Outrage against BP is ridiculous.

FiveB247x wrote:

No I'm not saying that.. what I am saying is BP is wrong, but the main problem is not soley to blame BP, without actually fixing the cycle of why it occurred, all that alleged outrage is merely useless and pointless.

People in our culture don't want to curb their behavior or participate but expect results and accountability from others. If that's not a case of the elephant in the room, I don't know what is. As I said previously, just as it was Exxon many years ago in Alaska, now it's BP, which one will be next?? And it won't be solely occur because some greedy, uncaring company caused it, it will be the decades of inaction by the citizens, government and general apathy in our nation. Call it what is is - we don't want to fix symptoms but expect diseases to go away. All we do is band-aid problems and this is no different. Without the significant altering of practice and habits, by companies, people and government (all of them), we're merely just preparing for the next disaster.

I do get what you’re saying, and as is often the case; I agree with you in an overarching, idealist sense…I don’t understand what you think is a feasible next step. If everyone stopped consuming oil/petrochemicals tomorrow, it would devastate the world economy and supply chains, resulting in the deaths of millions of ‘innocents’. Every aspect of our lives would need to be altered before it’s even remotely possible to wean ourselves from oil. It can’t happen overnight. So what happens in the meantime? we start treating symptoms while we work on a cure (yes - we need to push for this to happen MUCH faster!)…The outrage at BP is a precursor to discussing a cure, and for some, it appears to have been an epiphanic impetus to change. You can call it counterproductive, wasted emotion, whatever…but you could say that about an emotional response to any situation….guess I prefer to put a positive spin on the result of the emotion than to deride it as ridiculous or illogical…hmm….didn’t I call you Spock recently?

As for industry running amok as a result of public apathy…again, I know where you’re coming from and agree, but I think your expectations are unrealistic. BP fighting for safety deregulation was not headline material. Most people would have had no idea it was happening. That doesn’t mean those people were indifferent. Is every person that uses oil-based products responsible for keeping tabs on the industry? It’s easy to answer ‘yes’…but consider the number of laws and regulations involved, and the number of other concerns the average citizen should be keeping tabs on…consider the mind-numbing amount of information in these bills, the sneaky way politicians slip this shit thru as pork etc…..How is any person with a full time job, a mortgage and a family to be expected to stay informed about every issue? This is what we elect a fucking government to do for us….if they are not doing their jobs, we need to pressure them, yes. But how do we know when they are not doing their jobs w/o something like this happening? And if they’re not doing their jobs, should we criticize them specifically, or the system they’re working under?
Cause if we go to the bottom of the rabbit hole to find the root cause of every problem, we will need to burn our society to the ground over every little issue. There has to be a point at which someone can be held accountable without restructuring EVERYTHING, cause the only alternative is to do just that…burn it to the ground. If that’s what you’re advocating, I’m game :evil:

Btw – as nuckin futs as your postulations can make me, I’ve always found you to be one of the more eloquent posters on the board; dunno wtf buddy was complaining about. Maybe kat and sea’s ‘poisoning the atmosphere’ theory is true and yomamasleepover is rubbin off on people? But...I will say...the way you quote other posts annoys me if you'll kindly change that habit, we'll let your prose slide

youngster wrote:

I find it hilarious that within the last year, millions of people have been protesting at Tea parties about "LESS GOVERNMENT" and "KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF OUR LIVES"

Now that this spill happens and the same people, and even the politicians, that supported the teabaggers all along, are criticizing the president for not doing anything. This is what they wanted for the last 12 months. What. Do they just want him to do something so they can say he did it wrong?

I saw a hardcore, card-carrying Rep. on tv, saying that he hated to request government involvement in private industry...but in this instance it is necessary. Made me think of Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine: the Rise of Disaster Capitalism....You know someone is always trying to further their own agendas by using people's emotions against them in these situations. An incident like this uniting people under a socialist mantra is the kind of thing Alex Jones is going to have a heyday with.

I think we're all well aware of the issues with the world using the Earth's resources at an alarming rate. There's no disputing that. But instead of the finger pointing against society, how about a solution?

When your elementary school teacher would ask a question, would you put your hand up if you didn't know the answer, just to repeat the question back to him? Cause that's basically what you have done here.

