Statically perhaps you are correct, but things like war, famine, poverty, curable diseases and sickness, environmental damage which has human repercussions and the many other areas of human civilization which we deem acceptable are all forms in which we tolerate to better a percentage of us and leave the rest behind. So as far as emotions and in general the human care for it's fellow man, it's not too high on the scale of "value" and "morality". We simply accept these things as normal practice and life and don't take them for what they are, selfishness, greed and inhumane practices tolerated by humans which are justified in our minds, but not so much in the big picture.
It seems as if you don't understand that what you listed is part of our nature.
Is there anything we do or could do that you wouldn't claim is just part of our nature?
Statically perhaps you are correct, but things like war, famine, poverty, curable diseases and sickness, environmental damage which has human repercussions and the many other areas of human civilization which we deem acceptable are all forms in which we tolerate to better a percentage of us and leave the rest behind. So as far as emotions and in general the human care for it's fellow man, it's not too high on the scale of "value" and "morality". We simply accept these things as normal practice and life and don't take them for what they are, selfishness, greed and inhumane practices tolerated by humans which are justified in our minds, but not so much in the big picture.
It seems as if you don't understand that what you listed is part of our nature.
Is there anything we do or could do that you wouldn't claim is just part of our nature?
i think perhaps we should have said in our culture, humans dont really have a symbiotic relationship with their mothership. we take what want and fuck the consequences.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i think perhaps we should have said in our culture, humans dont really have a symbiotic relationship with their mothership. we take what want and fuck the consequences.
When in reality....
It would would be a much nicer world....If it were....
"We take what we want and fuck"
And just leave it at that.......
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I believe human intelligence (nature) brings about selfishness. Selfishness is seen these days as a derogatory characteristic. But selfishness is essentially anything that benefits the individual...and selfishness is the source of survival. Selfishness can be taken to extremes (when "wants" begin to be confused for "needs") and ultimately an individual can want something bad enough that they believe they need it to survive...which can end in killing.
But, ultimately, when selfishness leads us to do things like destroy the environment, it's not even in our own best interest.
“Only after the last tree has been cut down.
Only after the last river has been poisoned.
Only after the last fish has been caught.
Only then will you find that
money cannot be eaten”.
I do not nor never complain about someone's right to believe what they want, but you state it such a concrete and almost insulting manner, so that's why I comment about it. Absolute truths are neither absolute nor true
Godfather.
ooh, HERE is an interesting question. is there absoulte truth? if all things have value, is the value real? is mount everest REALLY the tallest mountain, or is it just perception?
read it and find out brother, I am not a perfect person by any means but I have accepted God into my heart and I try to be the best person that I can be, I pray almost every day and ask questions and most times with God in your heart you'll find answers aside from that it's the best history book in the world, but if you ask just to stirr up crap please don't, what is your faith ?
Godfather.
I believe Jesus Christ died for our sins .... Your far from perfect....
I just don't understand people like you .. people like unsung...or Ariel... How can you and I be Christians yet be so different....... If you really love God, then why don't you allow him in your life .... pray for knowledge, for peace, strength, for your common man, etc..etc... I have very conservative relatives and I don't understand them either....we both love the same God, but one takes extreme positions and the other asks himself what would Jesus do? If you do read the bible and believe Jesus to be your savior ask yourself that question when making judgments or taking positions.... Don't put your country or anything before God....put your brothers/sisters and God before anything....make that sacrifice and you should be able to figure out right from wrong.... There is more to life then right and left...
good point, for christians and not christians alike. but we should i think all TRY to understand each other a little better...
I do not nor never complain about someone's right to believe what they want, but you state it such a concrete and almost insulting manner, so that's why I comment about it. Absolute truths are neither absolute nor true
ooh, HERE is an interesting question. is there absoulte truth? if all things have value, is the value real? is mount everest REALLY the tallest mountain, or is it just perception?
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Yes... Absolute truths are out there... 1+1=2 is an undisputable truth. I will die someday... is another truth.
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Religions deal in faith and belief... neither are truths. They are relative (or subjective) truths... but, not absolute truths.
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And yes... Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on planet Earth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Yes... Absolute truths are out there... 1+1=2 is an undisputable truth. I will die someday... is another truth.
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Religions deal in faith and belief... neither are truths. They are relative (or subjective) truths... but, not absolute truths.
...
And yes... Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on planet Earth.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Cosmo it's all perception and perspective. Nothing in the world is exact and perfect, science has taught us that.
