71% Mo. voters reject key provision of health care law

_

HeidiJam wrote:

SCB, this seems to be another thread where it has winded out to me and you going back and forth. I really respect your opinions and educating answers on the subject. Someday we will agree on something, but that topic has yet to come up. thanks for having respectful answers and not emotional ones.

Cool. If you would like more information about the healthcare system, I can direct you to some good resources if you're interested.

And we agreed on something once. I can't remember what it was, but I remember posting, "Look HeidiJam! We actually agree on something!"

TriumphantAngel

HeidiJam wrote:

scb wrote:

3. Heidi - Do you or do you not believe we should have police departments, fire departments, health inspectors (like for restaurants), etc.?

Those are all public services that we pay for with out tax money. So yes we should have them. Our money pays for their lives. So why should they not serve the public? I am not sure at what you are trying to get at.

We do serve the public. all of the public. rich or poor. if we go to a situation where multiple people need assistance, we base our decision on who to help first depending on who needs treatment the most urgently. the best health coverage in the world won't get you faster treatment under those circumstances, and neither it should.

we don't discriminate and treat people faster who think they have more right than others to be attended to. so if you are involved in an an accident and are seriously hurt and there is someone who has injuries more severe than yours, you just have to wait until we can get to you or someone else arrives to help.

as it should be.

Blockhead

I will answer your questions since you have answered mine.
1. Patients should not be restricted but be more informed on medicines and by staying healthy with exercising and eating right. You should not have to go to the dr everytime you get a cold or a headace. I know several people who go to the dr all the time and want all these medications. I wish the dr would sometimes say "you don't need the drugs, you need to loose 200 lbs"
2. Single payer would not make a difference.
3. Yes it is the insurances fault, this is one of the issues i have with the current system.

Yes we all have the same opportunity, some will have to work harder, but the opportunity is THERE. My wifes school has several new programs this school year making it almost impossible for these minorities not to graduate. They are really trying very hard to have the drop out rates decline. And those worse jobs will always be filled by someone. Like they are today. Some people have no desire to work long hours, work hard, or go to school, some people may like doing those jobs, but people will do them. Maybe some people take pride in their work being a grabage man or janitor, they are making a difference, no matter what job they have, thats all some people need to get up in the morning to go to work.
We don't know if were the lucky ones, but we can't live our lives evening out every good and service for everybody. Our houses could get struck by lighting at any moment and burn to the ground and we could loose family members, that is very unlucky. Do we deem it a right to have lighting protection installin in every house? If you want these good and services, and you can afford them, then you have a right to them.
What about flood insurance? should that be a right?
I would have to be on unemployment for a long time to start receiving other peoples money. All of our employers have a pot of money they have to provide for your unemployment. They are basically paying you back the money they took out.
No contradiction, i said Serious Condition, I have prepared for small common medical expenese, its the serious ones that no one is prepared for in which i was takling about. There are programs like COBRA that is not medicaid or medicare. And is similar to what your employer provided you.
You are right about hardships and your example of your cousin. Things are different for everybody. That is why we have opinions. I can only express my views comming from my experiences

_

I disagree that no one is prepared for major medical expenses. Do you know who IS prepared for them? People in countries with universal healthcare.

markin ball

HeidiJam wrote:

I will answer your questions since you have answered mine.
1. Patients should not be restricted but be more informed on medicines and by staying healthy with exercising and eating right. You should not have to go to the dr everytime you get a cold or a headace. I know several people who go to the dr all the time and want all these medications. I wish the dr would sometimes say "you don't need the drugs, you need to loose 200 lbs"
2. Single payer would not make a difference.
3. Yes it is the insurances fault, this is one of the issues i have with the current system.

Yes we all have the same opportunity, some will have to work harder, but the opportunity is THERE. My wifes school has several new programs this school year making it almost impossible for these minorities not to graduate. They are really trying very hard to have the drop out rates decline. And those worse jobs will always be filled by someone. Like they are today. Some people have no desire to work long hours, work hard, or go to school, some people may like doing those jobs, but people will do them. Maybe some people take pride in their work being a grabage man or janitor, they are making a difference, no matter what job they have, thats all some people need to get up in the morning to go to work.
We don't know if were the lucky ones, but we can't live our lives evening out every good and service for everybody. Our houses could get struck by lighting at any moment and burn to the ground and we could loose family members, that is very unlucky. Do we deem it a right to have lighting protection installin in every house? If you want these good and services, and you can afford them, then you have a right to them.
What about flood insurance? should that be a right?
I would have to be on unemployment for a long time to start receiving other peoples money. All of our employers have a pot of money they have to provide for your unemployment. They are basically paying you back the money they took out.
No contradiction, i said Serious Condition, I have prepared for small common medical expenese, its the serious ones that no one is prepared for in which i was takling about. There are programs like COBRA that is not medicaid or medicare. And is similar to what your employer provided you.
You are right about hardships and your example of your cousin. Things are different for everybody. That is why we have opinions. I can only express my views comming from my experiences

