HediJam - you ever gonna post any backup for your claims about healthcare costs or insurance being affordable?
But I still stand in my opinion that We deem what is affordable by our actions and decisions through life. We all have the means to get educations, and choosing the field in which we study. I don't think blaming other people for things that are in yoru control, such as education, jobs, etc.. is the right way to solve the problem.
Also I think there something missing form those stats. I didn't see anything about the automobile and airline industry that had all those lay offs, and those companies were carrying 100% health care insurance for their employees. As that could skew the stats.
Yes people can obtain an education but not all are given the same opportunities to access that education. I am a high school teacher and you keep saying that everybody is given the same right to education .... no they are not. Many kids come from backgrounds where parents do not value education and the students are not given the support required for them to break through the poverty cycle. Yes a few do break out but not many.... I did..... It is fairly naive to assume that because people can go to school that they have the tools or the support that is required to be able to freely choose their paths in lives. If nobody will support or help you or your parent devalues your learning it is hard to get enough kudo to want to work hard enough to achieve even partial success. Teachers can only do so much... So quite often and not always, kids decisions are cut off from them, and the cycle of poverty (and in the US I am assuming a lack of health care) continues.
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
HediJam - you ever gonna post any backup for your claims about healthcare costs or insurance being affordable?
But I still stand in my opinion that We deem what is affordable by our actions and decisions through life. We all have the means to get educations, and choosing the field in which we study. I don't think blaming other people for things that are in yoru control, such as education, jobs, etc.. is the right way to solve the problem.
Also I think there something missing form those stats. I didn't see anything about the automobile and airline industry that had all those lay offs, and those companies were carrying 100% health care insurance for their employees. As that could skew the stats.
Yes people can obtain an education but not all are given the same opportunities to access that education. I am a high school teacher and you keep saying that everybody is given the same right to education .... no they are not. Many kids come from backgrounds where parents do not value education and the students are not given the support required for them to break through the poverty cycle. Yes a few do break out but not many.... I did..... It is fairly naive to assume that because people can go to school that they have the tools or the support that is required to be able to freely choose their paths in lives. If nobody will support or help you or your parent devalues your learning it is hard to get enough kudo to want to work hard enough to achieve even partial success. Teachers can only do so much... So quite often and not always, kids decisions are cut off from them, and the cycle of poverty (and in the US I am assuming a lack of health care) continues.
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
Meaning everyone child is not given the proper means to become a thriving adult. It's takes a community type of mentality is what works best and in our economic separation, many lower income areas don't succeed as well or much simply because of the means and ways (whether directly by parents or overall by community) to accomplish as much. Parents can only do so much, teachers can only do so much, and if not setup to succeed, children can/will only amount to so much.
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our system needs work, but privatization is just moving backwards.
you can turn grapes into a wine, but you cannot turn a wine into a grape.
When you talk about healthcare as an industry, right or wrong you are talking about roughly 1/6th of our economy. It is huge...contrary to what some may think, these companies actually have people who work for them. These people rely on this private industry to survive. Putting this genie back in the bottle is not as simple as moving to a universal system.
Personally I would love a universal system, but it just isn't that simple, that is why we get a monstrosity like the recent health care bill.
Tough to say which one truly benefits society more...but always remember this, people here (minnesota) go to the emergency room for bad colds...
also, I think it is ingrained in most Americans to have a distrust of all things Authority...especially if the authority is doing things you disagree with. I don't have a problem with authority, more along the lines of their ability to exercise that authority in a cost effective beneficial way
ehh, don't worry about the people working for these companies.
...according to heidijam there are TONS of jobs in your country that lazy people just aren't taking advantage of!
Meaning everyone child is not given the proper means to become a thriving adult. It's takes a community type of mentality is what works best and in our economic separation, many lower income areas don't succeed as well or much simply because of the means and ways (whether directly by parents or overall by community) to accomplish as much. Parents can only do so much, teachers can only do so much, and if not setup to succeed, children can/will only amount to so much.
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
I used to work at a community school, you should have seen some of those parents.
