Striving for change is great and I feel we should never aim for anything but constant improvement in all areas of life, but with that if you lose sight of reality and practical limitations, at some point you're merely selling yourself a pipe dream. And this is what our society has become. It is not bad to hope BP should use proper environmental practices and similar, but losing sight in the fact that they have little interest in doing so, negates such an idea. Without recognition of the nature, purpose, intent and action of things in life, you're not properly seeing them. BP didn't just decide to ignore regulations in hope it wouldn't come to this point, it was their intent and calculated risk not to care as it is not in their nature or purpose to care about the environment, it's ours. And in terms of "outrage", our society doesn't do much unless it effects them directly, so I'd more commonly call people's yammering - misguided anger compared to outrage. People are mad at BP but don't fully grasp or acknowledge the full picture in which they are involved and help enable. It's actually more a sign of scapegoating than "outrage leading to action". When people alter their habits in terms of oil consumption, I will wholeheartedly and thoroughly discredit everything I've said here, but the practical reality is people show a brief moment of emotion then go about their business. It's the same reason why we don't have legitimate, long last 3rd parties in America. The grass roots efforts doesn't last because the people do not stick with it for the long term.. same exact mindset in practice. Show of brief emotion, then back to daily life. And in terms of why elect anyone at all, I say one main reason, people live in an illusion... like I said before a pipe dream of what they'd hope is, compared to what actually is.
I cannot for one minute understand the logic behind this premise. It seems cleverly disguised as "meh, let's do nothing, cause it won't do anything anyway". It all starts grassroots. Outrage begets action. Action begets progress. Progress begets a plausible solution.
Why is it so impractical of humans to expect the best out of business? We elect government to oversee such things, so things of this nature won't happen, or at least won't happen again. We might as well not have government if we go by your logic. Why elect anyone if we "know" they won't do anything moral? As a society is our duty to have expectations, and high ones. When they are not met, it is our job to make it known.
With your attitude, Rosa Parks would still be sitting at the back of the bus.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
No I'm not saying that.. what I am saying is BP is wrong, but the main problem is not soley to blame BP, without actually fixing the cycle of why it occurred, all that alleged outrage is merely useless and pointless.
People in our culture don't want to curb their behavior or participate but expect results and accountability from others. If that's not a case of the elephant in the room, I don't know what is. As I said previously, just as it was Exxon many years ago in Alaska, now it's BP, which one will be next?? And it won't be solely occur because some greedy, uncaring company caused it, it will be the decades of inaction by the citizens, government and general apathy in our nation. Call it what is is - we don't want to fix symptoms but expect diseases to go away. All we do is band-aid problems and this is no different. Without the significant altering of practice and habits, by companies, people and government (all of them), we're merely just preparing for the next disaster.
Is the underlined excerpt not exactly what you are doing with your "change your habits" idealism?
You're standing on your soapbox again, telling us that we're all 'ridiculous' for using oil while expressing outrage at BP. Us silly mortals.
I don't know if I'm understanding your premise correctly....reads like you're saying 'don't blame BP for this, they're just doing their jobs. Why would we have any expectations of them to do anything but turn a profit?....YOU are to blame for driving a car and not changing your habits'....am I reading that right?
Am I the only one who likens this to blaming a sex assault on the victim for being provocative? I mean...we're taking part in the immoral act of consuming oil....so we should just shut up and recognize our own role in the problem when something goes wrong.....???
It's unrealistic to expect alternative energy sources to be implemented over night....so, in the interim...what's the answer? "Change your habits" is an impractical response, and in practice, often impossible. Outrage has spurred the 'what's next' discussion, which is good...not ridiculous.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
No I'm not saying that.. what I am saying is BP is wrong, but the main problem is not soley to blame BP, without actually fixing the cycle of why it occurred, all that alleged outrage is merely useless and pointless.
People in our culture don't want to curb their behavior or participate but expect results and accountability from others. If that's not a case of the elephant in the room, I don't know what is. As I said previously, just as it was Exxon many years ago in Alaska, now it's BP, which one will be next?? And it won't be solely occur because some greedy, uncaring company caused it, it will be the decades of inaction by the citizens, government and general apathy in our nation. Call it what is is - we don't want to fix symptoms but expect diseases to go away. All we do is band-aid problems and this is no different. Without the significant altering of practice and habits, by companies, people and government (all of them), we're merely just preparing for the next disaster.
Is the underlined excerpt not exactly what you are doing with your "change your habits" idealism?
You're standing on your soapbox again, telling us that we're all 'ridiculous' for using oil while expressing outrage at BP. Us silly mortals.
I don't know if I'm understanding your premise correctly....reads like you're saying 'don't blame BP for this, they're just doing their jobs. Why would we have any expectations of them to do anything but turn a profit?....YOU are to blame for driving a car and not changing your habits'....am I reading that right?
Am I the only one who likens this to blaming a sex assault on the victim for being provocative? I mean...we're taking part in the immoral act of consuming oil....so we should just shut up and recognize our own role in the problem when something goes wrong.....???
