do humans have value?

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  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    ed243421 wrote:
    heidi

    to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

    Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.
  • ed243421ed243421 Posts: 7,673
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    heidi

    to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

    Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

    i think your brain has already stopped
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    first act of violence, game on !

    Godfather.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    heidi

    to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

    Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

    That is what you think death is. Obviously the physical side of death is the same for everyone, but the rest isn't. And what was it before you were born? Or do you mean before you were conceived? At what point? Maybe this belongs in the philosophy thread.
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    ed243421 wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    heidi

    to know you will die does not mean that you understand death

    Yes it does - My brain will stop, I will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born.

    i think your brain has already stopped
    I guess insults are your way of communicating? Why don't you prove what i said that was wrong then?
  • ed243421ed243421 Posts: 7,673
    so if you are right

    than you know what will happen when you die

    wow

    i guess i was wrong
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Just did a 2 second search and found tons of stuff on this. I rather enjoyed this one:
    http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shortsharpscience/2008/08/do-animals-understand-death-do-humans.html

    Also, because humans invented a way to not be hunter/gatherers, it has also created all the methods in which we kill and discriminate against one another... so I wouldn't necessarily marvel over those accomplishments. A Wallmart isn't a sign of growth, it's a sign of economics transcending comfort and accessibility, but if you correlate it the same idea that we use these things to stock pile and take more than is necessary when others suffer as a result, I highly call it anything redeemable in a positive humanistic trait.
    Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    ed243421 wrote:
    so if you are right

    than you know what will happen when you die

    wow

    i guess i was wrong
    Is there something I said that was incorrect? I belive its common knowlegde that the brain ceases to function when you are dead. That was all i said.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    dpmay wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I used to have a friend who was mentally retarded. He died due to hospital negligence. His mother sued. The defendants argued that, because he was mentally retarded, his life was less valuable than the life of normal adults. :(

    that's totally fucked up. i am sorry to hear that story.

    usually when people argue someone has less value than others, it's because of something the person has done. like as if the person can forfeit their own value...

    I think a lot of times it has to do with their supposed future earning capacity. (This guy worked, but only for minimum wage.) Of course, after I gave my deposition about what a great friend he was (they asked me to be a character witness) and I accidentally started crying, they settled. And this had nothing to do with his future earning capacity.

    Again, it's all relative. And I think what it's often relative to is the (financial) interests of the person assessing value.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    HeidiJam wrote:
    this is part of our evolution and progress

    Woo...
    I'm ahead, I'm a man
    I'm the first mammal to wear pants, yeah
    I'm at peace with my lust
    I can kill 'cause in God I trust, yeah
    It's evolution, baby

    I'm at peace, I'm the man
    Buying stocks on the day of the crash
    On the loose, I'm a truck
    All the rolling hills, I'll flatten 'em out, yeah
    It's herd behavior, uh huh
    It's evolution, baby

    Admire me, admire my home
    Admire my son, he's my clone
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
    This land is mine, this land is free
    I'll do what I want but irresponsibly
    It's evolution, baby

    I'm a thief, I'm a liar
    There's my church, I sing in the choir:
    (hallelujah, hallelujah)

    Admire me, admire my home
    Admire my son, admire my clones
    'Cause we know, appetite for a nightly feast
    Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
    Nothin', why?
    Because... it's evolution, baby!

    I am ahead, I am advanced
    I am the first mammal to make plans, yeah
    I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher
    2010, watch it go to fire
    It's evolution, baby
    Do the evolution
    Come on, come on, come on
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.
    You are describing issues in mankinds society and trying to identify it with an animals society who's whole purpose is to survive, you can't compare an animals primitive society to ours.
  • if i die the world will be about 1/9000000000 less for it. i'd say we arent very valuable ;)
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    so if you are right

    than you know what will happen when you die

    wow

    i guess i was wrong
    Is there something I said that was incorrect? I belive its common knowlegde that the brain ceases to function when you are dead. That was all i said.

    But it's not common knowledge that you "will have no memory, no Conscience. It will be like before you were born." In fact, it's one of the big mysteries of humanity, so I don't know how you can state it as fact.