Having their next fix or finding the new boyfriend was more important than reading with their children or even getting them to school on time.
Also, its pretty obvious but if the parents can't break through the poverty cycle i'm pretty sure they can't pay for their children to attend university.
Like I said, how many high end jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
I used to work at a community school, you should have seen some of those parents.
Having their next fix or finding the new boyfriend was more important than reading with their children or even getting them to school on time.
Also, its pretty obvious but if the parents can't break through the poverty cycle i'm pretty sure they can't pay for their children to attend university.
Like I said, how many high end jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
I think all have equal access to primary/secondary school (whatever it is called in the US - up until end of high school) and education as there are schools and all children are expected to attend up to a certain age. Whether all children have an equal opportunity to take advantage of that access and benefit from it, that's a different story. This is where family situation/ethos, family finances, community, intellectual/physical capabilities come into play. Also, all schools are not equal insofar as quality of the school and the teachers and 'quality' of the pupils. Naturally, this also has a huge impact on what a child can hope to achieve. We all know, there are good schools and bad schools. Unfortunately, most 'bad' schools will usually have the pupils with less 'motivation' and support.
I know but my point is that a person's education in a capitalist system is usually directly linked to their capacity to earns an income and thus medical insurance.
I just hope we never do away with tax funded medicare and our pharmaceutical scheme in Australia. Life without that protection sounds terrible. :shock:
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
I know but my point is that a person's education in a capitalist system is usually directly linked to their capacity to earns an income and thus medical insurance. :
In general it is, yes. Stats prove that children from certain backgrounds do not fare as well as those from better off backgrounds and thus has an impact on their further education, future jobs and earnings.
As much as we would like it, we are not born equal and, whilst it's true one can always strive to change their 'path' and some are very successful at this, it is not always achievable (through no particular fault of their own).
It is to be noted also that a lot of 'successful' people from better backgrounds are not in the jobs they studied for/strived for and can't afford healthcare. I did see statistics about the number of people that are in jobs far below their level of achievement and it's shocking. One can have a great degree, but if there is no work in the field or at the required level, they flip burgers at some fast food place.
Heidijam - I won't quote your last post because it's just too much. Trains and trolleys :roll: Before you go off with those kinds of reasons, you REALLY need to educate yourself as to how universal healthcare actually works and is implemented. Many, many studies have been made on how it could be implemented in the USA - just google. Point 4 is particularly ludicrous.
Edit: Looks like you got another post in before my reply, so it's not your last post that I'm referencing but the one before.
Heidijam - I won't quote your last post because it's just too much. Trains and trolleys :roll: Before you go off with those kinds of reasons, you REALLY need to educate yourself as to how universal healthcare actually works and is implemented. Many, many studies have been made on how it could be implemented in the USA - just google. Point 4 is particularly ludicrous.
Edit: Looks like you got another post in before my reply, so it's not your last post that I'm referencing but the one before.
**sighs** I said there was no reason for the system not to work. Not the same, is it? This is getting tiresome - try reading.
Redrock, you talk as if everything is really fine and dandy where you are. Isn't your country also in a huge recesion, racking up debt? Just asking.
Is that the impression you get? Why? I said our system has it flaws, etc., didn't I? I never spoke about our economy, did I? Note, we are not in a recession (yet!). Though, if you want to speak economy, don't you think that in times of mass cuts, redundancies, high unemployment etc. it is even more important to know that you are medically covered without having to resort to exhorbitant insurance premiums with limited cover?
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
I clearly understand that if the parent doesn't value education their kids likely will not either. Whose responsibility is that? I mean, we don't regulate who can and who can't have kids.