I feel what your saying..."Where does it end?". I think that is a valid question. I just think some of us believe that the line shouldn't be drawn at health care, and some of believe that it can be drawn there. People abuse the police system every day but I think it is probably a good idea that they are there. It is the nature of the beast that there will be abuses in any system. Should we do away with "socialized" police? So I guess I am asking where you might draw the line. What socialized programs are you willing to go along with? Fire Dept., Police, schools, streets, health care. On another note, the fact is that we already have socialized health care. It is called the emergency room. The problem is that it is a totally ineffecient and highly costly way to do it and instead of the government/taxpayers paying for it, the insured pay higher premiums to pay for the uninsured. So since we,as a society,have pretty much decided that we're not giong to let people die in the streets (emergency room), shouldn't we make it more fair and increase the amount of people paying into the pot?

KDH12

Wow

too much here to comment and SCB pretty covered it all

Hedijam I would recommend proof reading your posts or taking a grammar class, however reading what you write is good evidence that the government can't run schools either but mixing up right and rite is just silly :P

ONCE DEVIDED

HeidiJam wrote:

Health care is not a RIGHT...

IT IS IN MY COUNTRY
and most others as well

haffajappa

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Health care is not a RIGHT...

IT IS IN MY COUNTRY
and most others as well

Owning a gun is a much more important right. (:
No access to health care doesn't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.

ONCE DEVIDED

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Health care is not a RIGHT...

IT IS IN MY COUNTRY
and most others as well

also in my country you have the responsability to pay health insurance if you can do it. taking the strain off the public system.
Im happy to pay my taxes to help those in my community who cannot afford or whos bills are too high.
The gov also pay for the medicines as well if you are cronically ill or on welfare. all you have to pay is $5
and I can tell you ahving a child who takes
UP to 30 tablets a day, Enzymes and antibiotics
nebulised antibiotics , sometimes up to 5 lots a day
those bills would drown us. let alone hospital stays , hospital clinic visits
she is so lucky that she wasnt born in the USA

haffajappa

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Health care is not a RIGHT...

IT IS IN MY COUNTRY
and most others as well

also in my country you have the responsability to pay health insurance if you can do it. taking the strain off the public system.
Im happy to pay my taxes to help those in my community who cannot afford or whos bills are too high.
The gov also pay for the medicines as well if you are cronically ill or on welfare. all you have to pay is $5
and I can tell you ahving a child who takes
UP to 30 tablets a day, Enzymes and antibiotics
nebulised antibiotics , sometimes up to 5 lots a day
those bills would drown us. let alone hospital stays , hospital clinic visits
she is so lucky that she wasnt born in the USA

Where are you from?
In B.C. MSP (Medical Services Plan) will wave your yearly bills if you are under a certain tax bracket
My mom knew someone who a little while ago went across the border to shop or something and had an aneurism and had to go to the hospital and it costed them 40 grand :shock:

redrock

HeidiJam wrote:

Please tell me what is not a right???
Why is food not a right?
WHy is shelter not a right?

Are there not food stamps in the US (thus 'giving' food as a 'right'). Not sure how the US deals with shelter for those families who can no longer pay their mortgage or rent at market value (due to circumstances beyond their control).

I live in a country with a National Health Care system (amongst other things!). I've lived in countries without. No prize for you in guessing which system I would rather live in.

However one plans, you can NEVER fully plan for a major, unexpected health issue. Even insurances have so many exclusions/limits, etc. So you then have the choice to die, be/stay disabled or have a sub-standard life due to illness.

Heidijam - I hope you and your family ALWAYS enjoy good health and nothing drastic happens to you guys. Unless you have a million or two stashed away, just for possible health disaster.

Blockhead

redrock wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Please tell me what is not a right???
Why is food not a right?
WHy is shelter not a right?

Are there not food stamps in the US (thus 'giving' food as a 'right'). Not sure how the US deals with shelter for those families who can no longer pay their mortgage or rent at market value (due to circumstances beyond their control).

I live in a country with a National Health Care system (amongst other things!). I've lived in countries without. No prize for you in guessing which system I would rather live in.

However one plans, you can NEVER fully plan for a major, unexpected health issue. Even insurances have so many exclusions/limits, etc. So you then have the choice to die, be/stay disabled or have a sub-standard life due to illness.

Heidijam - I hope you and your family ALWAYS enjoy good health and nothing drastic happens to you guys. Unless you have a million or two stashed away, just for possible health disaster.

