Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

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  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    redrock wrote:
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    the first 6 Greeks activist arrive in Athens airport.the israelian goverment let them free,
    they say that they put them on their knees,with gun in the head,some they did electoshock and soldiers filming all
    they release them cos they put them to sign documents in israelian language
    the rest of the Greek activist still are prisoners,cos they dont accept the offer to sign papers that dont know what it says,no lawers allowed..
    so sad,i hope all my Greeks brothers come back home safe ..

    It is reported here that the greek captain who was shot had the balls to refuse to be treated in an israeli hospital and demanded to be immediately flown back to Greece for treatment. How's that for the greek men? :mrgreen:
    yep,true..are 30 more Greek prisoners right now,they dont even talk to the authorites,they say dont recognize israel as the legal country of the area..a reporter is with them ,tomorrow again demostration is going to all big cities in Greece..
    really this time israelian goverment do a big mistake..
    here in the news is a mess cos goverment sent someone to see how they treat greek prisoners and he is missing the last 9 hours,,
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Byrnzie wrote:
    rafie wrote:
    Hello D, I never said that I was proud or happy that people got killed, but I am deffinately not ashamed.

    You should be ashamed. You should be very ashamed. Spouting such bullshit in an attempt to defend the murder of at least ten civilian aid workers in yet another act of international terrorism by Israel is truly shameful.

    I won't waste my time responding to the rest of your post as it's just pure horseshit.

    Good night!

    B, just for a moment imagine that your reflexive assumption that the Israelis fired first, without provocation, isn't correct. Imagine for the moment that the Israeli soldiers boarded the ship, were violently attacked by a mob wielding metal pipes, baseball bats, and knives, and only opened fire in self-defense. If this was the case I think that it is perfectly reasonable to say that the soldiers were justified in their actions.

    Now, there isn't any dispute that the soldiers were attacked. There is video evidence (thank you rafie), and medical evidence (the injuries to the soldiers) that objectively prove this to be true. The only real question is who started the violence. You, and many others here, assume that it was Israel, but so far your position has no evidence to back it up other than the accounts of those with a clear interest in presenting Israel in the worst possible light (the activists themselves, Arab and Muslim news agencies, etc). This doesn't mean that your assumption is necessarily false, just that it is not currently supported by objective evidence. This is also true of the claim that the activists were the one's who started the violence. At this point we simply don't know who attacked whom first.

    However, and now I am simply giving my own opinion, what did Israel have to gain by opening fire unprovoked? They had nothing to gain, and as we can see from the world's reaction, they had everything to lose. So why would they open fire on peaceable activists unprovoked as you claim they did? And why didn't they open fire on the other 5 ships in the flotilla, if their intention was to fire on the activists unprovoked? It just seems much more likely to me that the expectation of the IDF was that the activists would only employ passive resistance, and that the Israeli commandos who boarded the ship opened fire only after they felt that their lives were in danger.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    polaris_x wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.

    this floatilla was for sure aimed primarily at raising awareness of this blockade - knowing israel would respond they way they did allowed for the current coverage it is receiving ...

    having said that - docking in Ashdod makes aboslutely no sense if the idea is get aid to the people of gaza knowing full well most of the stuff would be deemed inappropriate ...

    I'm sorry, I'm confused. The first part of your answer suggests that the goal of the flotilla was primarily political, that they turned down the Ashdod offer because they wanted to provoke a conflict, but then the second part of your answer suggests that they turned down the offer because it wouldn't serve their humanitarian goals. Which is it?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    Byrnzie wrote:
    rafie wrote:
    I don't see any problem in stating my opinions on any board, especially this one! I am sad to say that most of the time these boards are not a place for legitimate debate, but for one sided hate mongering. As a proud jew and a proud Israeli I have no problem in the world defending my beliefs and ideals against people whose only interest is hate.

    From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...

    Any one who has even the smallest knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict knows that things are not always so nice and one sided as some people and news agencies may have you believe. I am in no way justifying the taking of any human life, but people need to realize that this convoy was not 100% peace oriented. I am sure that most of the hundreds of people participating were doing it entirely for humanitarian reasons, but that still does not excuse those few dozens that had violence in mind.

