do humans have value?

Blockhead · June 2010

ed243421 wrote:

heidi

to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

ed243421 · June 2010

HeidiJam wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

heidi

to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

i think your brain has already stopped

Godfather. · June 2010

first act of violence, game on !

Godfather.

redrock · June 2010

HeidiJam wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

heidi

to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

That is what you think death is. Obviously the physical side of death is the same for everyone, but the rest isn't. And what was it before you were born? Or do you mean before you were conceived? At what point? Maybe this belongs in the philosophy thread.

Blockhead · June 2010

ed243421 wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

heidi

to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

i think your brain has already stopped

I guess insults are your way of communicating? Why don't you prove what i said that was wrong then?

ed243421 · June 2010

so if you are right

than you know what will happen when you die

wow

i guess i was wrong

Blockhead · June 2010

FiveB247x wrote:

Just did a 2 second search and found tons of stuff on this. I rather enjoyed this one:
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shortsharpscience/2008/08/do-animals-understand-death-do-humans.html

Also, because humans invented a way to not be hunter/gatherers, it has also created all the methods in which we kill and discriminate against one another... so I wouldn't necessarily marvel over those accomplishments. A Wallmart isn't a sign of growth, it's a sign of economics transcending comfort and accessibility, but if you correlate it the same idea that we use these things to stock pile and take more than is necessary when others suffer as a result, I highly call it anything redeemable in a positive humanistic trait.

Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.

Blockhead · June 2010

ed243421 wrote:

so if you are right

than you know what will happen when you die

wow

i guess i was wrong

Is there something I said that was incorrect? I belive its common knowlegde that the brain ceases to function when you are dead. That was all i said.

_ · June 2010

dpmay wrote:

scb wrote:

I used to have a friend who was mentally retarded. He died due to hospital negligence. His mother sued. The defendants argued that, because he was mentally retarded, his life was less valuable than the life of normal adults. :(

that's totally fucked up. i am sorry to hear that story.

usually when people argue someone has less value than others, it's because of something the person has done. like as if the person can forfeit their own value...

I think a lot of times it has to do with their supposed future earning capacity. (This guy worked, but only for minimum wage.) Of course, after I gave my deposition about what a great friend he was (they asked me to be a character witness) and I accidentally started crying, they settled. And this had nothing to do with his future earning capacity.

Again, it's all relative. And I think what it's often relative to is the (financial) interests of the person assessing value.

FiveB247x · June 2010

Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.

HeidiJam wrote:

Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.

_ · June 2010

HeidiJam wrote:

this is part of our evolution and progress

Woo...
I'm ahead, I'm a man
I'm the first mammal to wear pants, yeah
I'm at peace with my lust
I can kill 'cause in God I trust, yeah
It's evolution, baby

I'm at peace, I'm the man
Buying stocks on the day of the crash
On the loose, I'm a truck
All the rolling hills, I'll flatten 'em out, yeah
It's herd behavior, uh huh
It's evolution, baby

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my son, he's my clone
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
This land is mine, this land is free
I'll do what I want but irresponsibly
It's evolution, baby

I'm a thief, I'm a liar
There's my church, I sing in the choir:
(hallelujah, hallelujah)

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my son, admire my clones
'Cause we know, appetite for a nightly feast
Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
Nothin', why?
Because... it's evolution, baby!

I am ahead, I am advanced
I am the first mammal to make plans, yeah
I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher
2010, watch it go to fire
It's evolution, baby
Do the evolution
Come on, come on, come on

Blockhead · June 2010

FiveB247x wrote:

Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.

You are describing issues in mankinds society and trying to identify it with an animals society who's whole purpose is to survive, you can't compare an animals primitive society to ours.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun · June 2010

if i die the world will be about 1/9000000000 less for it. i'd say we arent very valuable

_ · June 2010

HeidiJam wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

so if you are right

than you know what will happen when you die

wow

i guess i was wrong

Is there something I said that was incorrect? I belive its common knowlegde that the brain ceases to function when you are dead. That was all i said.

But it's not common knowledge that you "will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born." In fact, it's one of the big mysteries of humanity, so I don't know how you can state it as fact.

I'm also quite surprised to hear you deny that animals understand death. Part of our "evolution" as humans is that we are able to have bodies of knowledge about the natural world, and I believe this is pretty well common knowledge at this point. If animals don't express their understanding of death in a way that you can understand or relate to, well that's your inability.

Also, evolution (i.e. being able to do/know more, etc.) is not synonymous with progress (i.e. being better than we were previously).

mikepegg44 · June 2010

FiveB247x wrote:

Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.

HeidiJam wrote:

Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.

the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

FiveB247x · June 2010

To cut to the heart of this matter, humans don't "thin the heard" where animals do, but humans do a million and one awful, inhumane things to subjugate and dismiss poor treatment of one another... so which do you accept? Hypocrisy of humans or animals who have a set system of life?

mikepegg44 wrote:

the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

Godfather. · June 2010

mikepegg44 wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.

HeidiJam wrote:

Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.

the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

the voice of reason,thank you !

Godfather.

_ · June 2010

mikepegg44 wrote:

the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

I could be wrong, but I thought the original point was that animals don't destroy the environment like humans do. (If that wasn't the original point, then it's my point.)

FiveB247x · June 2010

Just saw this portion now.

In every circumstance you list, animals do these things for survival and mating purposes. The entire life cycle is set to carry forward genetics, life and maintain the balance. Where exactly in human existence is anything remotely like this? Absolutely no where. Animals have good reason for these brutish things we take out of context, can you say the same of humans? Not without making a ton of concessions and using excuses to do so.

mikepegg44 wrote:

edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

mikepegg44 · June 2010

scb wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

I could be wrong, but I thought the original point was that animals don't destroy the environment like humans do. (If that wasn't the original point, then it's my point.)

wild boars

do humans have value?

Comments

Categories