No one can ever fully plan on a freak or natural accident... Thats why you pay to protect your self. Should flood insurance be a rite? what about tornado???WHy is shelter not a rite?
So your line of thinking is its acceptable to throw people out of their houses and expect them to survive but its out of the question to have them pay for their own health or food???
Why do we have the mentality that goods and services are rites?
I don't like the idea that i have to pay for people who don't take care of themselves. What about the people living off welfare and food stamps? They provide nothing to society yet are able to live a fully privilaged life just like someone who works their ass off. Makes no sense to me why we believe that continual giving and evening things out for everybody is some how beneifiting society. We are now awarding people who are lazy and punishing people who work for what they want.

redrock

HeidiJam wrote:

So your line of thinking is its acceptable to throw people out of their houses and expect them to survive but its out of the question to have them pay for their own health or food??? .

Never said that. I said I didn't know what provisions there were in the US for such cases.

HeidiJam wrote:

I don't like the idea that i have to pay for people who don't take care of themselves. What about the people living off welfare and food stamps? They provide nothing to society yet are able to live a fully privilaged life just like someone who works their ass off. Makes no sense to me why we believe that continual giving and evening things out for everybody is some how beneifiting society. We are now awarding people who are lazy and punishing people who work for what they want.

You are making huge generalisations. I would say that the majority of people having to live off food stamps and other miserable benefits do not do so out of laziness. Defavourable circumstances in their lives caused a downturn and help is needed.

From a health point of view, no one can plan/see the future. I experienced this first hand. Lucky I live in a country which took care/is still taking care of my husband with everything he needs for his recovery and my family does not suffer financially. In fact, I did not pay a penny. Should this have been in the US, my husband would probably not be alive and/or I would probably be over $1 million out of the pocket, having lost my home in the process.

Again - I hope nothing ever happens to you and your family as, I guess, in those circumstances you would not want to accept any of the government help available (unemployment, etc.).

FiveB247x

Why does it always go back to the idea that some group of people are getting all the free passes in society and everyone is tired of paying their tab? This is such a huge and overstated misnomer in every facet of the commentary. The fact is our system inherently separates people economically, and albeit some can change that, it's not practically feasible or reasonable to expect everyone to do so. The general public is not you, it's everyone, so simply because you find something possible or have a positive experience with something, doesn't make it so for everyone. Lastly, how hard is it to acknowledge that everyone in our society should be afforded basic things like food, healthcare, housing, etc? The reality is we don't because we make disgusting characterizations on why some don't deserve it or how it's their own fault they can't get to a normal standing. Quite frankly it's despicable and shows on so many levels why we are such a morally bankrupt society. We value money over people and it's grotesque.

HeidiJam wrote:

No one can ever fully plan on a freak or natural accident... Thats why you pay to protect your self. Should flood insurance be a rite? what about tornado???WHy is shelter not a rite?
So your line of thinking is its acceptable to throw people out of their houses and expect them to survive but its out of the question to have them pay for their own health or food???
Why do we have the mentality that goods and services are rites?
I don't like the idea that i have to pay for people who don't take care of themselves. What about the people living off welfare and food stamps? They provide nothing to society yet are able to live a fully privilaged life just like someone who works their ass off. Makes no sense to me why we believe that continual giving and evening things out for everybody is some how beneifiting society. We are now awarding people who are lazy and punishing people who work for what they want.

Blockhead

redrock wrote:

You are making huge generalisations. I would say that the majority of people having to live off food stamps and other miserable benefits do not do so out of laziness. Defavourable circumstances in their lives caused a downturn and help is needed.

From a health point of view, no one can plan/see the future. I experienced this first hand. Lucky I live in a country which took care/is still taking care of my husband with everything he needs for his recovery and my family does not suffer financially. In fact, I did not pay a penny. Should this have been in the US, my husband would probably not be alive and/or I would probably be over $1 million out of the pocket, having lost my home in the process.

Again - I hope nothing ever happens to you and your family as, I guess, in those circumstances you would not want to accept any of the government help available (unemployment, etc.).

Again, I pay into unemployment out of everypay check, Yes I am entitled to it. I am basically getting my money back that they took out of my pay. My point it where does it end. No one can see plan into the future with any point of view. SOme people are delt a bad hand in life, its up to the parents to be responsible and get basic needs for their children and themselves, Food, Shelter, healthcare - If you can't afford those then you need to cut back on whatever you are spending your money on. These are all affordable. And considering we are all given the same opportunities to succeed and choose what we do with our lives I see no reason why you can't be responsible enough to get your own healthcare?
Here is an example a personal example - My wife is a teach in the projects, the school is 95% black. Well every year she can either call or make house visits to the students partens to introduce her self. I would say about 75% of these houses (she tells me) has cinder blocks holding up a piece of plywood for their kitchen table. yet you walk into their living room and there is a huge plasma TV with surround sound and leather couches. Point being YES they can afford food and health care, people are just choosing to spend it on other luxuries in life.