Also, wasn't it discovered that larger mountains are around but solely under the Atlantic ocean (mid-atlantic ridge)?
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No... we are not talking about perspective in regards to 1+1=2.
If I were to say, "1+1=2 is a true statement"... there is no arguement against that. That is an absolute truth.
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But, regarding your statement of perspective and perception... I guess it all depends on what definition you use to define the term, 'mountain', to be.
So... my statement would have to be, 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0' to make it an absolute truthful statement.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
No... we are not talking about perspective in regards to 1+1=2.
If I were to say, "1+1=2 is a true statement"... there is no arguement against that. That is an absolute truth.
I don't know.... I think there could be an argument against such a simple, non-qualified statement. If you and I define any of the variables differently, the equation could possibly cease to be true - or at least could have different meaning to each of us.
No... we are not talking about perspective in regards to 1+1=2.
If I were to say, "1+1=2 is a true statement"... there is no arguement against that. That is an absolute truth.
I don't know.... I think there could be an argument against such a simple, non-qualified statement. If you and I define any of the variables differently, the equation could possibly cease to be true - or at least could have different meaning to each of us.
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There are no variables in the fully qualified statement... 1 is defined as the number (integer) 1 and noted as such. The notation is universally defined in the language of mathematics as plus (+) for addition, equal (=) for equals. So...
1+1=2 is the truth, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. It is an absolute.
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That is a benchmark on what is absolute truth... versus relative truth.
For example... I may firmly believe that my cat can predict the coming winter. If her fur starts to come in thick, we are headed towards a colder than normal winter. If her fur comes in lighter... we are in for a fairer winter. I may believe this with all my heart... because I have personally witnessed this has come to be true for the past 6 winters... it does not make it true. Maybe true from my perspective (which is a realtive truth that only applies to me), but not the absolute truth that applies to the entire Universe.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not a mathematician so I can't digress any further but instinctively I believe nothing is absolute. Math is something we prove, but in some sense, it's something we have in balance and order, cause we made it up to equate things in life and the world.
And in regards to Mt. Everest, this isn't an absolute either. Sizes of earths features change all the time due to Plate-tectonics. So your current statement is correct, but at some future point it will not be.. whether do to erosion, eruptions, sea levels, or current rising mountains surpassing it. It may not be anytime soon, but it is true. It is not absolute.
No... we are not talking about perspective in regards to 1+1=2.
If I were to say, "1+1=2 is a true statement"... there is no arguement against that. That is an absolute truth.
I don't know.... I think there could be an argument against such a simple, non-qualified statement. If you and I define any of the variables differently, the equation could possibly cease to be true - or at least could have different meaning to each of us.
...
There are no variables in the fully qualified statement... 1 is defined as the number (integer) 1 and noted as such. The notation is universally defined in the language of mathematics as plus (+) for addition, equal (=) for equals. So...
1+1=2 is the truth, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. It is an absolute.
...
That is a benchmark on what is absolute truth... versus relative truth.
For example... I may firmly believe that my cat can predict the coming winter. If her fur starts to come in thick, we are headed towards a colder than normal winter. If her fur comes in lighter... we are in for a fairer winter. I may believe this with all my heart... because I have personally witnessed this has come to be true for the past 6 winters... it does not make it true. Maybe true from my perspective (which is a realtive truth that only applies to me), but not the absolute truth that applies to the entire Universe.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm not a mathematician so I can't digress any further but instinctively I believe nothing is absolute. Math is something we prove, but in some sense, it's something we have in balance and order, cause we made it up to equate things in life and the world.
And in regards to Mt. Everest, this isn't an absolute either. Sizes of earths features change all the time due to Plate-tectonics. So your current statement is correct, but at some future point it will not be.. whether do to erosion, eruptions, sea levels, or current rising mountains surpassing it. It may not be anytime soon, but it is true. It is not absolute.
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A. Explain to me how and why the statement, "1+1=2 is true"... is a false statement.
B. 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0... at this time, 17June2010, 6:20:13 PDT.'
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying it's not correct necessary, but math is something we invented. It's something man-made and in many respects it's artificial and contrived. So of course it's going to come out correct as extremely close to it. Time is an example of that - even if by a fraction of a second, the time it takes for the earth's rotation around the around varies from year to year. We don't really acknowledge it, but the reality is that it's not absolute. And the main reason is because it suits our purposes to have a set frame of measurements of time, length and similar to compare, contrast and put things in perspective. So yes 1+1=2, but in a philosophical sense, it means very little, it's just ways and means that we humans designate things to our liking. And just as we invented it, it will go back to being meaningless and irrelevant to anything else just as it was before we were here and after we we're gone.