    I have never stated that I am "selling things". I am simply stating the other side of the debate. Any one who is trully objective will look at both sides of the story and decide for them selves.

    Are you a Pearl Jam fan or just an Israeli internet stooge?

    I see you've just posted 28 posts of Pro-Israeli bullshit. Do you think everybody on this forum is an idiot?

    B, now you're just attacking the person, not the argument. Aside from being kind of mean spirited and douchy, this type of ad hominem attack does nothing to weaken, or even address, any of the arguments rafie has made.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    he still stands wrote:
    I don't know nearly as much as some of you about this situation but one thing seems clear to me; rationalism is never going to be the solution. There is no logical and reason-based approach to fixing this situation. Even creating a Palestinian country is no solution because there would be disputes over what land they get, how much land, the quality of that land, more people would be displaced to create the country, and inevitably conflict will continue. The only solution is for people to evolve and realize we're all one (literally) and to forget all the bullshit ideologies that allow us to kill each other in the name of god or country. That might sound ideological but I firmly believe this is the way to peace. What is standing in the way of this evolution? - morality, prescribed nonsense, and the need for power and dominance. These are all functions of the ego, so peace means killing the ego. You know, they make chemicals that will do that extremely quickly.

    This is a nice thought (especially the bit about assisting the process with drugs), but really this is just another secular messianism. We are stuck in the real world, and we just have to deal with it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    one would have too ask WHY the israeli govt find it necessary to stop aid reaching gaza.

    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.


    maybe because israel won't allow things like fruit juice, coriander, wood....and up until 2 months ago shoes from entering gaza! not only that but the un reported what israel allows in only meets 1/4 of gaza's daily needs. if they turned the items over they wouldn't be give to gaza

    who is israel to tell 1.5 million people they can't use coriander or wood or drink fruit juice!? and can you explain how a resident of gaza having one of those items would lead to the destruction of israel?? it's as crazy as that former soviet state that the us gives aid to that banned things like the ballet
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.


    maybe because israel won't allow things like fruit juice, coriander, wood....and up until 2 months ago shoes from entering gaza! not only that but the un reported what israel allows in only meets 1/4 of gaza's daily needs. if they turned the items over they wouldn't be give to gaza

    who is israel to tell 1.5 million people they can't use coriander or wood or drink fruit juice!? and can you explain how a resident of gaza having one of those items would lead to the destruction of israel?? it's as crazy as that former soviet state that the us gives aid to that banned things like the ballet

    List of forbidden items;

    4. What are some of the items Israel has prohibited from entering Gaza?

    sage

    cardamom

    cumin

    coriander

    ginger

    jam

    halva

    vinegar

    nutmeg

    chocolate

    fruit preserves

    seeds and nuts

    biscuits and sweets

    potato chips

    gas for soft drinks

    dried fruit

    fresh meat

    plaster

    tar

    wood for construction

    cement

    iron

    glucose

    industrial salt

    plastic/glass/metal containers

    industrial margarine

    tarpaulin sheets for huts

    fabric (for clothing)

    flavor and smell enhancers

    fishing rods

    various fishing nets

    buoys

    ropes for fishing

    nylon nets for greenhouses

    hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries

    spare parts for tractors

    dairies for cowsheds

    irrigation pipe systems

    ropes to tie greenhouses

    planters for saplings

    heaters for chicken farms

    musical instruments

    size A4 paper

    writing implements

    notebooks

    newspapers

    toys

    razors

    sewing machines and spare parts

    heaters

    horses

    donkeys

    goats

    cattle

    chicks
  • michelleelise
    michelleelise Posts: 346
    Digital Twilight wrote:
    List of forbidden items;

    4. What are some of the items Israel has prohibited from entering Gaza?

    sage

    cardamom

    cumin

    coriander

    ginger

    jam

    ...

    Here is the full list from Gisha: http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenM ... 060510.pdf

    My deep concerns about the blockade center around Gazans ability to have access to health care and medicines as well as staples and fresh water. I think many of these people do not support Hamas and are being used as pawns. Which is also why I think Israel has a responsibility to be very careful in it's reactions and the way it implements the blockade. However, I absolutely think some type of blockade is warranted.