Blockhead

FiveB247x wrote:

Why does it always go back to the idea that some group of people are getting all the free passes in society and everyone is tired of paying their tab? This is such a huge and overstated misnomer in every facet of the commentary. The fact is our system inherently separates people economically, and albeit some can change that, it's not practically feasible or reasonable to expect everyone to do so. The general public is not you, it's everyone, so simply because you find something possible or have a positive experience with something, doesn't make it so for everyone. Lastly, how hard is it to acknowledge that everyone in our society should be afforded basic things like food, healthcare, housing, etc? The reality is we don't because we make disgusting characterizations on why some don't deserve it or how it's their own fault they can't get to a normal standing. Quite frankly it's despicable and shows on so many levels why we are such a morally bankrupt society. We value money over people and it's grotesque.

You act as if people are born without brains... Everybody knows what it takes to succeed in life, we are all made availabe to the tools and we are all equally provided with these tools. Some may have to work hard than others. SO quit acting like people are hand picked to succeed and others to fail, how about let people make their own decisions and if they choose the wrong path so be it. THis isn't land of the fair, its land of the free, do what you want. But dont expect other people to pay for your personal responsibilities. take care of your self and families needs, not wants. What are peoples incentives to work ones you start deeming, healthcare, housing, etc. rites.

FiveB247x

It's got nothing to do with "brains" or simply "expecting others to pay for your personal responsibilities". I underlined a comment you made, which basically undermines your point. It has nothing to do with fair, but it does specifically say if there is such inequality, the cards are stacked against some to do the simple things you say. Access to things is not the same and therefore the results for all are different (and not in a good way). You keep bringing up things like paying for others, or wide sweeping generalizations bout how so many are bucking the system and stealing your money. You keep saying this isn't the land of the free, but somehow you take that to mean it's ok to screw others over by claiming nonsensical excuses like many you have stated. Life isn't fair and there's no perfect way, but there is good and bad practice. You seem to be ok with the latter because it fills your skewed vision of society and puts the onus on the one's being wronged, as if they deserve it because they're doing something wrong...which I find ironic, because in the other thread about voting, you seem to talk about how skewed the system is and impenetrable to change, yet here where the results are felt and proved in practice upon society, you flip to the other side of the coin. You also completely ignore all the hardline facts we have about how the common working man in our nation works more, gets less, costs of everything rise, but somehow you hold the people responsible for this? Doesn't add up.

HeidiJam wrote:

You act as if people are born without brains... Everybody knows what it takes to succeed in life, we are all made availabe to the tools and we are all equally provided with these tools. Some may have to work hard than others. SO quit acting like people are hand picked to succeed and others to fail, how about let people make their own decisions and if they choose the wrong path so be it. THis isn't land of the fair, its land of the free, do what you want. But dont expect other people to pay for your personal responsibilities. take care of your self and families needs, not wants. What are peoples incentives to work ones you start deeming, healthcare, housing, etc. rites.

redrock

Personally, I think one has to have lived in a country with National Health/Universal Health (however one wants to call it) to understand the benefits. Or maybe the other way.. one may have to experience the trauma and potential downfall an unexpected illness can cause a family in a country where there is no national healthcare and one needs to pay for every little bit of care they get. This could be because they can't afford insurance (yep.. people may have to choose between putting food on the table or spending hundreds of $ a month on insurance), because their insurance won't pay up for the illness or caps payments, etc.).

For all those that believe everyone needs to be selfish and self sufficient - I really hope nothing ever happens to you.

Heidijam... you contribute to potential unemployment benefit through your taxes, therefore you say you are entitled to it. Will you then only accept to receive the amount you put in? I guess not. I guess when push comes to shove and you are without a job you will take ANYTHING that is on offer to be able to keep a roof over your child(ren)'s head. I guess some governments/countries take better care of their people than others.

gimmesometruth27

redrock wrote:

I guess some governments/countries take better care of their people than others.

i would like to live in a country that has national health care at some point in my life. but since i would not be a citizen of tha country when i arrive i might be eligible for coverage. regarding your quote above, what is the old saying? in the US they care about you until you are born, yet once you are born you are on your own...or something to that effect....

redrock

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

redrock wrote:

I guess some governments/countries take better care of their people than others.

i would like to live in a country that has national health care at some point in my life. but since i would not be a citizen of tha country when i arrive i might be eligible for coverage.
.

In the UK any resident is entitled to free health care. You need to be here legally and show you are 'settled' (ie studying, working, etc.). If you can demonstrate that, there is no minimum 'waiting' period. This is for 'normal' healthcare. Naturally emergencies, walk-ins at A&E etc. are open to everyone (family planning too!). EU residents are entitled to NHS care as well with no strings attached. This is obviously very broad but it gives you the gist of things.

Naturally, the NHS is FAR from perfect but it's 100 times better than what is on offer (or rather not on offer) in the US.