do humans have value?

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  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    cincybearcat wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think war, the death penalty, etc. show us that the value we place on human life is relative.


    All value is relative.

    How much are diamonds worth to you on a island by yourself?

    If your house is on fire and you can only save 1 person...your significant other/spouse or your kid...who do you save? Now, you are in a building on fire and can save only 1 person, your spouse or a stranger?

    Everything has a relative value.

    Yeah, I see your point. But I think there's a difference between not being able to save everyone and actively choosing to kill someone.
  • eyedclaar
    eyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    Roughly $3.00 a pound. Still, it's cheaper than gasoline.
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  • Claireack
    Claireack Posts: 13,561
    eyedclaar wrote:
    Roughly $3.00 a pound. Still, it's cheaper than gasoline.

    You can have me for £5, ok, ok 50p, can't say fairer than that.
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    cincybearcat wrote:
    If your house is on fire and you can only save 1 person...your significant other/spouse or your kid...who do you save? Now, you are in a building on fire and can save only 1 person, your spouse or a stranger?
    ...
    Is that stranger... an infant?
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    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think war, the death penalty, etc. show us that the value we place on human life is relative.
    some people need to be silenced forever.
    we do not value evil.
    it is not acceptable.
    therefore, the sleeping is eternal.
    ...
    Like Cincy said, it is relative to your point of view and how you define, 'Evil'.
    Meaning, there may be someone who believes you to be evil... should your method apply in that case?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    dpmay wrote:
    take that however you want to. i have been having some conversations with people lately, and it seems like a lot of philosophical issues really relate back to these questions ... do we value humanity? if so, how and why? to what degree? is that value in any sense absolute, or is it a relative thing? if humans truly have no exceptionally meaningful value, why not?

    i am curious to learn about the opinions of people around here on this topic...
    ...
    This example is taken from fairly recent history:
    What is the value of a man who was a member of Germany's Nazi party and a commissioned officer in the SS? The program under his authority was to design build and deploy V-2 rockets. He used prisoners from concentration camps as slave labor... more people died building the V-2s, than the V-2 killed in attacks.
    What value does that man have?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    :crazy: this whole thing is just weird......

    value your self and you will understand the value of your fellow man.

    Godfather.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    polaris thats a old saying I just made up :lol:

    Godfather.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Godfather. wrote:
    :crazy: this whole thing is just weird......

    value your self and you will understand the value of your fellow man.

    Godfather.
    ...
    If it were this simple... we would not have any problems with people crossing the borders, looking for work. People would not be treating other people like vermin.
    It is complex and relative to the subject.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Jeanwah wrote:
    How about what I originally wrote, emotions? Yes, some species have few emotions...

    I've been thinking...how about the value of our thumbs? They're definitely a Value to our existence. And communication in combination with emotions (and our thumbs)? I think we're pretty much set far apart than any species with that also.

    I refuse to see that our existence is completely and only self-serving. We are meant to be social and compassionate beings, not to be alone and declare that money trumps all. That goes against our very nature, even though that state of mind is taking over the world. But that state of mind is what may just kill our existence. Love won't, it brings us together.

    were not the only species with opposable thumbs. does our value decrease because of that??? is our value over inflated to begin with???? :think:
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  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Animals more "humanity' than humans.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Animals more "humanity' than humans.
    we are animals...
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I mean animals in the wild (nature).. they have a system and balance in everything. There's nature's law, survival of the fittest (without tampering like us humans do to one another). There's no bias, judgment, materialism or similar. Us silly humans merely setup imbalance and find irrational ways to dictate and justify inhumane and ill-treatment of one another. Nothing like that is in nature or animals. We take things like survival of the fittest or law of the jungle well out of context due to our manipulations of economics, politics and many other areas and relate it back to give us a little justification in our sick world. So like your comment, our acting like animals isn't animals acting like animals in any manner, shape or form whatsoever. It's all just moral code we believe in to sell ourselves the illusion.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Animals more "humanity' than humans.
    we are animals...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • dpmay
    dpmay Posts: 643
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    This example is taken from fairly recent history:
    What is the value of a man who was a member of Germany's Nazi party and a commissioned officer in the SS? The program under his authority was to design build and deploy V-2 rockets. He used prisoners from concentration camps as slave labor... more people died building the V-2s, than the V-2 killed in attacks.
    What value does that man have?