This is probably going to get the thread changed 180 degrees from the Health Care debate though so probably should stop.
i do not care about the for profit health insurance corporations in this country. not one bit. they are only in business for one reason and one reason alone: it is easy to turn a profit in the insurance industry. not just turn a profit, but turn an insanely large profit at the expense of those that pay their premiums every pay period. they do that by denying care and dictating medical care by saying "we will pay for THIS procedure, but not THAT procedure". it is disgusting. the simple solution to prevent a government takeover as so many fear is this....make it illegal for these corporations to turn a profit. they can stay in business but must be non-profit. if that were mandated, the companies that claim to care about patients will stay in business and provide health insuranc for all. all of the for-profit bastard corporations will get out of the business and then we would have either a non-profit system or a government run universal single payer system. it is s simple solution to me...
it isn't about the profits ... there are janitors, MA's, nurses, office workers etc that make their living working for insurance companies and HMO's... I realize since it isn't you who will be losing their job because of all the sweeping wide changes you want made you don't care, but it is a real concern for some people. tons of people will lose their jobs...I realize it sucks that some people have to actually pay for their healthcare because their insurance doesn't cover stuff, I am currently figuring out how to pay for a 3 week hospital stay for my baby that about only half of which is covered...but all I can do is pay for the care she received. It isn't going to be easy, I probably will have to do things I don't want to, but that is what I have to do. Universal health care on a single payer system is a great idea, I love it, but I just don't see how we can do it without causing a lot of harm to a lot of people. You focus on CEO salaries, not the actual employees of the company, it isn't like the CEO is answering the phones!
I agree that our system sucks, but you cannot just scrap it over night, you are taking away the livelihood of a lot of people and that needs to be figured out. You cannot say tough luck to some and have your hand out for others, it doesn't make sense.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
This is such a copout. In this day and age, everyone can have the ability to learn things outside of what their parents teach them....or even have the ability to accept or reject what their parents teach them.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
A long time ago, we - society in general - threw up our hands and decided that we can't pay for healthcare unless we pay someone else to pay it for us (insurance).
That is simply not true. We are paying for healthcare now, but we're just doing it by remote control (payroll deductions through employers generally) and that's allowing other entities to make that process one in which it takes tons of money to participate. We've given up control of our money and our healthcare and this is the mess we got as a result of it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i do not care about the for profit health insurance corporations in this country. not one bit. they are only in business for one reason and one reason alone: it is easy to turn a profit in the insurance industry. not just turn a profit, but turn an insanely large profit at the expense of those that pay their premiums every pay period. they do that by denying care and dictating medical care by saying "we will pay for THIS procedure, but not THAT procedure". it is disgusting. the simple solution to prevent a government takeover as so many fear is this....make it illegal for these corporations to turn a profit. they can stay in business but must be non-profit. if that were mandated, the companies that claim to care about patients will stay in business and provide health insuranc for all. all of the for-profit bastard corporations will get out of the business and then we would have either a non-profit system or a government run universal single payer system. it is s simple solution to me...
it isn't about the profits ... there are janitors, MA's, nurses, office workers etc that make their living working for insurance companies and HMO's... I realize since it isn't you who will be losing their job because of all the sweeping wide changes you want made you don't care, but it is a real concern for some people. tons of people will lose their jobs...I realize it sucks that some people have to actually pay for their healthcare because their insurance doesn't cover stuff, I am currently figuring out how to pay for a 3 week hospital stay for my baby that about only half of which is covered...but all I can do is pay for the care she received. It isn't going to be easy, I probably will have to do things I don't want to, but that is what I have to do. Universal health care on a single payer system is a great idea, I love it, but I just don't see how we can do it without causing a lot of harm to a lot of people. You focus on CEO salaries, not the actual employees of the company, it isn't like the CEO is answering the phones!
I agree that our system sucks, but you cannot just scrap it over night, you are taking away the livelihood of a lot of people and that needs to be figured out. You cannot say tough luck to some and have your hand out for others, it doesn't make sense.
i believe you misunderstood my post. i said those for profit companies could stay in business if they were NON-profit. meaning cover their overhead and pay their employees, janitors, secretaries, etc, and that is it. no profits, not massive ceo pay, none of that. if they were really interested in doing the noble thing and paying for the things they are supposed to pay for then that is how they would operate. but instead they are corporate whores with shareholders that they have to satisfy. you say it can not be done, i say it can, and for the good of our country and the citizens of our country it will be done like that. otherwise we will be stuck with the same broken down inefficient chitty system we have now where profits matter more than customers...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
But how many 75K a year jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
Answer: almost all of them.