It's unrealistic to expect alternative energy sources to be implemented over night....so, in the interim...what's the answer? "Change your habits" is an impractical response, and in practice, often impossible. Outrage has spurred the 'what's next' discussion, which is good...not ridiculous.
so basically what you are saying is that I should stop eating Snickers because the kid down the street is allergic to peanuts, instead of asking Snickers to get rid of the peanuts? that's ludicrous. what you are arguing is a pipe dream. accountability and improvement IS possible through awareness and law-making. to say that I'm partially responsible for this crisis because I drive a car is simply mental.
maybe you should be blaming Nikolaus August Otto for inventing the internal combustion engine.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You basically prove my point with your comments. Your denial that America is not only oil dependent, but on a destructive path and can't see the tree from the forest. Also, not to mention all the economic, political and environmental issues it causes as a result of our dependency. As I stated earlier, it's easier to live in an illusion than deal with reality. It's no different from the big health-care debate recently, everyone hems and haws about this and that, did anyone mention the fact that Americans don't take good care of themselves and that is the main factor why we need so much health-care and it's so costly? Our nation has it's head in the sand cause it doesn't want to look up. And a good part of that is solely do to being too comfortable and not wanting to change or be bothered... so you'll have to excuse me if I don't chuckle at your snickers correlation.
Here's a basic graph of US crude production compared to our consumption.
The chart shows US crude oil production (blue) and consumption (red) and shows that the USA has been living well beyond its means for over 40 years. This lies at the heart of current global problems creating economic, social, political and environmental imbalance on an unprecedented scale. http://www.theoildrum.com/files/US_crude_production_0.png
so basically what you are saying is that I should stop eating Snickers because the kid down the street is allergic to peanuts, instead of asking Snickers to get rid of the peanuts? that's ludicrous. what you are arguing is a pipe dream. accountability and improvement IS possible through awareness and law-making. to say that I'm partially responsible for this crisis because I drive a car is simply mental.
maybe you should be blaming Nikolaus August Otto for inventing the internal combustion engine.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I worry less about grammatical errors and more about the marshes of coastal Louisiana.
There has to be a forum on which the American people can speak their voices concerning this crisis.
I remember back when we had something called "Congress" which used to represent us, our fears, and our concerns. :?
You got congress wrong. Its used to represent "corporations", feeds us fear, and doesn't give 2 shits about ANY of us.... Sorry, but I had to correct you my friend...
You basically prove my point with your comments. Your denial that America is not only oil dependent, but on a destructive path and can't see the tree from the forest. Also, not to mention all the economic, political and environmental issues it causes as a result of our dependency. As I stated earlier, it's easier to live in an illusion than deal with reality. It's no different from the big health-care debate recently, everyone hems and haws about this and that, did anyone mention the fact that Americans don't take good care of themselves and that is the main factor why we need so much health-care and it's so costly? Our nation has it's head in the sand cause it doesn't want to look up. And a good part of that is solely do to being too comfortable and not wanting to change or be bothered... so you'll have to excuse me if I don't chuckle at your snickers correlation.
Here's a basic graph of US crude production compared to our consumption.
The chart shows US crude oil production (blue) and consumption (red) and shows that the USA has been living well beyond its means for over 40 years. This lies at the heart of current global problems creating economic, social, political and environmental imbalance on an unprecedented scale.
I'm not sure how I proved your point that the US is oil dependent. Show me my so-called "denial"! Your point was that it was society's fault as much or more than BP's for this disaster. I'm not really sure what you'd have society do about this problem. I am a middle class father of two little girls, and I can't afford a hybrid car. So I'm at the mercy of invention. Is that an excuse? Maybe. I could probably ride my bike to work, and take the bus everywhere else (even though it's difficult with two little ones).
But this doesn't take away from the fact that I didn't drill that fucking hole. BP did. I didn't cause that leak. BP did. Supply and demand argument all you want, but the fact is they were responsible for their product and how they got it. They make billions a day off the demand for their product, so they can afford to take proper precautions. They didn't. IT'S THEIR FAULT.
If a Wal Mart exploded with 2000 people in it, would you blame Wal Mart, or blame the people who died for shopping there?
