Hezbollah

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yosi
yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
edited March 2010 in A Moving Train
Out of curiosity, how do people on this board feel about Hezbollah? In threads about Israel (this is not meant to be one, so please don't turn it into one) many of those who have nothing good to say about Israel defend Hezbollah, but I assume this is to a certain extent due to the fact that Israel is part of the discussion. What I'd like to know is how people here feel about Hezbollah within the context Lebanon? I have my own views, but I'm interested in seeing what others think before I share.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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  • flywallyfly
    flywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Sorry, I thought the title was "Lezbollah" when i first saw it. I was curious about the idea of a lesbian festival and what that entailed. Continue on.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=268

    Four years after its victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections, Hamas receives relatively positive ratings in Jordan (56% favorable) and Egypt (52%). However, Palestinians are more likely to give the group a negative (52%) than a positive (44%) rating. And reservations about Hamas are particularly common in the portion of the Palestinian territories it controls – just 37% in Gaza express a favorable opinion, compared with 47% in the West Bank.

    A survey conducted May 18 to June 16, 2009 by the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project also finds limited support for the Lebanese Shia organization Hezbollah.1 While most Palestinians (61%) and about half of Jordanians (51%) have a favorable view of Hezbollah, elsewhere opinions are less positive, including Egypt (43%) and Lebanon (35%). As with many issues in Lebanon, views of Hezbollah are sharply divided along religious lines: nearly all of the country's Shia Muslims (97%) express a positive opinion of the organization, while only 18% of Christians and 2% of Sunni Muslims feel this way.

    Meanwhile, Turks overwhelmingly reject both groups – just 5% give Hamas a positive rating and only 3% say this about Hezbollah. There is also little support among Israel's Arab population for either Hamas (21% favorable) or Hezbollah (27%). Outside of the Middle East, many in Pakistan, Indonesia, and Nigeria are unable to offer an opinion about these groups.

    Lukewarm support for extremist groups among Muslim publics is consistent with other Pew Global Attitudes findings in recent years, which have shown declining public support for extremism and suicide bombing among most Muslim populations. The same surveys have also found decreasing confidence in Osama bin Laden. In addition, a 2009 Pew Global Attitudes survey in Pakistan – a country currently plagued by extremist violence – found growing opposition to both al Qaeda and the Taliban.2
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    If it envolves jews being killed and the destruction of Isreal. Than I guarantee there are some on here that are all for them.

    Me personally ? I hope they all burn in hell or where ever it is they go.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    _outlaw wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.

    No stats are perfect, but nothing about these numbers clearly says they are biased. Ironic, though ... I post some stats that suggest that the Muslim world actually has a nuanced view of these groups, and you jump in to slam this position. Would it make you feel better if I posted some figures suggesting that everyone in the Middle East is pro-terrorism? You're the one who constantly accuses people of racism, yet you have a problem with numbers suggesting that not everyone in the Middle East has the same opinion.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    rebornFixer wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.

    No stats are perfect, but nothing about these numbers clearly says they are biased.
    actually, the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative certainly means that the numbers are biased.
    Ironic, though ... I post some stats that suggest that the Muslim world actually has a nuanced view of these groups, and you jump in to slam this position. Would it make you feel better if I posted some figures suggesting that everyone in the Middle East is pro-terrorism? You're the one who constantly accuses people of racism, yet you have a problem with numbers suggesting that not everyone in the Middle East has the same opinion.
    I don't have a problem with the numbers, but rather the people supplying the numbers.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I guess from my perspective, the main reason to criticize the source is to undermine the argument, or in this case, the numbers themselves. In this case, whatever the source, it is hard to see how the numbers could lie. If indeed the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people, you'd expect a serious split in terms of how these people view violent groups. That's exactly what these numbers show. In addition, they suggest that Sunnis have a serious problem with a mainly Shi'ite group, which is hardly a surprise, given the history between these groups in the Middle East. I also don't find it all that shocking to see that the Palestinians themselves have some concerns with Hamas. Regardless of what people well removed from the conflict think, Hamas often plays a role when the violence flares up, and surely some Palestinians must feel that violence doesn't help the situation (again, that's what these numbers suggest).
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I have no problem with an organization created to defend a population from outside attack.