You may not start out at 75K, but you can get there without a college degree. The degree basically gets your foot in the door in most business professions (with the exception of medical, etc.)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
We're getting off topic here, but I was listening to a great NPR podcast recently (Planet Money) in which they were talking about studies recently done that described when you joined the job market (no matter the field), basically determined your salary for a good portion of the rest of your career. I know it sounds pretty broad, but basically people who hit the market for a job during a recession or down turn will never see the money or be on the same pay scale as someone who hit the market during an upswing or good economy. Now I do recognize there's tons of factors in this discussion, but generically speaking, the things outside of our pure wants, needs and things we can accomplish to put ourselves in our position to get job x or y are only half the discussion of what's necessary to actually get that position. So in sum, the forces outside of your control, control just as much of your outcome and result as you do. Most people don't like to think or acknowledge that fact, but it is very, very relevant when discussing economic standing and mobility in our nation.
But how many 75K a year jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
Answer: almost all of them.
You may not start out at 75K, but you can get there without a college degree. The degree basically gets your foot in the door in most business professions (with the exception of medical, etc.)
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
But how many 75K a year jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
Answer: almost all of them.
You may not start out at 75K, but you can get there without a college degree. The degree basically gets your foot in the door in most business professions (with the exception of medical, etc.)
But how long does it take to get to $75K? For some, maybe most, a long time.
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
This is such a copout. In this day and age, everyone can have the ability to learn things outside of what their parents teach them....or even have the ability to accept or reject what their parents teach them.
I agree to a point. Parents have a huge role to play in their child's development. I don't think you can say it is a copout. Many, many people have kids (sometimes multiple kids) that never should. Ask any elementary school or junior high teacher about the parents of the students they teach. I guarantee you will hear some very disturbing trends. And, it will invoke in your a physical nausea when you hear about how poorly these teachers get paid.
i do not care about the for profit health insurance corporations in this country. not one bit. they are only in business for one reason and one reason alone: it is easy to turn a profit in the insurance industry. not just turn a profit, but turn an insanely large profit at the expense of those that pay their premiums every pay period. they do that by denying care and dictating medical care by saying "we will pay for THIS procedure, but not THAT procedure". it is disgusting. the simple solution to prevent a government takeover as so many fear is this....make it illegal for these corporations to turn a profit. they can stay in business but must be non-profit. if that were mandated, the companies that claim to care about patients will stay in business and provide health insuranc for all. all of the for-profit bastard corporations will get out of the business and then we would have either a non-profit system or a government run universal single payer system. it is s simple solution to me...
it isn't about the profits ... there are janitors, MA's, nurses, office workers etc that make their living working for insurance companies and HMO's... I realize since it isn't you who will be losing their job because of all the sweeping wide changes you want made you don't care, but it is a real concern for some people. tons of people will lose their jobs...I realize it sucks that some people have to actually pay for their healthcare because their insurance doesn't cover stuff, I am currently figuring out how to pay for a 3 week hospital stay for my baby that about only half of which is covered...but all I can do is pay for the care she received. It isn't going to be easy, I probably will have to do things I don't want to, but that is what I have to do. Universal health care on a single payer system is a great idea, I love it, but I just don't see how we can do it without causing a lot of harm to a lot of people. You focus on CEO salaries, not the actual employees of the company, it isn't like the CEO is answering the phones!
I agree that our system sucks, but you cannot just scrap it over night, you are taking away the livelihood of a lot of people and that needs to be figured out. You cannot say tough luck to some and have your hand out for others, it doesn't make sense.
i believe you misunderstood my post. i said those for profit companies could stay in business if they were NON-profit. meaning cover their overhead and pay their employees, janitors, secretaries, etc, and that is it. no profits, not massive ceo pay, none of that. if they were really interested in doing the noble thing and paying for the things they are supposed to pay for then that is how they would operate. but instead they are corporate whores with shareholders that they have to satisfy. you say it can not be done, i say it can, and for the good of our country and the citizens of our country it will be done like that. otherwise we will be stuck with the same broken down inefficient chitty system we have now where profits matter more than customers...
you are right, I did misunderstand your post.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You don't know what you are tlaking about...You can't compare how things will work with such a population difference. Trains and trolly transit work very well over there, but if we tried to implement that into US it would never work.