And your health care point; I couldn't agree more. However, if the state doesn't do something about it in the meantime, then things will go to hell. But they also need to do more in making physical education mandatory up until kids graduate. Or at the very least until high school. I am disgusted, even up in Canada, when I walk around the city and I see 10 year olds that weigh 150 pounds. It's sickening.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
In your comments you drastically take the onus of responsibility out of the government and citizen's hands and solely blame the industry instead. Industries obviously have their own interests, but will do what the market, government and law dictates. So basically, because people continue to keep paying at the pump or not pressure government to force the necessary changes or the government not buckling down on laws, the industry runs a muck. Yet in this scenario, you make the average person seem powerless and unable to do such, yet want to solely blame the company involved. Fact is we live in a representative democracy and if people don't participate, these are the types of things that occur. It shouldn't be unexpected or a shock to anyone in any manner. We expect others to be accountable and responsible, yet don't hold up to our end of the bargain, and somehow expect different results? Not realistic or practical. Also, and not to mock or insult you, but since you gave yourself as example, I'll elaborate. You state a very typical scenario, just a middle class family trying to make their way, but at what point does our responsibility to be participants in government for the betterment of society in some form become lax or acceptable to check in and out due to other things (whether it's legitimate or not)? Seems like so many in our nation don't pay attention or participate or stay informed, yet we expect results? My point is the public simply talks out of both sides of their mouth and the problems we have are all mostly systematic, not solely the issue being too complex to fix. Oil dependency is a perfect example of such. We have alternatives available but instead we setup, enable and participate in a system/process in which cost and industry decide policy and what's available in the market for the public. And now we want to complain when the results aren't to our liking, but we fully set it forth in motion. A big mantra in our nation is that people don't want to be talked too or treated like children by the government, yet when you see our nation at work, it's very obvious to see the people actually are like spoiled children. Want everything for nothing with no accountability and responsibility. So you and others can whine about BP or the next disaster in the environment or economy and banking industry or similar, I'll call it for what it is, hypocrisy by spoiled people who do not want to bother and are too comfortable to make the effort. Reap what you sow.
I'm not sure how I proved your point that the US is oil dependent. Show me my so-called "denial"! Your point was that it was society's fault as much or more than BP's for this disaster. I'm not really sure what you'd have society do about this problem. I am a middle class father of two little girls, and I can't afford a hybrid car. So I'm at the mercy of invention. Is that an excuse? Maybe. I could probably ride my bike to work, and take the bus everywhere else (even though it's difficult with two little ones).
But this doesn't take away from the fact that I didn't drill that fucking hole. BP did. I didn't cause that leak. BP did. Supply and demand argument all you want, but the fact is they were responsible for their product and how they got it. They make billions a day off the demand for their product, so they can afford to take proper precautions. They didn't. IT'S THEIR FAULT.
If a Wal Mart exploded with 2000 people in it, would you blame Wal Mart, or blame the people who died for shopping there?
And your health care point; I couldn't agree more. However, if the state doesn't do something about it in the meantime, then things will go to hell. But they also need to do more in making physical education mandatory up until kids graduate. Or at the very least until high school. I am disgusted, even up in Canada, when I walk around the city and I see 10 year olds that weigh 150 pounds. It's sickening.
Post edited by FiveB247x on
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Interesting thread and I agree with a lot of the different points being thrown around. I do however think the OP suffers from terrible timing, our dependents on oil are a problem and it needs to be addressed. However with the oil still flowing at 40k barrels a day because a large company chooses to take short cuts that would maximize profits by limiting expenses. So I think it will be difficult to find a receptive ear until the oil has stopped flowing until then the conversation is stuck on stopping the oil.
In fact I don’t really agree that we (consumers) are at fault at all, I actually think you could draw a line from the Free Market concept right to this disaster. Grab as much profit as you can as quick as you can, Safety is a profit killer…no return for the money spent on it. Safety equipment is only worth while if something goes wrong, and these arrogant fucks didn’t think anything could go wrong. So while consumption is a huge problem in this country….This is nobodies fault but BP’s!
Obviously the cleanup is important, but to me, it means very little if we don't fix the underlying cause of it, not solely band-aid the after result/ effect of it.
And in terms of timing, with any addiction in life, there's never a model/good time to address it... which is why we're in the boat we're in.
Interesting thread and I agree with a lot of the different points being thrown around. I do however think the OP suffers from terrible timing, our dependents on oil are a problem and it needs to be addressed. However with the oil still flowing at 40k barrels a day because a large company chooses to take short cuts that would maximize profits by limiting expenses. So I think it will be difficult to find a receptive ear until the oil has stopped flowing until then the conversation is stuck on stopping the oil.
In fact I don’t really agree that we (consumers) are at fault at all, I actually think you could draw a line from the Free Market concept right to this disaster. Grab as much profit as you can as quick as you can, Safety is a profit killer…no return for the money spent on it. Safety equipment is only worth while if something goes wrong, and these arrogant fucks didn’t think anything could go wrong. So while consumption is a huge problem in this country….This is nobodies fault but BP’s!
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I find it hilarious that within the last year, millions of people have been protesting at Tea parties about "LESS GOVERNMENT" and "KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF OUR LIVES"
Now that this spill happens and the same people, and even the politicians, that supported the teabaggers all along, are criticizing the president for not doing anything. This is what they wanted for the last 12 months. What. Do they just want him to do something so they can say he did it wrong?
No I'm not saying that.. what I am saying is BP is wrong, but the main problem is not soley to blame BP, without actually fixing the cycle of why it occurred, all that alleged outrage is merely useless and pointless.