FiveB247x wrote:

In your comments you drastically take the onus of responsibility out of the government and citizen's hands and solely blame the industry instead. Industries obviously have their own interests, but will do what the market, government and law dictates. So basically, because people continue to keep paying at the pump or not pressure government to force the necessary changes or the government not buckling down on laws, the industry runs a muck. Yet in this scenario, you make the average person seem powerless and unable to do such, yet want to solely blame the company involved. Fact is we live in a representative democracy and if people don't participate, these are the types of things that occur. It shouldn't be unexpected or a shock to anyone in any manner. We expect others to be accountable and responsible, yet don't hold up to our end of the bargain, and somehow expect different results? Not realistic or practical. Also, and not to mock or insult you, but since you gave yourself as example, I'll elaborate. You state a very typical scenario, just a middle class family trying to make their way, but at what point does our responsibility to be participants in government for the betterment of society in some form become lax or acceptable to check in and out due to other things (whether it's legitimate or not)? Seems like so many in our nation don't pay attention or participate or stay informed, yet we expect results? My point is the public simply talks out of both sides of their mouth and the problems we have are all mostly systematic, not solely the issue being too complex to fix. Oil dependency is a perfect example of such. We have alternatives available but instead we setup, enable and participate in a system/process in which cost and industry decide policy and what's available in the market for the public. And now we want to complain when the results aren't to our liking, but we fully set it forth in motion. A big mantra in our nation is that people don't want to be talked too or treated like children by the government, yet when you see our nation at work, it's very obvious to see the people actually are like spoiled children. Want everything for nothing with no accountability and responsibility. So you and others can whine about BP or the next disaster in the environment or economy and banking industry or similar, I'll call it for what it is, hypocrisy by spoiled people who do not want to bother and are too comfortable to make the effort. Reap what you sow.

he still stands wrote:

I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.

I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...

I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?

Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives? Keep in mind, you guys are talking on a worldwide scale. Do you have any concept of how difficult it is to change the mindset of the world culture? Most cultures can't even agree on borders, never mind shit this complex. Should people start trying? Of course, but this will be as elusive as world peace. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Humans know no other way of operating as a system, so to change it all would be impossible.

Again, I'd love to see it. I'm all for it.

eyedclaar wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?

Somebody better find a whole lot of buffaloes, or get rid of a whole lot of people.

chadwick wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

he still stands wrote:

I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.

I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...

I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?

Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives?

off the top of my head.

answers/questions???
death, birth
seems like 50,000 years ago is inviting.

10,000 years ago a paradise
endless walks
all everything.

survival crudely swift
learnt through failure.

stone earth stick
to a car
to a freeway?

somehow primal inhabitants
knew
the whole reserved future
is each of ours.

agreed. but how do you reverse evolution?

chadwick wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

agreed. but how do you reverse evolution?

simplistically simplistic
plant a garden
art/hobbies
eat local grown produce
drive less
live in a cave... no rules state we need big arrogant homes
credit cards are bullshit
people like, dick cheney & w, are bullshit
drink fresh water and take care of water
water loves
love water
laugh a lot
farting makes people laugh... i don't know why
3/4 of the population is probably getting on your nerves
eat fruit
kiss a fish up in a mountain stream
pick up trash when out walking/hiking
respect this earth
most important... people like, cheney & w, are bullshit


simple list...

problem solved...thanks for saving the world.... :thumbup:

FiveB247x wrote:

I do understand and recognize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but if list in sequence all steps necessary in our system to make correction or adjustments for even the smallest thing, it's quite tedious. My point being, we don't follow through on anything, everything becomes a watered down version of change and basically we maintain the status quo there forward. And albeit you state a practical elements of the human side (family, job, etc), in the end of the day, they merely become excuses and reasons for why nothing changes compared to why they should. Even if the most important things in life (family, friends, love, etc), people are easily dissuaded to stay involved, participate or make things change. On generic levels, people's idea of involvement is watching cable news and voting every few years... and in an already skewed system, it is just running in place at best case scenario. Also, I think the best scenario in any mess like this (or even the banking system) is not solely recovery, but equally important is reform and oversight. Recovery alone merely sets you back to your point of wrong-doing, but not altering it's future occurrence. Which takes us full circle about the meaning of my post. Merely outrage doesn't accomplish anything without the adjustments necessary so it doesn't become repeated. And of course no one or thing will ever be perfect, but we are so far from a generic state of affairs that it is beyond repair. Our system has become and will only become more impenetrable and people's interest, participation and basic level of being informed is lessening. Not a good combination to get results.

I've gotta get back to work now, will respond more later. And that also is the reason why some of my posts are a bit sloppy or not as grammatically correct and structured. Haste makes waste..haha

I agree with you on all these points.