Reasons why I don't think it will work.
Heidi, if you honestly care about our country and its healthcare system, please educate yourself about the issue and base your opinions, whatever they turn out to be, on facts.
1.The government has to tax some people to pay for medical subsidies offered to those it considers to be in need. So the first consequence is forced transfers of wealth from taxpayers to the clientele of programs like Medicare and Medicaid and this will inflate the demand for health care services. Offering free or heavily subsidized care is inevitably going to increase overall the use of the health care system.
A) You already subsidize the healthcare of others through your private health insurance plan.
You already pay for Medicare and Medicaid.
C) We already pay for national health insurance - we're just not getting it. 60% of health spending in this country is already publicly financed. We pay the world's highest healthcare taxes. We spend more tax money per capita than the total (public AND private) health care expenditures of countries that provide healthcare to everyone. There is absolutely no reason why we can't already afford to pay for healthcare for everyone under a better system.
D) Aside from the "transfer of wealth" you are already agreeing to, there would be no transfer of wealth under a national health plan. You would pay the same amount as you do now (maybe less). You would just pay it to the government instead of to the for-profit insurance companies, thereby spending more of your dollar on direct services instead of transferring your wealth to corporate profits.
E) People without health insurance already use the healthcare system - they just have to wait until they need emergency medical care. Emergency care is more costly than preventative care and has worse health outcomes.
2.Everyone that paying taxes pays the higher prices caused by the inflation of demand for medical services, that with the increased costs of regulation and paperwork, as people are priced out of the system, they are forced into managed care systems that limit their choices of doctors/care
A) Please see #1 for info about how increased demand for medical services would not increase healthcare spending under a single-payer system.
A single-payer system would DECREASE, not increase, the cost of regulation and paperwork. Private health insurance spends a much higher percentage of money on overhead than public insurance. For instance, overhead for private insurers in the U.S. is 12%, compared with 4% for Medicare and 1% for Canada's single-payer system.
C) I don't know what you mean about people being priced out of the system and forced into managed care systems. We are already forced into managed care systems.
D) Our choices are already limited under this system and would be LESS limited under a universal system. Right now nearly half of employees have NO choice whatsoever in their insurance companies and 3/4 of them are forced to change plans involuntarily. It's the current private system that limits our choice of doctors.
3. The Doc's and Physicans are no longer working for you, they are working for the GOV.
That is absolutely, straight-up incorrect. Doctors would NOT be working for the government. The health care DELIVERY system would still be private - only the healthcare PAYMENT system would be public.
What loss of freedom?? We would be MORE free to choose where to go for healthcare. We would be MORE free to be healthy. We would NOT be paying any more money than we're already paying. Under a national health plan, there would not be any loss of freedom.
Criticism: Universal healthcare is okay for a small country or organization like Switzerland, Canada, or the Veterans Administration, but it wouldn’t work when scaled up to meet the needs of a large country like the US.
Response: Medicare is a national program that works reasonably well. There is no reason whatsoever that would make it hard to scale up. Indeed, Medicare was initiated (and administered for tens of millions of enrollees) before computers became available - scaling it up 7 or 8 fold should not prove difficult.
In Canada, health care is administered at the provincial level. The Ontario Health Insurance Program, which includes the city of Toronto as well as rural areas, is a good example. Since much of the program we envision would be regionalized, with regions similar in size to Ontario, that program seems a sound indication that scale should not be problematic.