People in our culture don't want to curb their behavior or participate but expect results and accountability from others. If that's not a case of the elephant in the room, I don't know what is. As I said previously, just as it was Exxon many years ago in Alaska, now it's BP, which one will be next?? And it won't be solely occur because some greedy, uncaring company caused it, it will be the decades of inaction by the citizens, government and general apathy in our nation. Call it what is is - we don't want to fix symptoms but expect diseases to go away. All we do is band-aid problems and this is no different. Without the significant altering of practice and habits, by companies, people and government (all of them), we're merely just preparing for the next disaster.
I do get what you’re saying, and as is often the case; I agree with you in an overarching, idealist sense…I don’t understand what you think is a feasible next step. If everyone stopped consuming oil/petrochemicals tomorrow, it would devastate the world economy and supply chains, resulting in the deaths of millions of ‘innocents’. Every aspect of our lives would need to be altered before it’s even remotely possible to wean ourselves from oil. It can’t happen overnight. So what happens in the meantime? we start treating symptoms while we work on a cure (yes - we need to push for this to happen MUCH faster!)…The outrage at BP is a precursor to discussing a cure, and for some, it appears to have been an epiphanic impetus to change. You can call it counterproductive, wasted emotion, whatever…but you could say that about an emotional response to any situation….guess I prefer to put a positive spin on the result of the emotion than to deride it as ridiculous or illogical…hmm….didn’t I call you Spock recently?
As for industry running amok as a result of public apathy…again, I know where you’re coming from and agree, but I think your expectations are unrealistic. BP fighting for safety deregulation was not headline material. Most people would have had no idea it was happening. That doesn’t mean those people were indifferent. Is every person that uses oil-based products responsible for keeping tabs on the industry? It’s easy to answer ‘yes’…but consider the number of laws and regulations involved, and the number of other concerns the average citizen should be keeping tabs on…consider the mind-numbing amount of information in these bills, the sneaky way politicians slip this shit thru as pork etc…..How is any person with a full time job, a mortgage and a family to be expected to stay informed about every issue? This is what we elect a fucking government to do for us….if they are not doing their jobs, we need to pressure them, yes. But how do we know when they are not doing their jobs w/o something like this happening? And if they’re not doing their jobs, should we criticize them specifically, or the system they’re working under?
Cause if we go to the bottom of the rabbit hole to find the root cause of every problem, we will need to burn our society to the ground over every little issue. There has to be a point at which someone can be held accountable without restructuring EVERYTHING, cause the only alternative is to do just that…burn it to the ground. If that’s what you’re advocating, I’m game :evil:
Btw – as nuckin futs as your postulations can make me, I’ve always found you to be one of the more eloquent posters on the board; dunno wtf buddy was complaining about. Maybe kat and sea’s ‘poisoning the atmosphere’ theory is true and yomamasleepover is rubbin off on people? But...I will say...the way you quote other posts annoys me if you'll kindly change that habit, we'll let your prose slide
I find it hilarious that within the last year, millions of people have been protesting at Tea parties about "LESS GOVERNMENT" and "KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF OUR LIVES"
Now that this spill happens and the same people, and even the politicians, that supported the teabaggers all along, are criticizing the president for not doing anything. This is what they wanted for the last 12 months. What. Do they just want him to do something so they can say he did it wrong?
I find it hilarious that within the last year, millions of people have been protesting at Tea parties about "LESS GOVERNMENT" and "KEEP THE GOVT OUT OF OUR LIVES"
Now that this spill happens and the same people, and even the politicians, that supported the teabaggers all along, are criticizing the president for not doing anything. This is what they wanted for the last 12 months. What. Do they just want him to do something so they can say he did it wrong?
I saw a hardcore, card-carrying Rep. on tv, saying that he hated to request government involvement in private industry...but in this instance it is necessary. Made me think of Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine: the Rise of Disaster Capitalism....You know someone is always trying to further their own agendas by using people's emotions against them in these situations. An incident like this uniting people under a socialist mantra is the kind of thing Alex Jones is going to have a heyday with.
I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.
I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I think we're all well aware of the issues with the world using the Earth's resources at an alarming rate. There's no disputing that. But instead of the finger pointing against society, how about a solution?
When your elementary school teacher would ask a question, would you put your hand up if you didn't know the answer, just to repeat the question back to him? Cause that's basically what you have done here.
