right' (yep... googled online dictionary - not my words):
"an abstract idea of that which is due to a person or governmental body by law or tradition or nature; "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
"a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral:"
All of you, since i am the only one arguing this with you, your whole arguement about health care is that you claim that certin people can not provide for themselves, Am i right??? All you are doing is turning around and insist on using the concept of rights to disguise the fact of dependence. You are allowing the recipients of government subsidies to pretend that they are getting something they earned. Which in turn will perpetuate(sp) laziness.
Since when does need give someone a right??? Fifty years ago people whose kidneys were failing needed dialysis every bit as much as they do today, but there were no dialysis machines. Did they have a right to protection against kidney failure??? Was Mother Nature violating their rights by making their kidneys fail without a remedy? It makes no sense to say that need itself confers a right unless someone else has the ability to meet that need. So any "right" to medical care imposes on someone the obligation to provide care to those who cannot provide it for themselves. Again I ask, why can't people provide for themselves. Are we all not given education, jobs,food, houseing???
Do any of you even know the definition of a right, ok well ill post it since you guys don't know.
A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something you possess free and clear, something you can exercise without asking anyone else's permission.
Your arguments are getting more and more flippant. No one said need gives someone a 'right'. You keep on throwing that up. But, while we're with definitions, here are a couple of others for 'right' (yep... googled online dictionary - not my words):
"an abstract idea of that which is due to a person or governmental body by law or tradition or nature; "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
"a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral:"
I am glad that you brought up unalienable rights... Lets take a look at that...
According to the Founding Fathers unalienable rights are also regarded and known as liberty rights, because they protect the right to act freely. The wording of the Declaration of Independence is quite precise in this regard. It attributes to us the right to the pursuit of happiness, not to happiness per se. Society can't guarantee youy happiness, that's our own (personable) responsibility. All it can guarantee is the freedom to pursue it.The same way as the the right to life is the right to act freely for one's self-preservation. It is not a right to be immune from death by natural causes, even an untimely death. And the right to property is the right to act freely in the effort to acquire wealth, which is the right to BUY and sell and keep the fruits of one's labor. It is not a right to expect to be given wealt. So thanks or bringing up unalienable rights...
No, you are the one claiming people in mass are abusing the system and this is a vast overstated generalization.
Most of us here are merely saying we should do, want and expect better for our society. Why wouldn't we all want everyone in our nation to have all the basic needs we're discussing? You seem to ignore this point. But you seem to think everyone is just lazy or needs to pull themselves up by their bootlaces, even though they've got everything under the sun pushing a foot on their throat. You've yet to show one piece of evidence showing people in mass are abusing the system or that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? How bout you do that before accusing everyone else of simply fitting some jaded version of reality?
All of you, since i am the only one arguing this with you, your whole arguement about health care is that you claim that certin people can not provide for themselves, Am i right??? All you are doing is turning around and insist on using the concept of rights to disguise the fact of dependence. You are allowing the recipients of government subsidies to pretend that they are getting something they earned. Which in turn will perpetuate(sp) laziness.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Why don't you respond to the rest of the post. I see your running out of things to say.
why don't you stop derailing the thread and just come on out and say what you feel. you are against the health care reform because you feel it is taking money away from you. why not just state you agree with the 71% of the 23% of missouri voters that voted as a referendum against obama instead of allowing assistance for the uninsured? why not just admit you are only thinking of yourself and spare us the arguments and debates about "rites" and unalienable "rights"?
and you talk of "providing health care for themselves"....which is impossible...health care is provided by the providers, as in medical health professionals ie MDs, DOs, nurses, emts, physical therapists, mental health professionals, etc. i guarantee you are not "providing health care" to yourself or your family members. you are simply paying for the insurance company to pay your health care providers for providing a service to you and nothing more.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
....that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? .
There is plenty of evidence (official figures, if one cares to google it) to show it is not. The links I posted showing how poorly the USA performed compared to other major western countries is just one of the numerous articles proving that things are not working in the US.