Comments
Yes people can obtain an education but not all are given the same opportunities to access that education. I am a high school teacher and you keep saying that everybody is given the same right to education .... no they are not. Many kids come from backgrounds where parents do not value education and the students are not given the support required for them to break through the poverty cycle. Yes a few do break out but not many.... I did..... It is fairly naive to assume that because people can go to school that they have the tools or the support that is required to be able to freely choose their paths in lives. If nobody will support or help you or your parent devalues your learning it is hard to get enough kudo to want to work hard enough to achieve even partial success. Teachers can only do so much... So quite often and not always, kids decisions are cut off from them, and the cycle of poverty (and in the US I am assuming a lack of health care) continues.
How does having bad parents mean they don't have the same access?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
...according to heidijam there are TONS of jobs in your country that lazy people just aren't taking advantage of!
Having their next fix or finding the new boyfriend was more important than reading with their children or even getting them to school on time.
Also, its pretty obvious but if the parents can't break through the poverty cycle i'm pretty sure they can't pay for their children to attend university.
Like I said, how many high end jobs can you get with a high school diploma?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If parents do not value education, in most instances the kids will never be given the level of support that most successful learners require. If you are told there is no point, not many kids are grown up enough to look beyond it (some are but not many). The idea that equal educational opportunity is available to all is middle class bullshit to help the cashed up feel a little better about themselves.
I think all have equal access to primary/secondary school (whatever it is called in the US - up until end of high school) and education as there are schools and all children are expected to attend up to a certain age. Whether all children have an equal opportunity to take advantage of that access and benefit from it, that's a different story. This is where family situation/ethos, family finances, community, intellectual/physical capabilities come into play. Also, all schools are not equal insofar as quality of the school and the teachers and 'quality' of the pupils. Naturally, this also has a huge impact on what a child can hope to achieve. We all know, there are good schools and bad schools. Unfortunately, most 'bad' schools will usually have the pupils with less 'motivation' and support.
Further education is a competely different issue.
I know but my point is that a person's education in a capitalist system is usually directly linked to their capacity to earns an income and thus medical insurance.
I just hope we never do away with tax funded medicare and our pharmaceutical scheme in Australia. Life without that protection sounds terrible. :shock:
In general it is, yes. Stats prove that children from certain backgrounds do not fare as well as those from better off backgrounds and thus has an impact on their further education, future jobs and earnings.
As much as we would like it, we are not born equal and, whilst it's true one can always strive to change their 'path' and some are very successful at this, it is not always achievable (through no particular fault of their own).
It is to be noted also that a lot of 'successful' people from better backgrounds are not in the jobs they studied for/strived for and can't afford healthcare. I did see statistics about the number of people that are in jobs far below their level of achievement and it's shocking. One can have a great degree, but if there is no work in the field or at the required level, they flip burgers at some fast food place.
Redrock, you talk as if everything is really fine and dandy where you are. Isn't your country also in a huge recesion, racking up debt? Just asking.
Is that the impression you get? Why? I said our system has it flaws, etc., didn't I? I never spoke about our economy, did I? Note, we are not in a recession (yet!). Though, if you want to speak economy, don't you think that in times of mass cuts, redundancies, high unemployment etc. it is even more important to know that you are medically covered without having to resort to exhorbitant insurance premiums with limited cover?
I clearly understand that if the parent doesn't value education their kids likely will not either. Whose responsibility is that? I mean, we don't regulate who can and who can't have kids.
This is probably going to get the thread changed 180 degrees from the Health Care debate though so probably should stop.
it isn't about the profits ... there are janitors, MA's, nurses, office workers etc that make their living working for insurance companies and HMO's... I realize since it isn't you who will be losing their job because of all the sweeping wide changes you want made you don't care, but it is a real concern for some people. tons of people will lose their jobs...I realize it sucks that some people have to actually pay for their healthcare because their insurance doesn't cover stuff, I am currently figuring out how to pay for a 3 week hospital stay for my baby that about only half of which is covered...but all I can do is pay for the care she received. It isn't going to be easy, I probably will have to do things I don't want to, but that is what I have to do. Universal health care on a single payer system is a great idea, I love it, but I just don't see how we can do it without causing a lot of harm to a lot of people. You focus on CEO salaries, not the actual employees of the company, it isn't like the CEO is answering the phones!