    yeah, this is a related issue. do all humans have equal value?

    personally i would have to believe yes, even monsters like the person you are describing...
  • dpmay
    dpmay Posts: 643
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I mean animals in the wild (nature).. they have a system and balance in everything. There's nature's law, survival of the fittest (without tampering like us humans do to one another). There's no bias, judgment, materialism or similar. Us silly humans merely setup imbalance and find irrational ways to dictate and justify inhumane and ill-treatment of one another. Nothing like that is in nature or animals. We take things like survival of the fittest or law of the jungle well out of context due to our manipulations of economics, politics and many other areas and relate it back to give us a little justification in our sick world. So like your comment, our acting like animals isn't animals acting like animals in any manner, shape or form whatsoever. It's all just moral code we believe in to sell ourselves the illusion.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Animals more "humanity' than humans.
    we are animals...


    are you arguing that animals are in some sense "better" than humans?
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    i dont know if better is the proper term.. but they have a system which lives in harmony and is cyclical and it doesnt veer in discrimination and similar. If you look at practically every serious problem that humans have, they all boil down to self-created problems as a result of selfishness, greed and some form of bias towards others. Racism, economic imbalances, poverty, hunger, sickness, war, environment, religion and many others.
    dpmay wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Animals more "humanity' than humans.
    we are animals...


    are you arguing that animals are in some sense "better" than humans?[/quote]
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    FiveB247x wrote:
    i dont know if better is the proper term.. but they have a system which lives in harmony and is cyclical and it doesnt veer in discrimination and similar. If you look at practically every serious problem that humans have, they all boil down to self-created problems as a result of selfishness, greed and some form of bias towards others. Racism, economic imbalances, poverty, hunger, sickness, war, environment, religion and many others.



    are you arguing that animals are in some sense "better" than humans?
    [/quote][/quote]
    But your arguing problems that animals have no concept of. Animals don't even understand death so they live their life with out any thought of responsiblity other than instinct. I would not say that animals live in harmony, many eat their children, their entire lives are based off of survival. Humans are so disconnected from the life of survival that it turns our focus on other things such as the things you mention. Has any animal other than us protected other animals from extinction? I would say we are much better.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    That's not true though. Animals not only have instincts and emotions but awareness of the surroundings, species and system around them. And yes animals understand death just as they do birth it's part of their life cycle, not sure why you would say otherwise - unless you're referring to spiritualism or religion? And extinction is about evolution, not one species saving another. And even if you did want to make that point, humans not only watch things like genocide, we basically lay the foundations and paths for all humanities extinction... so how are we so much better again?
    HeidiJam wrote:
    But your arguing problems that animals have no concept of. Animals don't even understand death so they live their life with out any thought of responsiblity other than instinct. I would not say that animals live in harmony, many eat their children, their entire lives are based off of survival. Humans are so disconnected from the life of survival that it turns our focus on other things such as the things you mention. Has any animal other than us protected other animals from extinction? I would say we are much better.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    ... Has any animal other than us protected other animals from extinction? I would say we are much better.

    i find this interesting. why does this make people better??? i dont see saving species from extinction as being an inherently good thing. humans destroy environments and then go about 'rescuing' species they have forced to the brink of extinction. why do they do this? why do they even feel the need to do this???
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    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,730
    HeidiJam wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    i dont know if better is the proper term.. but they have a system which lives in harmony and is cyclical and it doesnt veer in discrimination and similar. If you look at practically every serious problem that humans have, they all boil down to self-created problems as a result of selfishness, greed and some form of bias towards others. Racism, economic imbalances, poverty, hunger, sickness, war, environment, religion and many others.



    are you arguing that animals are in some sense "better" than humans?
    [/quote]
    But your arguing problems that animals have no concept of. Animals don't even understand death so they live their life with out any thought of responsiblity other than instinct. I would not say that animals live in harmony, many eat their children, their entire lives are based off of survival. Humans are so disconnected from the life of survival that it turns our focus on other things such as the things you mention. Has any animal other than us protected other animals from extinction? I would say we are much better.[/quote]

    what do you understand about death?
    you say animals do not live in harmony cause they eat their children
    what if they eat their children to control the population
    is that living in harmony with nature?
    ever hear how alligators (or crocs, i forget) can control the sex of their children by the tempature they keep the nest?
    is that being harmonic with nature enough for you?
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