    That said, anyone who would compare this situation to Darfur is insulting Darfur:

    From Palestine Today in November 09, Edit: the caption is "From my / lens "Palestine Today" pick up scenes preparations for Gazans to Eid al-Adha". Festival preparations in Gaza, in other words:

    http://www.paltoday.ps/arabic/News-64161.html


    Also, I could care less if they get chocolate through the blockade, especially since they have easy access to it through the tunnels. If they don't like the premium they pay, they can blame Hamas for that.

    Financial Times, "Gaza Looks Beyond the Tunnel Economy" , http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c51267a-66ca-11df-aeb1-00144feab49a.html

    "But the remaining tunnels, about 200 to 300 according to most estimates, have become so efficient that shops all over Gaza are bursting with goods.

    Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup - long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade - are both cheap and widely available.

    "Everything I demand, I can get," says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    he still stands wrote:
    An agreement between who? If there is an agreement why isn't it done?

    Because the U.S stands alone in the world by vetoing U.N Resolution 242 every year.

    Every year the vote goes approx 160 - 7 with the whole world on one side, and Israel, The U.S, Australia, Nauru, Palau, Tuvalu and The Marshall Island on the other side.

    The U.S has used/abused it's power of automatic veto at the U.N every year for 40 years to prevent a peaceful settlement.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    B, just for a moment imagine that your reflexive assumption that the Israelis fired first, without provocation, isn't correct. Imagine for the moment that the Israeli soldiers boarded the ship, were violently attacked by a mob wielding metal pipes, baseball bats, and knives, and only opened fire in self-defense. If this was the case I think that it is perfectly reasonable to say that the soldiers were justified in their actions.

    Attacking an aid ship in international waters is an act of piracy and a breach of international law. This was no accident. The Israeli's had planned this attack days in advance. If they wanted to peacefully inspect the ship then why did they board it at night in darkness armed with machine guns and pistols when most of those on board were asleep? That video clip that the Israeli spin machine has been promoting at every opportunity doesn't mean anything. It could have been filmed after the Israeli's had already begun slaughtering those on board. Why has Israel imposed a one-sided media blackout? If it has nothing to hide then why would it confiscate the cameras of the aid workers and prevent any of the aid workers - barring a few who have managed to get word out - being able to give their side of the story?



    yosi wrote:
    However, and now I am simply giving my own opinion, what did Israel have to gain by opening fire unprovoked? They had nothing to gain, and as we can see from the world's reaction, they had everything to lose. So why would they open fire on peaceable activists unprovoked as you claim they did? And why didn't they open fire on the other 5 ships in the flotilla, if their intention was to fire on the activists unprovoked? It just seems much more likely to me that the expectation of the IDF was that the activists would only employ passive resistance, and that the Israeli commandos who boarded the ship opened fire only after they felt that their lives were in danger.

    What did Israel gain by attacking the civilian population of Gaza last year and murdering over 1000 civilians? Israel's tactics are to terrorize, intimidate and bully.
    Israel is a rogue state that unfortunately has the backing of the U.S. Therefore it feels it can do whatever it likes, and that it is above the law. What the reaction to this latest atrocity has shown is the world - excluding the U.S - has had enough.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    michelle822 wrote:
    "But the remaining tunnels, about 200 to 300 according to most estimates, have become so efficient that shops all over Gaza are bursting with goods.

    Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup - long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade - are both cheap and widely available.

    "Everything I demand, I can get," says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet."

    Wow, there are really no depths to which you Israel apologists won't sink.

    The People of Gaza have been found to be living at levels of those of Sub-Saharan Africa. There is chronic malnutrition in Gaza as a direct result of the blockade and hundreds have died from being prevented access to vital medicines.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19521.html

    '..The report says the heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza's economy, compounded by a cost of living increase of at least 40 per cent, is causing "progressive deterioration in food security for up to 70 per cent of Gaza's population". That in turn is forcing people to cut household expenditures down to "survival levels".

    "Chronic malnutrition is on a steadily rising trend and micronutrient deficiencies are of great concern," it said...'

    Not to mention that the blockade itself is a crime against humanity.

    You people are truly despicable.
    Still, glad to know that the lessons of the Warsaw Ghetto have been learned. Never again? Sure. Just as long as the victims aren't Jewish.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html
    '...United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay said the Gaza blockade amounts to collective punishment of civilians, which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.