I agree that our system sucks, but you cannot just scrap it over night, you are taking away the livelihood of a lot of people and that needs to be figured out. You cannot say tough luck to some and have your hand out for others, it doesn't make sense.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
This is such a copout. In this day and age, everyone can have the ability to learn things outside of what their parents teach them....or even have the ability to accept or reject what their parents teach them.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
A long time ago, we - society in general - threw up our hands and decided that we can't pay for healthcare unless we pay someone else to pay it for us (insurance).
That is simply not true. We are paying for healthcare now, but we're just doing it by remote control (payroll deductions through employers generally) and that's allowing other entities to make that process one in which it takes tons of money to participate. We've given up control of our money and our healthcare and this is the mess we got as a result of it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Answer: almost all of them.
You may not start out at 75K, but you can get there without a college degree. The degree basically gets your foot in the door in most business professions (with the exception of medical, etc.)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
But how long does it take to get to $75K? For some, maybe most, a long time.
I agree to a point. Parents have a huge role to play in their child's development. I don't think you can say it is a copout. Many, many people have kids (sometimes multiple kids) that never should. Ask any elementary school or junior high teacher about the parents of the students they teach. I guarantee you will hear some very disturbing trends. And, it will invoke in your a physical nausea when you hear about how poorly these teachers get paid.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Heidi, if you honestly care about our country and its healthcare system, please educate yourself about the issue and base your opinions, whatever they turn out to be, on facts.
A) You already subsidize the healthcare of others through your private health insurance plan.
C) We already pay for national health insurance - we're just not getting it. 60% of health spending in this country is already publicly financed. We pay the world's highest healthcare taxes. We spend more tax money per capita than the total (public AND private) health care expenditures of countries that provide healthcare to everyone. There is absolutely no reason why we can't already afford to pay for healthcare for everyone under a better system.
D) Aside from the "transfer of wealth" you are already agreeing to, there would be no transfer of wealth under a national health plan. You would pay the same amount as you do now (maybe less). You would just pay it to the government instead of to the for-profit insurance companies, thereby spending more of your dollar on direct services instead of transferring your wealth to corporate profits.
E) People without health insurance already use the healthcare system - they just have to wait until they need emergency medical care. Emergency care is more costly than preventative care and has worse health outcomes.
A) Please see #1 for info about how increased demand for medical services would not increase healthcare spending under a single-payer system.
C) I don't know what you mean about people being priced out of the system and forced into managed care systems. We are already forced into managed care systems.
D) Our choices are already limited under this system and would be LESS limited under a universal system. Right now nearly half of employees have NO choice whatsoever in their insurance companies and 3/4 of them are forced to change plans involuntarily. It's the current private system that limits our choice of doctors.
That is absolutely, straight-up incorrect. Doctors would NOT be working for the government. The health care DELIVERY system would still be private - only the healthcare PAYMENT system would be public.
What loss of freedom?? We would be MORE free to choose where to go for healthcare. We would be MORE free to be healthy. We would NOT be paying any more money than we're already paying. Under a national health plan, there would not be any loss of freedom.
Educate yourself, man! You could start by reading the Proposal of the Physicians' Working Group for Single-Payer National Health Insurance, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2003. (Don't you think you should actually read the plan before criticizing it?) You can also easily learn that your criticisms are pure myth by visiting the website of Physicians for a National Health Plan. Here's what they have to say about generalizability, by the way:
Criticism: Universal healthcare is okay for a small country or organization like Switzerland, Canada, or the Veterans Administration, but it wouldn’t work when scaled up to meet the needs of a large country like the US.
Response: Medicare is a national program that works reasonably well. There is no reason whatsoever that would make it hard to scale up. Indeed, Medicare was initiated (and administered for tens of millions of enrollees) before computers became available - scaling it up 7 or 8 fold should not prove difficult.
In Canada, health care is administered at the provincial level. The Ontario Health Insurance Program, which includes the city of Toronto as well as rural areas, is a good example. Since much of the program we envision would be regionalized, with regions similar in size to Ontario, that program seems a sound indication that scale should not be problematic.