And your Mt. Everest statement is currently correct, but will change, so it is not absolute. Absolute is forever. The only thing people in our world truly believe is absolute are some basic scientific principles. I know am contradicting myself here a bit and can admit as much. I actually found this article online and it's quite interesting even though I disagree and it undermines what I've said..haha. I guess I just fully believe everything in life is elastic and ever-changing. http://www.gotquestions.org/absolute-truth.html
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A. Explain to me how and why the statement, "1+1=2 is true"... is a false statement.
B. 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0... at this time, 17June2010, 6:20:13 PDT.'
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm not saying it's not correct necessary, but math is something we invented. It's something man-made and in many respects it's artificial and contrived. So of course it's going to come out correct as extremely close to it. Time is an example of that - even if by a fraction of a second, the time it takes for the earth's rotation around the around varies from year to year. We don't really acknowledge it, but the reality is that it's not absolute. And the main reason is because it suits our purposes to have a set frame of measurements of time, length and similar to compare, contrast and put things in perspective. So yes 1+1=2, but in a philosophical sense, it means very little, it's just ways and means that we humans designate things to our liking. And just as we invented it, it will go back to being meaningless and irrelevant to anything else just as it was before we were here and after we we're gone.
And your Mt. Everest statement is currently correct, but will change, so it is not absolute. Absolute is forever. The only thing people in our world truly believe is absolute are some basic scientific principles. I know am contradicting myself here a bit and can admit as much. I actually found this article online and it's quite interesting even though I disagree and it undermines what I've said..haha. I guess I just fully believe everything in life is elastic and ever-changing. http://www.gotquestions.org/absolute-truth.html
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A. Explain to me how and why the statement, "1+1=2 is true"... is a false statement.
B. 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0... at this time, 17June2010, 6:20:13 PDT.'
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Man did not invent mathematics. Math exists, even if we do not. Three dinosaurs are walking in the field... one gets eaten... now, there are 2. Whether we are there to count them or not, the truth remains.
Same thing with time... time exists without the existance on Man... or even without the existance of the Earth and the Sun. Even is everything in the Universe were to die... the clock would continue to run, counting out the seconds where nothing exists. Let me clarify... time exists in the space you occupy... even if you are not there.
That whole thing about, "if a tree falls in the woods..." thing... it places too much emphasis on Mankind and our importance in the Natural World and surrounding Universe. We may think we are the shits... truth is, we ain't shit.
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Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
We'll I'm glad we got down to the heart of the issue and we're simply on opposite sides of the fence. Things exist well beyond us (we're in agreement on that), but math, time - basically the tools we implement to decipher them as for our benefit, it's not as if some other life form (alien or amoeba) would count the same or measure in the same terms and limits as we do. So if you asked me, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, I would say no... you say yes.
Man did not invent mathematics. Math exists, even if we do not. Three dinosaurs are walking in the field... one gets eaten... now, there are 2. Whether we are there to count them or not, the truth remains.Same thing with time... time exists without the existance on Man... or even without the existance of the Earth and the Sun. Even is everything in the Universe were to die... the clock would continue to run, counting out the seconds where nothing exists.
That whole thing about, "if a tree falls in the woods..." thing... it places too much emphasis on Mankind and our importance in the Natural World and surrounding Universe. We may think we are the shits... truth is, we ain't shit....
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
This is a good debate... I am enjoying it very much. I understand exactly what you are saying... and you present your point in clearly defined logical thought. Much easier than agruing with people trying to convince them that Mexicans are humans and the lack of possession of a piece of paper does not make them rodents.
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Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
And I agree with everything you stated below... but if there's nuclear war on earth and all that's left is insects (for example). All of the measurements we use to measure and decipher time, distance, etc are all irrelevant.
Anyways, I forgot the point of our discussion and topic... but it was nice speaking with you bout all this stuff. Beats calling one another tools and similar.
This is a good debate... I am enjoying it very much. I understand exactly what you are saying... and you present your point in clearly defined logical thought. Much easier than agruing with people trying to convince them that Mexicans are humans and the lack of possession of a piece of paper does not make them rodents.
...
Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I tend to agree that absolute truths exist. But I think our knowledge of them can be subject to perspective & our expressions of them can be subject to interpretation.
For instance, your 1 may be 1.000... but mine may be 1.0001. Do my 1 plus your 1 equal the same 2?
Or, 1.5 may be 1 to you and 2 to me. (Yes, we generally all agree to round up in this situation, but that agreement is man made, not absolute.) So you would say that this number plus itself equals 2 and I would say it equals 4, but really it equals 3 - until we move to the next decimal place and the next, which are infinite in number (and therefore in possible interpretations). I'm sure you've seen this in math or physics or epidemiology classes, where each person doing a calculation gets a different result but they are all right.
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Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
Time, numbers, maths, etc. are all conventions decided by man to be able to try and make sense of the world around them and organise themselves in relation to this world. Time... a day... based on the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis (moons for the ancient people); a year.. based on the time it takes for the earth to orbit the sun (though some early 'calenders' were different). Maths/numbers - 2+2=4. That's what man eventually decided. Numbers were not always there just like language as we know it was not always there. Again, conventions to be able to organise and communicate.
All these are 'later' concepts. And, depending on how man saw these at the time, they could have been very different!
That whole thing about, "if a tree falls in the woods..." thing... it places too much emphasis on Mankind and our importance in the Natural World and surrounding Universe. We may think we are the shits... truth is, we ain't shit.
...
depends on the way you look at it... ive always answered, of course, to the if a tree falls.. question . why wouldnt it??
im a god... not the god.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
Time, numbers, maths, etc. are all conventions decided by man to be able to try and make sense of the world around them and organise themselves in relation to this world. Time... a day... based on the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis (moons for the ancient people); a year.. based on the time it takes for the earth to orbit the sun (though some early 'calenders' were different). Maths/numbers - 2+2=4. That's what man eventually decided. Numbers were not always there just like language as we know it was not always there. Again, conventions to be able to organise and communicate.
All these are 'later' concepts. And, depending on how man saw these at the time, they could have been very different!
...
No... time and math exist with or without us. I think people get hung up on the manner in which we define time. Time is a linear reality that is dependent on where you are in space.
True, we dechipher time based upon the cycles of our home planet. Does this mean time does not exist on other planets... in other solar systems... in other galaxies? It does exist, and we apply our units of measure to the other planets... to the other celestrial bodies. Jupiters days are measures in time, relative to Earth days... distances are measured in light years.
For example... let's pretend the Big Bang was a factual event. From the point of origin, matter has been hurtling through space, away from the point of origin... right. Time passes as the objects move away. We may measure the relative to our own interpretation of time, but, there is a period of time that elapsed from moment the bits of matter that formed our planet left the point of origin of the Big Bang, to it's present location, here on this planet. Time, by what ever measurement is used, moves on.
Same thing with math... SCB proposed that the two of us have different interpretations of the same thing, 1.0000 or 1.0001. I'm saying that the 1, stated in the 1+1=2 equation is just that, the whole number 1. Like 1 dinosaur, because you cannot have 1.0001 dinosaurs. That simple statement, 1+1=2 is an elegant and simple truth.
So, absolute truths do exist. It is when we claim absolute truth in man made concepts, such as religion, that the thing falls apart. The absolute truth about God? The absolute truth is, "we don't know". We can't prove or disprove whether God exists or not. And using the arguement that not being able to prove God exists must mean He does not exist (and vice versa) is a false claim. The Truth is... we don't know.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
Time, numbers, maths, etc. are all conventions decided by man to be able to try and make sense of the world around them and organise themselves in relation to this world. Time... a day... based on the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis (moons for the ancient people); a year.. based on the time it takes for the earth to orbit the sun (though some early 'calenders' were different). Maths/numbers - 2+2=4. That's what man eventually decided. Numbers were not always there just like language as we know it was not always there. Again, conventions to be able to organise and communicate.
All these are 'later' concepts. And, depending on how man saw these at the time, they could have been very different!
...
No... time and math exist with or without us. I think people get hung up on the manner in which we define time. Time is a linear reality that is dependent on where you are in space.
True, we dechipher time based upon the cycles of our home planet. Does this mean time does not exist on other planets... in other solar systems... in other galaxies? It does exist, and we apply our units of measure to the other planets... to the other celestrial bodies. Jupiters days are measures in time, relative to Earth days... distances are measured in light years.