Universal/National health - the real thing - is not 'given'. One pays for it through taxes. Just like government pension, just like unemployment, just like salaries for fire officers, policemen/women, etc. One can argue that you get a hell of a lot more out of the small percentage of your salary taken for health than any insurance can offer.
Of course Heidijam will talk about those that don't have a job so don't pay taxes like the hard working folk so why should 'we' pay for the lazy bastards. Our personal responsibilities include social responsibilities. Through our taxes we all pay for services that we may not use or use less than others. Health is the same. Again, looking at the Declaration of Human Rights (since we seem to be stuck with rights - or even rites), medical care is one of them.
....that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? .
There is plenty of evidence (official figures, if one cares to google it) to show it is not. The links I posted showing how poorly the USA performed compared to other major western countries is just one of the numerous articles proving that things are not working in the US.
Universal/National health - the real thing - is not 'given'. One pays for it through taxes. Just like government pension, just like unemployment, just like salaries for fire officers, policemen/women, etc. One can argue that you get a hell of a lot more out of the small percentage of your salary taken for health than any insurance can offer.
Of course Heidijam will talk about those that don't have a job so don't pay taxes like the hard working folk so why should 'we' pay for the lazy bastards. Our personal responsibilities include social responsibilities. Through our taxes we all pay for services that we may not use or use less than others. Health is the same. Again, looking at the Declaration of Human Rights (since we seem to be stuck with rights - or even rites), medical care is one of them.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
No, you are the one claiming people in mass are abusing the system and this is a vast overstated generalization.
Most of us here are merely saying we should do, want and expect better for our society. Why wouldn't we all want everyone in our nation to have all the basic needs we're discussing? You seem to ignore this point. But you seem to think everyone is just lazy or needs to pull themselves up by their bootlaces, even though they've got everything under the sun pushing a foot on their throat. You've yet to show one piece of evidence showing people in mass are abusing the system or that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? How bout you do that before accusing everyone else of simply fitting some jaded version of reality?
Please show me where i used the term "mass" And it is not a overstated generalization when the rates of welfare & foodstamps continue to rise. People are using these programs as means to live...
No most of you are trying to argue that health care is a right, and now that i have proven you wrong on several accounts, you are now reverting back being defensive since you have nothing left to say.
What makes you think giving these things to people and not having them earn it is better for society. Once you quit rewarding laziness in the form of gov checks, then you will see a better society. You should provide for your family the basic needs. If everyone is entitled to basic needs then why do i have to buy my own food, why don't i get food stamps??? I work but i don't want to spend my money on food that should be provided to me RIGHT??? I don't think everyone is lazy, but I do think that people lack personal responsibilities, and what my wife experiences in an inner city school (issues with parents care) and where we live, I am most certinly allowed to voice my opinion on mine and my wifes experiences and it is that people that recieve the gov check are lazy and feel entitled to it. And now you want to throw in health care??? I don't know anybody that has ever complained to me that their health care is not affordable, so quit making mass generalizaionts that people can't pay for their own health care.
....that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? .
There is plenty of evidence (official figures, if one cares to google it) to show it is not. The links I posted showing how poorly the USA performed compared to other major western countries is just one of the numerous articles proving that things are not working in the US.
Universal/National health - the real thing - is not 'given'. One pays for it through taxes. Just like government pension, just like unemployment, just like salaries for fire officers, policemen/women, etc. One can argue that you get a hell of a lot more out of the small percentage of your salary taken for health than any insurance can offer.
Of course Heidijam will talk about those that don't have a job so don't pay taxes like the hard working folk so why should 'we' pay for the lazy bastards. Our personal responsibilities include social responsibilities. Through our taxes we all pay for services that we may not use or use less than others. Health is the same. Again, looking at the Declaration of Human Rights (since we seem to be stuck with rights - or even rites), medical care is one of them.
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Injury, illness, & poor health are not freak accidents - they happen to nearly everyone at some point or another.