    She cited the conventions' requirement that "no protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2010
    Wow! What a surprise??!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... lotilla-us

    '...The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

    A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

    ...The Americans also blocked criticism of Israel for violating international law by assaulting a ship in international waters...'


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... el-inquiry

    '...Erdogan demanded the US government condemn the assault, but Washington blocked an attempt at the UN security council for an international inquiry, issuing a comparatively mild statement regretting the loss of life.

    ...Britain's foreign secretary, William Hague, said: "We agree with our EU partners and other international partners that there must be a full and impartial and independent investigation or inquiry in to these events."

    Asked if Israel would co-operate with an international investigation, Mark Regev, spokesman for the Israeli prime minister, Binjamin Netanyahu, told reporters such calls were "simply holding Israel to a standing ... that no one else in the international community is expected to abide by".

    Israel was expected to launch its own inquiry into the raid, which took place in international waters and which left seven commandos injured, some seriously. Previous investigations into military operations resulting in bloodshed have failed to satisfy critics.

    The chief of general staff, Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi, said there would also be a military inquiry into the mission. "You operated outstandingly," he told wounded soldiers in hospital in Haifa'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • michelleelise
    michelleelise Posts: 346
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There is chronic malnutrition in Gaza as a direct result of the blockade and hundreds have died from being prevented access to vital medicines.

    I said that in my first statement. You chose to ignore it.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... el-inquiry

    '...Speaking for the first time since the raid, survivors claimed the battle was one-sided with Israeli commandos using stun grenades, sound bombs, teargas, rubber bullets and live rounds.

    "It was like war," said Annette Groth, a German politician who was on the Mavi Marmara, the activists' flagship. "They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    michelle822 wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There is chronic malnutrition in Gaza as a direct result of the blockade and hundreds have died from being prevented access to vital medicines.

    I said that in my first statement. You chose to ignore it.

    You said: "I absolutely think some type of blockade is warranted."

    Actually, I think a blockade should be imposed on Israel. I think Israel should be subjected to the strictest sanctions like those that crippled Israel's friends in the Apartheid regime of South Africa.
  • michelleelise
    michelleelise Posts: 346
    edited June 2010
    Let me reiterate, for those who will bother to read.

    I think the blockade needs to be modified so the following are provided to the Gazans, who are victims in this:

    - Medicine
    - Health care (and required facilities)
    - Staples (includes food staples and living staples)
    - Fresh water (and I should have said sewage facilities. edit: both this and functioning health care facilities require some construction to be allowed)

    But I just don't see it as realistic to completely eliminate the whole blockade and let all shipments into Gaza unchecked.
    Post edited by michelleelise on
  • michelleelise
    michelleelise Posts: 346
    Byrnzie wrote:
    michelle822 wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There is chronic malnutrition in Gaza as a direct result of the blockade and hundreds have died from being prevented access to vital medicines.

    I said that in my first statement. You chose to ignore it.

    You said: "I absolutely think some type of blockade is warranted."

    Actually, I think a blockade should be imposed on Israel. I think Israel should be subjected to the strictest sanctions like those that crippled Israel's friends in the Apartheid regime of South Africa.

    Alright, well..we differ
  • michelleelise
    michelleelise Posts: 346
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Wow! What a surprise??!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... lotilla-us

    '...The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

    A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

    ...The Americans also blocked criticism of Israel for violating international law by assaulting a ship in international waters...'

    See, now this is just bullshit (the US position, not your post!)
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    michelle822 wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Wow! What a surprise??!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... lotilla-us

    '...The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

    A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

    ...The Americans also blocked criticism of Israel for violating international law by assaulting a ship in international waters...'

    See, now this is just bullshit (the US position, not your post!)

    Yep. But I predicted this yesterday. The U.S will always veto any resolution critical of Israel. This is where the problem lays. Nothing will ever change as long as the U.S let's Israel run amok. It's totally fucked-up. And it's not in Israel's best interest either. They cannot continue carrying out atrocities and waging war on their neighbours forever before someone decides to pay them back in kind.

    Norman Finkelstein is right, Israel has become a lunatic state:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h ... r_embedded
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Someone tell me if these people look like Metal crowbar and knife wielding thugs?:


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/freegaza/

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