In your comments you drastically take the onus of responsibility out of the government and citizen's hands and solely blame the industry instead. Industries obviously have their own interests, but will do what the market, government and law dictates. So basically, because people continue to keep paying at the pump or not pressure government to force the necessary changes or the government not buckling down on laws, the industry runs a muck. Yet in this scenario, you make the average person seem powerless and unable to do such, yet want to solely blame the company involved. Fact is we live in a representative democracy and if people don't participate, these are the types of things that occur. It shouldn't be unexpected or a shock to anyone in any manner. We expect others to be accountable and responsible, yet don't hold up to our end of the bargain, and somehow expect different results? Not realistic or practical. Also, and not to mock or insult you, but since you gave yourself as example, I'll elaborate. You state a very typical scenario, just a middle class family trying to make their way, but at what point does our responsibility to be participants in government for the betterment of society in some form become lax or acceptable to check in and out due to other things (whether it's legitimate or not)? Seems like so many in our nation don't pay attention or participate or stay informed, yet we expect results? My point is the public simply talks out of both sides of their mouth and the problems we have are all mostly systematic, not solely the issue being too complex to fix. Oil dependency is a perfect example of such. We have alternatives available but instead we setup, enable and participate in a system/process in which cost and industry decide policy and what's available in the market for the public. And now we want to complain when the results aren't to our liking, but we fully set it forth in motion. A big mantra in our nation is that people don't want to be talked too or treated like children by the government, yet when you see our nation at work, it's very obvious to see the people actually are like spoiled children. Want everything for nothing with no accountability and responsibility. So you and others can whine about BP or the next disaster in the environment or economy and banking industry or similar, I'll call it for what it is, hypocrisy by spoiled people who do not want to bother and are too comfortable to make the effort. Reap what you sow.
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.
I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...
I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?
Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives? Keep in mind, you guys are talking on a worldwide scale. Do you have any concept of how difficult it is to change the mindset of the world culture? Most cultures can't even agree on borders, never mind shit this complex. Should people start trying? Of course, but this will be as elusive as world peace. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Humans know no other way of operating as a system, so to change it all would be impossible.
Again, I'd love to see it. I'm all for it.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.
I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...
I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?
Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives?
off the top of my head.
answers/questions???
death, birth
seems like 50,000 years ago is inviting.
10,000 years ago a paradise
endless walks
all everything.
survival crudely swift
learnt through failure.
stone earth stick
to a car
to a freeway?
somehow primal inhabitants
knew
the whole reserved future
is each of ours.
I was basically arguing the same point as the OP the other day when I was saying that these sort of things are inherent to the world we live in. They are "externalities" of capitalism. So a more precise way to talk about this is simply to say that we should get past the inadequacies of capitalism by burning down the whole system of government, business and authority and learn to coexist.
I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...
I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?
Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives?
off the top of my head.
answers/questions???
death, birth
seems like 50,000 years ago is inviting.
10,000 years ago a paradise
endless walks
all everything.
survival crudely swift
learnt through failure.
stone earth stick
to a car
to a freeway?
somehow primal inhabitants
knew
the whole reserved future
is each of ours.
agreed. but how do you reverse evolution?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I do understand and recognize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but if list in sequence all steps necessary in our system to make correction or adjustments for even the smallest thing, it's quite tedious. My point being, we don't follow through on anything, everything becomes a watered down version of change and basically we maintain the status quo there forward. And albeit you state a practical elements of the human side (family, job, etc), in the end of the day, they merely become excuses and reasons for why nothing changes compared to why they should. Even if the most important things in life (family, friends, love, etc), people are easily dissuaded to stay involved, participate or make things change. On generic levels, people's idea of involvement is watching cable news and voting every few years... and in an already skewed system, it is just running in place at best case scenario. Also, I think the best scenario in any mess like this (or even the banking system) is not solely recovery, but equally important is reform and oversight. Recovery alone merely sets you back to your point of wrong-doing, but not altering it's future occurrence. Which takes us full circle about the meaning of my post. Merely outrage doesn't accomplish anything without the adjustments necessary so it doesn't become repeated. And of course no one or thing will ever be perfect, but we are so far from a generic state of affairs that it is beyond repair. Our system has become and will only become more impenetrable and people's interest, participation and basic level of being informed is lessening. Not a good combination to get results.
I've gotta get back to work now, will respond more later. And that also is the reason why some of my posts are a bit sloppy or not as grammatically correct and structured. Haste makes waste..haha
I do get what you’re saying, and as is often the case; I agree with you in an overarching, idealist sense…I don’t understand what you think is a feasible next step. If everyone stopped consuming oil/petrochemicals tomorrow, it would devastate the world economy and supply chains, resulting in the deaths of millions of ‘innocents’. Every aspect of our lives would need to be altered before it’s even remotely possible to wean ourselves from oil. It can’t happen overnight. So what happens in the meantime? we start treating symptoms while we work on a cure (yes - we need to push for this to happen MUCH faster!)…The outrage at BP is a precursor to discussing a cure, and for some, it appears to have been an epiphanic impetus to change. You can call it counterproductive, wasted emotion, whatever…but you could say that about an emotional response to any situation….guess I prefer to put a positive spin on the result of the emotion than to deride it as ridiculous or illogical…hmm….didn’t I call you Spock recently?
As for industry running amok as a result of public apathy…again, I know where you’re coming from and agree, but I think your expectations are unrealistic. BP fighting for safety deregulation was not headline material. Most people would have had no idea it was happening. That doesn’t mean those people were indifferent. Is every person that uses oil-based products responsible for keeping tabs on the industry? It’s easy to answer ‘yes’…but consider the number of laws and regulations involved, and the number of other concerns the average citizen should be keeping tabs on…consider the mind-numbing amount of information in these bills, the sneaky way politicians slip this shit thru as pork etc…..How is any person with a full time job, a mortgage and a family to be expected to stay informed about every issue? This is what we elect a fucking government to do for us….if they are not doing their jobs, we need to pressure them, yes. But how do we know when they are not doing their jobs w/o something like this happening? And if they’re not doing their jobs, should we criticize them specifically, or the system they’re working under?