I think some people dispute your repeated claim that everyone has the same opportunities. Your claim that healthcare is affordable is also in dispute (in fact you may be the only person I've ever known to make such a claim).
And I already said shelter is a right.
Not all are given equal opportunities. And even if you are born in a family which offers these opportunities at more than a basic level, you may not be able to use these at your best advantage (through no fault of your own, ie laziness..). Even if you have succeeded, you can fall just as quickly. Also, what is to 'succeed in life'? Has a short order cook or a janitor 'succeeded in life' as much as the CEO of a large firm or a lawyer or doctor? From my point of view they have (ie they have a job, etc.). Can those who have 'succeeded' but are at the lower echelon afford the healthcare a CEO can? Nope. And before one says that the janitor can aim higher and it's his/her own fault for being in a menial jobs, remember - someone has to do them. And maybe that's where the 'given opportunities' were not so equal.
Example about healthcare.... I have a specialist hospital appointment today. A growth was discovered (no charge to see your doctor, anytime). Got my appointment within two weeks of initial discovery. Today, I will be having scans, tests and will be seeing a specialist consultant who will decide the course of action. I will walk in, let the professionals do what they need to do and walk out (and eventually continue with treatment). I will not pay a penny, have to sort stuff out with insurance companies waiting for them to decide whether they will pay out this time or not. Any health issue is already stressful, at least I don't have the financial/insurance side of things to add to this stress. Wondering how it would be if I lived in the US....
If you lived here you wouldn't even have been seen yet.
Hope all goes well with your appointment!
Nobody wants Social Security until they're old and need the money
Nobody wants Medicare until they are old and realize they can't afford private ins. on their tight budget
Nobody wants unemployment until they get fu#$ed over by their faceless, corporate boss
Nobody wants a tax increase in order to fund a new firehouse until their home is burning to the ground
Bottom line: We are all in it for ourselves and anytime you ask one of us to put the whole before ourselves, we scream socialism or whatever keyword is being thrown around at the time. Me,me, me, me, me.....I'm tired.
Thanks.
There's all kinds of talks about 'waiting times' but I came across this:
"In a 2009 survey of physician appointment wait times in the United States..... Nationwide across the U.S. the average wait time to see a family doctor was 20 days. The average wait time to see a family practioner in Los Angeles, California was 59 days and in Boston, Massachusetts it was 63 days.[56]"
I get to see my doctor within a couple of days. It can be a day or two longer wait if it is during very busy periods.
Oh so true. Though they throw the word 'socialism' around a lot, I don't think most americans even know what socialism is!
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
and apparently you have not read my posts earlier in the thread where i commented on the 700 russiansa day passing away due to the heat and fires and bad air. and you must not have read the thread about the guy dying in the sauna, so for you to say i have said such things and do not care about people in other countries is simply a lie.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Maybe this will help you understand what one means about basic human rights:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
About being part of a 'collective' and looking after each other (and not being utterly selfish):
Article 1.
* All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
About rights to a quality of life, social care and health care:
Article 25.
* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Naturally, these are only 2 articles out of 30. Should you read the complete declaration, it may enlighten you and help you understand what people are talking about instead of mentioning A/C yet again.
The arguments are getting more and more funny!
Since when does arguing about healthcare equal not caring about other countries?
I don't live in your country and am arguing for better health care so argument dismissed on my end
ScienceDaily:
US Ranks Last Among 7 Countries on Health System Performance, New Report Says
ScienceDaily (June 23, 2010) — Despite having the most expensive health care system, the United States ranks last overall compared to six other industrialized countries -- Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom -- on measures of health system performance in five areas: quality, efficiency, access to care, equity and the ability to lead long, healthy, productive lives, according to a new Commonwealth Fund report.
# On measures of access to care, people in the U.S. have the hardest time affording the health care they need -- with the U.S. ranking last on every measure of cost-related access problems. For example, 54 percent of adults with chronic conditions reported problems getting a recommended test, treatment or follow-up care because of cost. In the Netherlands, which ranked first on this measure, only 7 percent of adults with chronic conditions reported this problem.