    Also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Social_services
    Hezbollah...organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Social services have a central role in the party's programs. Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[18]

    Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah.[18][164] Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity,[165] Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association,[166] and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association.[167] Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.[168][169] Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.[170] In March 2006, an IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted: "Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members".[18]

    According to CNN: "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools."[171] In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."    [171] Also, after the war it competed with the Lebanese government to reconstruct destroyed areas. According to analysts like American University Professor Judith Swain Harik, Jihad al-Binaa has won the initial battle of hearts and minds, in large part because they are the most experienced in Lebanon in the field of reconstruction.[172]
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
    So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I have no problem with an organization created to defend a population from outside attack.

    Also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Social_services
    Hezbollah...organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Social services have a central role in the party's programs. Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[18]

    Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah.[18][164] Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity,[165] Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association,[166] and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association.[167] Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.[168][169] Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.[170] In March 2006, an IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted: "Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members".[18]

    According to CNN: "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools."[171] In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."    [171] Also, after the war it competed with the Lebanese government to reconstruct destroyed areas. According to analysts like American University Professor Judith Swain Harik, Jihad al-Binaa has won the initial battle of hearts and minds, in large part because they are the most experienced in Lebanon in the field of reconstruction.[172]

    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong? So Israel should get a pass because it does all the good things that a government "should do." And isn't the fact that one party in government maintains ITS OWN ARMY, seperate from the national army, a fundamental problem?!

    Oh, my bad, I forgot they have an "environmental department."
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    rebornFixer wrote:
    I guess from my perspective, the main reason to criticize the source is to undermine the argument, or in this case, the numbers themselves.
    Oh, now I understand what you are trying to say. In that case, yes I am trying to undermine the argument. I'll explain why because you don't look like you understand what I'm trying to say:
    first of all, you notice how it labels all those groups as 'Extremist Groups'. In fact, even in the poll it shows "favorable vs. unfavorable opinion of extremist groups". This label is just one of the many examples, that is quite blatantly shown by this entire poll, of how this poll has a political agenda of its own. A poll about an issue like this should not have its own opinion on the matter, it should be rather be done by a research organization that is not politically-affiliated and held to fit the standard of its donors. the fact that it has a political agenda leads me to my second point, which is how poorly it's done. When a poll is done by a research organization with a political agenda, it is made very vague with questions like "do you have a favorable or unfavorable view about x?" which is such a stupid and ambiguous question when you consider how many possibilities that question can be concerning. social issues, religious, foreign policy, etc, are all important to different people in a different way. the idea to think that combining all these questions into something as stupid as favorable/unfavorable is pretty ridiculous. all that, and the numbers are probably fixed. anyway I've grown tired of trying to explain this, I think my point should be clear now.
  • concertaholicshirt
    concertaholicshirt Posts: 263
    _outlaw wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    ...some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
    ...the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative...
    Wow... I learn something new every day. Didn't realize that Albright was a "conservative".

    :roll: :roll: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    I mean... if Chomsky, Eddie and Tim Robbins are the baseline for what one would call the "center", then I guess she is "conservative", but.......
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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    concertaholicshirt wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    ...some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
    ...the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative...
    Wow... I learn something new every day. Didn't realize that Albright was a "conservative".

    :roll: :roll: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    I mean... if Chomsky, Eddie and Tim Robbins are the baseline for what one would call the "center", then I guess she is "conservative", but.......
    Actually I was talking about the Pew Research Center which funded and ran the poll.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    prfctlefts wrote:
    If it envolves jews being killed and the destruction of Isreal. Than I guarantee there are some on here that are all for them.

    Me personally ? I hope they all burn in hell or where ever it is they go.

    I'll be waiting in hell for YOU PRFCTLEFTS...holding the gates wide open for U. And I'll make sure to burn your ass EVERYDAY....you make some of the dumbest comments on any thread....but have no fear, I'll be waiting for you in hell with one BIG ass smile as you enter my domain....dumb fuck
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?

    Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?

    Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.


    but isn't the IDF in the occupied territories (ie maintaining an army on soil that is not Israel's)? so it's wrong for 1 side but not the other?
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
    I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.


    it wasn't about Hamas, either, and yet you had no problem with that :roll:

    i'm just saying Israel does exactly what you were complaining about, no need to cry about it
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,149
    Again, you know very well that mentioning Israel (despite my explicit request as the initiator of this thread that it not be brought up) almost always derails the conversation. Please just drop it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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