For example... let's pretend the Big Bang was a factual event. From the point of origin, matter has been hurtling through space, away from the point of origin... right. Time passes as the objects move away. We may measure the relative to our own interpretation of time, but, there is a period of time that elapsed from moment the bits of matter that formed our planet left the point of origin of the Big Bang, to it's present location, here on this planet. Time, by what ever measurement is used, moves on.
Same thing with math... SCB proposed that the two of us have different interpretations of the same thing, 1.0000 or 1.0001. I'm saying that the 1, stated in the 1+1=2 equation is just that, the whole number 1. Like 1 dinosaur, because you cannot have 1.0001 dinosaurs. That simple statement, 1+1=2 is an elegant and simple truth.
So, absolute truths do exist. It is when we claim absolute truth in man made concepts, such as religion, that the thing falls apart. The absolute truth about God? The absolute truth is, "we don't know". We can't prove or disprove whether God exists or not. And using the arguement that not being able to prove God exists must mean He does not exist (and vice versa) is a false claim. The Truth is... we don't know.
i agree time exists without us.and always has. however being the only creature that uses math, im gonna say without us it wouldnt exist. i doubt the lion king thinks wow! i bagged me 3 impalas today.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i agree time exists without us.and always has. however being the only creature that uses math, im gonna say without us it wouldnt exist. i doubt the lion king thinks wow! i bagged me 3 impalas today.
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I understand what you are saying... but, even if the lion does not understand the concept of math... the fact is.. if he bagged 3 Impalas... he bagged 3 Impalas. The lion does not use math... but, 3 Impalas equals 3 Impalas. Math exists, when when the subject is oblivious of its existance.
There are probably more examples of absolute truths than time and math... death, for example. Death is an absolute certainty for all living creatures. From paramecium to complex forms, such as humans and whales... we are all going to die. Even the great Sequoias are going to eventually die. The statement, "Death is a fact of life" is an absolute truth, when death is defined as the end of physical life sustaining functions.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i agree time exists without us.and always has. however being the only creature that uses math, im gonna say without us it wouldnt exist. i doubt the lion king thinks wow! i bagged me 3 impalas today.
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I understand what you are saying... but, even if the lion does not understand the concept of math... the fact is.. if he bagged 3 Impalas... he bagged 3 Impalas. The lion does not use math... but, 3 Impalas equals 3 Impalas. Math exists, when when the subject is oblivious of its existance.
There are probably more examples of absolute truths than time and math... death, for example. Death is an absolute certainty for all living creatures. From paramecium to complex forms, such as humans and whales... we are all going to die. Even the great Sequoias are going to eventually die. The statement, "Death is a fact of life" is an absolute truth, when death is defined as the end of physical life sustaining functions.
im just saying that without us there is no concept of maths. there is no one around to count the impala therefore counting does not exist.
and yes death is an absolute. however none of us can even be sure of that cause none of us has died and come back to speak of it. i think of death as a transition from one form to another. when we die we are returned to the earth. i guess it depends of your concept of death.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Cosmo - Again, I see your point and agree that absolute truth does exist. But I still think we cannot understnd these truths independent from the lens of our own perspectives & contructs. So all "knowledge" that we think is objective is really part objective truth & part subective perspective. We understand the world through language (including math) & shared definitions, which I think you recognize since you've included definitions of 1 & death in your statements. But as soon as someone has a different notion of death, your statement ceases to to true. I think maybe a better question than Does absolute truth exist? would be Does objective knowledge of absolute truth exist?
I tend to agree that absolute truths exist. But I think our knowledge of them can be subject to perspective & our expressions of them can be subject to interpretation.
For instance, your 1 may be 1.000... but mine may be 1.0001. Do my 1 plus your 1 equal the same 2?
Or, 1.5 may be 1 to you and 2 to me. (Yes, we generally all agree to round up in this situation, but that agreement is man made, not absolute.) So you would say that this number plus itself equals 2 and I would say it equals 4, but really it equals 3 - until we move to the next decimal place and the next, which are infinite in number (and therefore in possible interpretations). I'm sure you've seen this in math or physics or epidemiology classes, where each person doing a calculation gets a different result but they are all right.
I think I am in agreement with Five. The only absolute truths that exists are the truths of logic, which are tautological and - in a way - banal. Then there are the truths "for us." Which are the really hard-earned and important ones.
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
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Is there anything we do or could do that you wouldn't claim is just part of our nature?
i think perhaps we should have said in our culture, humans dont really have a symbiotic relationship with their mothership. we take what want and fuck the consequences.