    I'm also quite surprised to hear you deny that animals understand death. Part of our "evolution" as humans is that we are able to have bodies of knowledge about the natural world, and I believe this is pretty well common knowledge at this point. If animals don't express their understanding of death in a way that you can understand or relate to, well that's your inability.

    Also, evolution (i.e. being able to do/know more, etc.) is not synonymous with progress (i.e. being better than we were previously).
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.


    the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    To cut to the heart of this matter, humans don't "thin the heard" where animals do, but humans do a million and one awful, inhumane things to subjugate and dismiss poor treatment of one another... so which do you accept? Hypocrisy of humans or animals who have a set system of life?
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Are there things like bias, racism, sexism or discrimination in the animal kingdom? No. It's all about pecking order and the natural cycle. Everyone has a role and in their group/tribe and it's from birth to death and most of it is based upon genetics and survival related tasks (birthing, fighting, defending, etc). These are things humans do not have in any manner. Perhaps animals are primitive in technology and the things we claim as significant, but humans are primitive in behavior and practice, so which is better? I'm not saying one is vastly superior, but I find it had pressed for anyone to claim as you are that there is that much separation. As for evolution... man and human civilization on it's own or through society and technology/innovation has gotten bigger, stronger, faster, but not necessarily better. And humans don't live in a vacuum, so "just taking care of your family" is neither here nor there... it's merely an easy way to dispell or not acknowledge the system and processes we setup in the world to run it (some live good and some dont). Animals actually practice the same take care of your own kind mentality and co-exist with the world around them, says a lot more about animals than humans.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats great, I think we all know the animals exibit emotions, especially towards loved one. How do you know animals don't discriminate, they certinly travel in groups or tribes. If you want to marval at the advances of the animal kingdome and way of live, get off your computer, your job, and take yoru family into the wilderness and life it up. There are many instances where fox and wolves stockpile and take more than they need. Your ignorning the fact that this is part of our evolution and progress, I think the best thing to do is take care of your family and be the best person you can to your family and others and hopefuly humanity can make a turn to a more non violent and destructive path. But thats up to everybodys actions not just me and you.


    the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

    the voice of reason,thank you !
    :clap:
    Godfather.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

    I could be wrong, but I thought the original point was that animals don't destroy the environment like humans do. (If that wasn't the original point, then it's my point.)
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Just saw this portion now.

    In every circumstance you list, animals do these things for survival and mating purposes. The entire life cycle is set to carry forward genetics, life and maintain the balance. Where exactly in human existence is anything remotely like this? Absolutely no where. Animals have good reason for these brutish things we take out of context, can you say the same of humans? Not without making a ton of concessions and using excuses to do so.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    scb wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    the strongest eat until they are full, and give the weakest the scraps...how is that different? Last time I checked they don't evenly divide up the antelope, they don't give the weakest and sickest more to their own detriment.

    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.

    I could be wrong, but I thought the original point was that animals don't destroy the environment like humans do. (If that wasn't the original point, then it's my point.)


    wild boars
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • dpmaydpmay Posts: 643
    FiveB247x wrote:
    And what specifically are the greatest human accomplishments?
    dpmay wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    i dont know if better is the proper term.. but they have a system which lives in harmony and is cyclical and it doesnt veer in discrimination and similar. If you look at practically every serious problem that humans have, they all boil down to self-created problems as a result of selfishness, greed and some form of bias towards others. Racism, economic imbalances, poverty, hunger, sickness, war, environment, religion and many others.

    i agree, animals are not really capable of the greatest of human shortcomings. but, i believe, neither are animals capable of the greatest human accomplishments.


    creative artistic expression, global social justice movements, philosophical discourse, questioning and seeking, charity, hope...

    humans aren't perfect, but i believe they are certainly capable of great good.
  • dpmaydpmay Posts: 643
    scb wrote:

    I think a lot of times it has to do with their supposed future earning capacity. (This guy worked, but only for minimum wage.) Of course, after I gave my deposition about what a great friend he was (they asked me to be a character witness) and I accidentally started crying, they settled. And this had nothing to do with his future earning capacity.

    Again, it's all relative. And I think what it's often relative to is the (financial) interests of the person assessing value.


    huh, i never really thought about that aspect. when i talked about sometimes people devaluing others, i was kind of thinking about the way human life tends to be de-valued to justify the death penalty. in that sense, the future earnings arguement is kind of ironic as it generally costs more to execute someone.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Just saw this portion now.