Cause if we go to the bottom of the rabbit hole to find the root cause of every problem, we will need to burn our society to the ground over every little issue. There has to be a point at which someone can be held accountable without restructuring EVERYTHING, cause the only alternative is to do just that…burn it to the ground. If that’s what you’re advocating, I’m game :evil:
Btw – as nuckin futs as your postulations can make me, I’ve always found you to be one of the more eloquent posters on the board; dunno wtf buddy was complaining about. Maybe kat and sea’s ‘poisoning the atmosphere’ theory is true and yomamasleepover is rubbin off on people? But...I will say...the way you quote other posts annoys me if you'll kindly change that habit, we'll let your prose slide
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
simplistically simplistic
plant a garden
art/hobbies
eat local grown produce
drive less
live in a cave... no rules state we need big arrogant homes
credit cards are bullshit
people like, dick cheney & w, are bullshit
drink fresh water and take care of water
water loves
love water
laugh a lot
farting makes people laugh... i don't know why
3/4 of the population is probably getting on your nerves
eat fruit
kiss a fish up in a mountain stream
pick up trash when out walking/hiking
respect this earth
most important... people like, cheney & w, are bullshit
simplistically simplistic
plant a garden
art/hobbies
eat local grown produce
drive less
live in a cave... no rules state we need big arrogant homes
credit cards are bullshit
people like, dick cheney & w, are bullshit
drink fresh water and take care of water
water loves
love water
laugh a lot
farting makes people laugh... i don't know why
3/4 of the population is probably getting on your nerves
eat fruit
kiss a fish up in a mountain stream
pick up trash when out walking/hiking
respect this earth
most important... people like, cheney & w, are bullshit
simple list...
problem solved...thanks for saving the world.... :thumbup:
I find it rather funny that here you ask for a solution, yet the primary reason and aim of my message is that all these people bitching and complaining about BP don't do anything but that and aren't offering any changes and full participate, enable and actively encourage bad practice by there own habits. So your answer to me is, quit complaining and fix it, but when I call the masses out on this, you take offense to it? Pot meet kettle.
I think we're all well aware of the issues with the world using the Earth's resources at an alarming rate. There's no disputing that. But instead of the finger pointing against society, how about a solution?
When your elementary school teacher would ask a question, would you put your hand up if you didn't know the answer, just to repeat the question back to him? Cause that's basically what you have done here.
In your comments you drastically take the onus of responsibility out of the government and citizen's hands and solely blame the industry instead. Industries obviously have their own interests, but will do what the market, government and law dictates. So basically, because people continue to keep paying at the pump or not pressure government to force the necessary changes or the government not buckling down on laws, the industry runs a muck. Yet in this scenario, you make the average person seem powerless and unable to do such, yet want to solely blame the company involved. Fact is we live in a representative democracy and if people don't participate, these are the types of things that occur. It shouldn't be unexpected or a shock to anyone in any manner. We expect others to be accountable and responsible, yet don't hold up to our end of the bargain, and somehow expect different results? Not realistic or practical. Also, and not to mock or insult you, but since you gave yourself as example, I'll elaborate. You state a very typical scenario, just a middle class family trying to make their way, but at what point does our responsibility to be participants in government for the betterment of society in some form become lax or acceptable to check in and out due to other things (whether it's legitimate or not)? Seems like so many in our nation don't pay attention or participate or stay informed, yet we expect results? My point is the public simply talks out of both sides of their mouth and the problems we have are all mostly systematic, not solely the issue being too complex to fix. Oil dependency is a perfect example of such. We have alternatives available but instead we setup, enable and participate in a system/process in which cost and industry decide policy and what's available in the market for the public. And now we want to complain when the results aren't to our liking, but we fully set it forth in motion. A big mantra in our nation is that people don't want to be talked too or treated like children by the government, yet when you see our nation at work, it's very obvious to see the people actually are like spoiled children. Want everything for nothing with no accountability and responsibility. So you and others can whine about BP or the next disaster in the environment or economy and banking industry or similar, I'll call it for what it is, hypocrisy by spoiled people who do not want to bother and are too comfortable to make the effort. Reap what you sow.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I do not think I'm above our outside the whole.. just as guilty, although I personally would say I don't care about people's petty gripes. It's mere cause and effect, action and reaction.. the rest is excuses and nonsense.