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It would would be a much nicer world....If it were....
"We take what we want and fuck"
And just leave it at that.......
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
But, ultimately, when selfishness leads us to do things like destroy the environment, it's not even in our own best interest.
“Only after the last tree has been cut down.
Only after the last river has been poisoned.
Only after the last fish has been caught.
Only then will you find that
money cannot be eaten”.
ooh, HERE is an interesting question. is there absoulte truth? if all things have value, is the value real? is mount everest REALLY the tallest mountain, or is it just perception?
good point, for christians and not christians alike. but we should i think all TRY to understand each other a little better...
Yes... Absolute truths are out there... 1+1=2 is an undisputable truth. I will die someday... is another truth.
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Religions deal in faith and belief... neither are truths. They are relative (or subjective) truths... but, not absolute truths.
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And yes... Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on planet Earth.
Hail, Hail!!!
Also, wasn't it discovered that larger mountains are around but solely under the Atlantic ocean (mid-atlantic ridge)?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
No... we are not talking about perspective in regards to 1+1=2.
If I were to say, "1+1=2 is a true statement"... there is no arguement against that. That is an absolute truth.
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But, regarding your statement of perspective and perception... I guess it all depends on what definition you use to define the term, 'mountain', to be.
So... my statement would have to be, 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0' to make it an absolute truthful statement.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't know.... I think there could be an argument against such a simple, non-qualified statement. If you and I define any of the variables differently, the equation could possibly cease to be true - or at least could have different meaning to each of us.
There are no variables in the fully qualified statement... 1 is defined as the number (integer) 1 and noted as such. The notation is universally defined in the language of mathematics as plus (+) for addition, equal (=) for equals. So...
1+1=2 is the truth, no matter how anyone tries to spin it. It is an absolute.
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That is a benchmark on what is absolute truth... versus relative truth.
For example... I may firmly believe that my cat can predict the coming winter. If her fur starts to come in thick, we are headed towards a colder than normal winter. If her fur comes in lighter... we are in for a fairer winter. I may believe this with all my heart... because I have personally witnessed this has come to be true for the past 6 winters... it does not make it true. Maybe true from my perspective (which is a realtive truth that only applies to me), but not the absolute truth that applies to the entire Universe.
Hail, Hail!!!
And in regards to Mt. Everest, this isn't an absolute either. Sizes of earths features change all the time due to Plate-tectonics. So your current statement is correct, but at some future point it will not be.. whether do to erosion, eruptions, sea levels, or current rising mountains surpassing it. It may not be anytime soon, but it is true. It is not absolute.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
A. Explain to me how and why the statement, "1+1=2 is true"... is a false statement.
B. 'Mount Everest is the highest mountain peak on the surface of the planet Earth when using elevation as the scale, with sea level defined as 0... at this time, 17June2010, 6:20:13 PDT.'
Hail, Hail!!!
And your Mt. Everest statement is currently correct, but will change, so it is not absolute. Absolute is forever. The only thing people in our world truly believe is absolute are some basic scientific principles. I know am contradicting myself here a bit and can admit as much. I actually found this article online and it's quite interesting even though I disagree and it undermines what I've said..haha. I guess I just fully believe everything in life is elastic and ever-changing. http://www.gotquestions.org/absolute-truth.html
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Man did not invent mathematics. Math exists, even if we do not. Three dinosaurs are walking in the field... one gets eaten... now, there are 2. Whether we are there to count them or not, the truth remains.
Same thing with time... time exists without the existance on Man... or even without the existance of the Earth and the Sun. Even is everything in the Universe were to die... the clock would continue to run, counting out the seconds where nothing exists. Let me clarify... time exists in the space you occupy... even if you are not there.
That whole thing about, "if a tree falls in the woods..." thing... it places too much emphasis on Mankind and our importance in the Natural World and surrounding Universe. We may think we are the shits... truth is, we ain't shit.
...
Hail, Hail!!!
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
...
Now... back to time. Time is applied to my cat. She has no concept of clocks or calendars. But, time is still applied to her life. She may not be aware of it... but the clock is runnig on her life, too. She may be aware of daytime/night time, but no awareness of the number of days. Her's is just right here, right now.
But, just because she is unaware of time... does not mean time is not counting down her remaining days.
The same thing for math... even if she is unaware of the concept of numbers... does not mean numbers do not exist. I gve her 2 cat treats.. she eats two of them... there are no more for her to eat. The reality and truth in thae math is there... she just doesn't know it.