# On measures of healthy lives, the U.S. does poorly, ranking last when it comes to infant mortality and deaths before age 75 that were potentially preventable with timely access to effective health care, and second to last on healthy life expectancy at age 60.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085530.htm
Do any of you even know the definition of a right, ok well ill post it since you guys don't know.
A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something you possess free and clear, something you can exercise without asking anyone else's permission.
Your arguments are getting more and more flippant. No one said need gives someone a 'right'. You keep on throwing that up. But, while we're with definitions, here are a couple of others for 'right' (yep... googled online dictionary - not my words):
"an abstract idea of that which is due to a person or governmental body by law or tradition or nature; "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
"a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral:"
:roll: :roll:
According to the Founding Fathers unalienable rights are also regarded and known as liberty rights, because they protect the right to act freely. The wording of the Declaration of Independence is quite precise in this regard. It attributes to us the right to the pursuit of happiness, not to happiness per se. Society can't guarantee youy happiness, that's our own (personable) responsibility. All it can guarantee is the freedom to pursue it.The same way as the the right to life is the right to act freely for one's self-preservation. It is not a right to be immune from death by natural causes, even an untimely death. And the right to property is the right to act freely in the effort to acquire wealth, which is the right to BUY and sell and keep the fruits of one's labor. It is not a right to expect to be given wealt. So thanks or bringing up unalienable rights...
Most of us here are merely saying we should do, want and expect better for our society. Why wouldn't we all want everyone in our nation to have all the basic needs we're discussing? You seem to ignore this point. But you seem to think everyone is just lazy or needs to pull themselves up by their bootlaces, even though they've got everything under the sun pushing a foot on their throat. You've yet to show one piece of evidence showing people in mass are abusing the system or that healthcare is affordable for the common man in our society? How bout you do that before accusing everyone else of simply fitting some jaded version of reality?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
and you talk of "providing health care for themselves"....which is impossible...health care is provided by the providers, as in medical health professionals ie MDs, DOs, nurses, emts, physical therapists, mental health professionals, etc. i guarantee you are not "providing health care" to yourself or your family members. you are simply paying for the insurance company to pay your health care providers for providing a service to you and nothing more.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Not really. Just not worth responding to the same, rehashed comments over and over again.
There is plenty of evidence (official figures, if one cares to google it) to show it is not. The links I posted showing how poorly the USA performed compared to other major western countries is just one of the numerous articles proving that things are not working in the US.
Universal/National health - the real thing - is not 'given'. One pays for it through taxes. Just like government pension, just like unemployment, just like salaries for fire officers, policemen/women, etc. One can argue that you get a hell of a lot more out of the small percentage of your salary taken for health than any insurance can offer.
Of course Heidijam will talk about those that don't have a job so don't pay taxes like the hard working folk so why should 'we' pay for the lazy bastards. Our personal responsibilities include social responsibilities. Through our taxes we all pay for services that we may not use or use less than others. Health is the same. Again, looking at the Declaration of Human Rights (since we seem to be stuck with rights - or even rites), medical care is one of them.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
No most of you are trying to argue that health care is a right, and now that i have proven you wrong on several accounts, you are now reverting back being defensive since you have nothing left to say.
What makes you think giving these things to people and not having them earn it is better for society. Once you quit rewarding laziness in the form of gov checks, then you will see a better society. You should provide for your family the basic needs. If everyone is entitled to basic needs then why do i have to buy my own food, why don't i get food stamps??? I work but i don't want to spend my money on food that should be provided to me RIGHT??? I don't think everyone is lazy, but I do think that people lack personal responsibilities, and what my wife experiences in an inner city school (issues with parents care) and where we live, I am most certinly allowed to voice my opinion on mine and my wifes experiences and it is that people that recieve the gov check are lazy and feel entitled to it. And now you want to throw in health care??? I don't know anybody that has ever complained to me that their health care is not affordable, so quit making mass generalizaionts that people can't pay for their own health care.