FiveB247x: are you outraged at yourself, or are you somehow exempt from blame in this because you have the "right ideals"?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
simplistically simplistic
plant a garden
art/hobbies
eat local grown produce
drive less
live in a cave... no rules state we need big arrogant homes
credit cards are bullshit
people like, dick cheney & w, are bullshit
drink fresh water and take care of water
water loves
love water
laugh a lot
farting makes people laugh... i don't know why
3/4 of the population is probably getting on your nerves
eat fruit
kiss a fish up in a mountain stream
pick up trash when out walking/hiking
respect this earth
most important... people like, cheney & w, are bullshit
simple list...
problem solved...thanks for saving the world.... :thumbup:
I do understand and recognize that Rome wasn't built in a day, but if list in sequence all steps necessary in our system to make correction or adjustments for even the smallest thing, it's quite tedious. My point being, we don't follow through on anything, everything becomes a watered down version of change and basically we maintain the status quo there forward. And albeit you state a practical elements of the human side (family, job, etc), in the end of the day, they merely become excuses and reasons for why nothing changes compared to why they should. Even if the most important things in life (family, friends, love, etc), people are easily dissuaded to stay involved, participate or make things change. On generic levels, people's idea of involvement is watching cable news and voting every few years... and in an already skewed system, it is just running in place at best case scenario. Also, I think the best scenario in any mess like this (or even the banking system) is not solely recovery, but equally important is reform and oversight. Recovery alone merely sets you back to your point of wrong-doing, but not altering it's future occurrence. Which takes us full circle about the meaning of my post. Merely outrage doesn't accomplish anything without the adjustments necessary so it doesn't become repeated. And of course no one or thing will ever be perfect, but we are so far from a generic state of affairs that it is beyond repair. Our system has become and will only become more impenetrable and people's interest, participation and basic level of being informed is lessening. Not a good combination to get results.
I've gotta get back to work now, will respond more later. And that also is the reason why some of my posts are a bit sloppy or not as grammatically correct and structured. Haste makes waste..haha
I agree with you on all these points.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I find it rather funny that here you ask for a solution, yet the primary reason and aim of my message is that all these people bitching and complaining about BP don't do anything but that and aren't offering any changes and full participate, enable and actively encourage bad practice by there own habits. So your answer to me is, quit complaining and fix it, but when I call the masses out on this, you take offense to it? Pot meet kettle.
I don't take offense at all. Honestly, except the point of "who is to blame" ultimately, I think we are on the same page. I agree that change is necessary; it has been necessary for eons. And you're right, it won't happen without people starting to make a change, instead of talking about it. That was my question to you. I am blaming BP but offering no solutions; you are blaming society but offer no solutions, so we're doing the same thing, that's just what I was trying to point out.
There are so many ills of the world, not just over-consumption, that disgust me about the human race. Believe me. Crown Royal helps.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
People in our culture don't want to curb their behavior or participate but expect results and accountability from others. If that's not a case of the elephant in the room, I don't know what is. As I said previously, just as it was Exxon many years ago in Alaska, now it's BP, which one will be next?? And it won't be solely occur because some greedy, uncaring company caused it, it will be the decades of inaction by the citizens, government and general apathy in our nation. Call it what is is - we don't want to fix symptoms but expect diseases to go away. All we do is band-aid problems and this is no different. Without the significant altering of practice and habits, by companies, people and government (all of them), we're merely just preparing for the next disaster.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
so basically what you are saying is that I should stop eating Snickers because the kid down the street is allergic to peanuts, instead of asking Snickers to get rid of the peanuts? that's ludicrous. what you are arguing is a pipe dream. accountability and improvement IS possible through awareness and law-making. to say that I'm partially responsible for this crisis because I drive a car is simply mental.
maybe you should be blaming Nikolaus August Otto for inventing the internal combustion engine.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Here's a basic graph of US crude production compared to our consumption.
The chart shows US crude oil production (blue) and consumption (red) and shows that the USA has been living well beyond its means for over 40 years. This lies at the heart of current global problems creating economic, social, political and environmental imbalance on an unprecedented scale.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/US_crude_production_0.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_consumption
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
You got congress wrong. Its used to represent "corporations", feeds us fear, and doesn't give 2 shits about ANY of us.... Sorry, but I had to correct you my friend...
I'm not sure how I proved your point that the US is oil dependent. Show me my so-called "denial"! Your point was that it was society's fault as much or more than BP's for this disaster. I'm not really sure what you'd have society do about this problem. I am a middle class father of two little girls, and I can't afford a hybrid car. So I'm at the mercy of invention. Is that an excuse? Maybe. I could probably ride my bike to work, and take the bus everywhere else (even though it's difficult with two little ones).
But this doesn't take away from the fact that I didn't drill that fucking hole. BP did. I didn't cause that leak. BP did. Supply and demand argument all you want, but the fact is they were responsible for their product and how they got it. They make billions a day off the demand for their product, so they can afford to take proper precautions. They didn't. IT'S THEIR FAULT.
If a Wal Mart exploded with 2000 people in it, would you blame Wal Mart, or blame the people who died for shopping there?