Hail, Hail!!!
And I agree with everything you stated below... but if there's nuclear war on earth and all that's left is insects (for example). All of the measurements we use to measure and decipher time, distance, etc are all irrelevant.
Anyways, I forgot the point of our discussion and topic... but it was nice speaking with you bout all this stuff. Beats calling one another tools and similar.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
For instance, your 1 may be 1.000... but mine may be 1.0001. Do my 1 plus your 1 equal the same 2?
Or, 1.5 may be 1 to you and 2 to me. (Yes, we generally all agree to round up in this situation, but that agreement is man made, not absolute.) So you would say that this number plus itself equals 2 and I would say it equals 4, but really it equals 3 - until we move to the next decimal place and the next, which are infinite in number (and therefore in possible interpretations). I'm sure you've seen this in math or physics or epidemiology classes, where each person doing a calculation gets a different result but they are all right.
Time, numbers, maths, etc. are all conventions decided by man to be able to try and make sense of the world around them and organise themselves in relation to this world. Time... a day... based on the time it takes the earth to rotate on it's axis (moons for the ancient people); a year.. based on the time it takes for the earth to orbit the sun (though some early 'calenders' were different). Maths/numbers - 2+2=4. That's what man eventually decided. Numbers were not always there just like language as we know it was not always there. Again, conventions to be able to organise and communicate.
All these are 'later' concepts. And, depending on how man saw these at the time, they could have been very different!
depends on the way you look at it... ive always answered, of course, to the if a tree falls.. question . why wouldnt it??
im a god... not the god.
take a good look
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No... time and math exist with or without us. I think people get hung up on the manner in which we define time. Time is a linear reality that is dependent on where you are in space.
True, we dechipher time based upon the cycles of our home planet. Does this mean time does not exist on other planets... in other solar systems... in other galaxies? It does exist, and we apply our units of measure to the other planets... to the other celestrial bodies. Jupiters days are measures in time, relative to Earth days... distances are measured in light years.
For example... let's pretend the Big Bang was a factual event. From the point of origin, matter has been hurtling through space, away from the point of origin... right. Time passes as the objects move away. We may measure the relative to our own interpretation of time, but, there is a period of time that elapsed from moment the bits of matter that formed our planet left the point of origin of the Big Bang, to it's present location, here on this planet. Time, by what ever measurement is used, moves on.
Same thing with math... SCB proposed that the two of us have different interpretations of the same thing, 1.0000 or 1.0001. I'm saying that the 1, stated in the 1+1=2 equation is just that, the whole number 1. Like 1 dinosaur, because you cannot have 1.0001 dinosaurs. That simple statement, 1+1=2 is an elegant and simple truth.
So, absolute truths do exist. It is when we claim absolute truth in man made concepts, such as religion, that the thing falls apart. The absolute truth about God? The absolute truth is, "we don't know". We can't prove or disprove whether God exists or not. And using the arguement that not being able to prove God exists must mean He does not exist (and vice versa) is a false claim. The Truth is... we don't know.
Hail, Hail!!!
i agree time exists without us.and always has. however being the only creature that uses math, im gonna say without us it wouldnt exist. i doubt the lion king thinks wow! i bagged me 3 impalas today.
take a good look
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I understand what you are saying... but, even if the lion does not understand the concept of math... the fact is.. if he bagged 3 Impalas... he bagged 3 Impalas. The lion does not use math... but, 3 Impalas equals 3 Impalas. Math exists, when when the subject is oblivious of its existance.
There are probably more examples of absolute truths than time and math... death, for example. Death is an absolute certainty for all living creatures. From paramecium to complex forms, such as humans and whales... we are all going to die. Even the great Sequoias are going to eventually die. The statement, "Death is a fact of life" is an absolute truth, when death is defined as the end of physical life sustaining functions.
Hail, Hail!!!
im just saying that without us there is no concept of maths. there is no one around to count the impala therefore counting does not exist.
and yes death is an absolute. however none of us can even be sure of that cause none of us has died and come back to speak of it. i think of death as a transition from one form to another. when we die we are returned to the earth. i guess it depends of your concept of death.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think I am in agreement with Five. The only absolute truths that exists are the truths of logic, which are tautological and - in a way - banal. Then there are the truths "for us." Which are the really hard-earned and important ones.
Sorry to back-track but... You would say no?? How's that?