    In every circumstance you list, animals do these things for survival and mating purposes. The entire life cycle is set to carry forward genetics, life and maintain the balance. Where exactly in human existence is anything remotely like this? Absolutely no where. Animals have good reason for these brutish things we take out of context, can you say the same of humans? Not without making a ton of concessions and using excuses to do so.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    edit: If all you do is focus on the negative for humans and then ignore the fact some animals eat their own young, that chimpanzees kill for no other reason than to kill, that males battle to the death(sometimes) to mate with a female, it is pretty easy to claim that animals are fantastic and that their behavior is so much better than humans. On average humans are pretty decent to each other, at least that is my experience. I may have a warped world view based on my upbringing in the midwest, but I don't think it is that far off.


    yes, thinning the heard...it may sound crass, and you would think we would be above that type of behavior, but we are animals and as such we do the same things animals do...we compete for resources. I don't think it is anymore inhumane to kill someone with a bomb than it is to kill someone so that i can mate.

    Animals are slightly different than we are, they do not have the ability to be stewards of nature. If a hungry lion saw the last two male and female antelopes on earth they would chase them down and eat them if they could...in this day and age I don't believe that humans would do that. I agree that humans should/can always be better stewards of the earth and her resources, but lets not pretend that animals are some how more pure or "better", for lack of a different term, because they don't have the ability to ruin things. i think given the chance, they would probably do it to their own benefit. But that is just me.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    Humans survive just like every other animal, We just have attached morals to every action we make... If another animal were to be as evolved and progressive as humans, I think we would witness a very similar lifestyle.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Humans don't thin the heard, in fact we are the species on earth like this. And much of what do on earth whether through science or medicine, it's basically to alter the life expectancy age. These may be beneficial to us, but in the cycle of life, balance of nature and many other areas' it is abnormal. Also, as I said before, "better" is not the correct term, but I think the gap between the two is a lot closer than many would like to presume.
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    yes, thinning the heard...it may sound crass, and you would think we would be above that type of behavior, but we are animals and as such we do the same things animals do...we compete for resources. I don't think it is anymore inhumane to kill someone with a bomb than it is to kill someone so that i can mate.

    Animals are slightly different than we are, they do not have the ability to be stewards of nature. If a hungry lion saw the last two male and female antelopes on earth they would chase them down and eat them if they could...in this day and age I don't believe that humans would do that. I agree that humans should/can always be better stewards of the earth and her resources, but lets not pretend that animals are some how more pure or "better", for lack of a different term, because they don't have the ability to ruin things. i think given the chance, they would probably do it to their own benefit. But that is just me.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    OMG !! I can't believe you guy's are comparing animals to humans, this ain't planet of the apes and we don't live in holes and caves.....anymore :D good grief people wake up and be happy your not my dog waiting for me in my back yard :lol:

    Godfather.
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Humans don't thin the heard, in fact we are the species on earth like this. And much of what do on earth whether through science or medicine, it's basically to alter the life expectancy age. These may be beneficial to us, but in the cycle of life, balance of nature and many other areas' it is abnormal. Also, as I said before, "better" is not the correct term, but I think the gap between the two is a lot closer than many would like to presume.
    Who are you to say what is abnormal for nature??? We are apart of nature, life cycle, balance of life. Whatever we do is part of nature, just because its not primitive does not mean its abnormal. And the gap is huge, you just refuse to look at the good mankind is providing you.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Yes I know everything is part of nature. But since when is defying mortality normal?
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Who are you to say what is abnormal for nature??? We are apart of nature, life cycle, balance of life. Whatever we do is part of nature, just because its not primitive does not mean its abnormal. And the gap is huge, you just refuse to look at the good mankind is providing you.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • you cant hug your children with nuclear arms!
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Yes I know everything is part of nature. But since when is defying mortality normal?
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Who are you to say what is abnormal for nature??? We are apart of nature, life cycle, balance of life. Whatever we do is part of nature, just because its not primitive does not mean its abnormal. And the gap is huge, you just refuse to look at the good mankind is providing you.
    Since morality is subjective.
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