And your health care point; I couldn't agree more. However, if the state doesn't do something about it in the meantime, then things will go to hell. But they also need to do more in making physical education mandatory up until kids graduate. Or at the very least until high school. I am disgusted, even up in Canada, when I walk around the city and I see 10 year olds that weigh 150 pounds. It's sickening.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
In fact I don’t really agree that we (consumers) are at fault at all, I actually think you could draw a line from the Free Market concept right to this disaster. Grab as much profit as you can as quick as you can, Safety is a profit killer…no return for the money spent on it. Safety equipment is only worth while if something goes wrong, and these arrogant fucks didn’t think anything could go wrong. So while consumption is a huge problem in this country….This is nobodies fault but BP’s!
And in terms of timing, with any addiction in life, there's never a model/good time to address it... which is why we're in the boat we're in.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Now that this spill happens and the same people, and even the politicians, that supported the teabaggers all along, are criticizing the president for not doing anything. This is what they wanted for the last 12 months. What. Do they just want him to do something so they can say he did it wrong?
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
As for industry running amok as a result of public apathy…again, I know where you’re coming from and agree, but I think your expectations are unrealistic. BP fighting for safety deregulation was not headline material. Most people would have had no idea it was happening. That doesn’t mean those people were indifferent. Is every person that uses oil-based products responsible for keeping tabs on the industry? It’s easy to answer ‘yes’…but consider the number of laws and regulations involved, and the number of other concerns the average citizen should be keeping tabs on…consider the mind-numbing amount of information in these bills, the sneaky way politicians slip this shit thru as pork etc…..How is any person with a full time job, a mortgage and a family to be expected to stay informed about every issue? This is what we elect a fucking government to do for us….if they are not doing their jobs, we need to pressure them, yes. But how do we know when they are not doing their jobs w/o something like this happening? And if they’re not doing their jobs, should we criticize them specifically, or the system they’re working under?
Cause if we go to the bottom of the rabbit hole to find the root cause of every problem, we will need to burn our society to the ground over every little issue. There has to be a point at which someone can be held accountable without restructuring EVERYTHING, cause the only alternative is to do just that…burn it to the ground. If that’s what you’re advocating, I’m game :evil:
Btw – as nuckin futs as your postulations can make me, I’ve always found you to be one of the more eloquent posters on the board; dunno wtf buddy was complaining about. Maybe kat and sea’s ‘poisoning the atmosphere’ theory is true and yomamasleepover is rubbin off on people? But...I will say...the way you quote other posts annoys me if you'll kindly change that habit, we'll let your prose slide
great post... :!: :!:
I know I'll be called tyrannical for saying these things... but it is merely logic. These sorts of things will continue to happen (which, I think, is the OP's point) if we don't make changes. There is no getting around that. No matter how much regulation or safety-practices of the businesses these things, statistically, will always happen. So.. yeah... we've got to stop. Or destroy ourselves...
When your elementary school teacher would ask a question, would you put your hand up if you didn't know the answer, just to repeat the question back to him? Cause that's basically what you have done here.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSRngcYV ... re=related
I'm not sure how the world would function in its current state without government and business. Go back to living in huts and hunting buffalo?
Of course we've got to stop. Any ideas on alternatives? Keep in mind, you guys are talking on a worldwide scale. Do you have any concept of how difficult it is to change the mindset of the world culture? Most cultures can't even agree on borders, never mind shit this complex. Should people start trying? Of course, but this will be as elusive as world peace. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Humans know no other way of operating as a system, so to change it all would be impossible.
Again, I'd love to see it. I'm all for it.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Somebody better find a whole lot of buffaloes, or get rid of a whole lot of people.
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Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
off the top of my head.
answers/questions???
death, birth
seems like 50,000 years ago is inviting.
10,000 years ago a paradise
endless walks
all everything.
survival crudely swift
learnt through failure.
stone earth stick
to a car
to a freeway?
somehow primal inhabitants
knew
the whole reserved future
is each of ours.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
agreed. but how do you reverse evolution?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I've gotta get back to work now, will respond more later. And that also is the reason why some of my posts are a bit sloppy or not as grammatically correct and structured. Haste makes waste..haha
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
plant a garden
art/hobbies
eat local grown produce
drive less
live in a cave... no rules state we need big arrogant homes
credit cards are bullshit
people like, dick cheney & w, are bullshit
drink fresh water and take care of water
water loves
love water
laugh a lot
farting makes people laugh... i don't know why
3/4 of the population is probably getting on your nerves
eat fruit
kiss a fish up in a mountain stream
pick up trash when out walking/hiking
respect this earth
most important... people like, cheney & w, are bullshit
simple list...
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
problem solved...thanks for saving the world.... :thumbup:
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
you're very welcome. :wave:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I agree with you on all these points.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I don't take offense at all. Honestly, except the point of "who is to blame" ultimately, I think we are on the same page. I agree that change is necessary; it has been necessary for eons. And you're right, it won't happen without people starting to make a change, instead of talking about it. That was my question to you. I am blaming BP but offering no solutions; you are blaming society but offer no solutions, so we're doing the same thing, that's just what I was trying to point out.
There are so many ills of the world, not just over-consumption, that disgust me about the human race. Believe me. Crown Royal helps.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014