Hahahaha seriously? Where do you get this nonsense? If they wanted to do this they could a long time ago when they had numbers among Shiites, Sunnis and Christians. Maybe through birth rates after 100 years the Shiites will have majority in Lebanon compared to Christians and Sunnis and perhaps then Hizb-Allah itself might have majority stakes in the government. Until then, good luck. As much as you would like to believe that EVERY Arab country is run by dictators and terrorists, Lebanon is actually pure democracy even more than israel as in shown by the ability of any group to get elected. Good luck to israeli arabs getting elected ay!
The comment about pure democracy is debatable, but I freely concede that Lebanon is a very different political climate as compared to many other Middle Eastern states. By and large, Lebanon actually has a reputation for being diverse and progressive. All this other stuff about me stereotyping Arab countries has no basis in anything I have posted on here, and because of this, the next conclusion was that you were being a dick and painting me with the same overgeneralized brush that some people in America paint you with. Someone PMed me today and asked if I had ever travelled in the Middle East. No, I have not, but when I do, Lebanon ranks high on my list of places to see, along with Israel. I'd like to see Gaza and the West Bank as well, and yes, I stand to learn a lot from seeing this stuff first hand.
Reborn, I promise you this, if you go to the middle east, you will comeback a completely changed man. Lebanon I hear is beautiful so definitely go there. But you better be ready mentaly if you go to gaza. God I would love to know when you comeback if you ever end up going. I'd love to hear what you'd have to say then, not now. It's all different when you're there in person, when you see it through your own eyes and not the fucken bullshit media. Go, talk to families. Dnt be afraid of the boogyman Arabs. And hey, make sure to buy clothes 1-2 sizes bigger cuz you will gain a lot of weight from all the food those "evil" Arabs will be feeding you....and another advice for you, stay out of the way of bulldozers. For some strange reason the gas pedal seems to jam and you mite get run over...
By the way, if you are indeed serious about debating this issue, I'll go ahead and ask ... Is it true or is it not true that in 2008, Hezbollah forces attacked Druze villages without provocation (only to be repulsed)? This article describes the incident: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42450
I am not clear on how this was a lie. The Druze themselves seem unsure about exactly why the attacks happened, although they speculate that they were motivated by religious expansionism.
Yes this was part of the May attacks I mentioned previously. Hizbullah and the opposition were "retaliating" against government laws that would see them lose ground. As I recall I said they should have been punished for this. The point is there is a story why this happened it was not out of the blue and it does not happen all the time. The reason why it was repulsed was because the Druze knew it was going to happen. Hizbullah at the time had already attacked several Sunni areas in Beirut (which is why they have lost numbers among that group). The Druze were waiting and they unleashed hell on Hizbullah. Violence which was really out of this world. Hizbullah backpedaled from the mountains after those incidents and focused on Beirut. EVentually they withdrew after the government withdrew the laws.
Secondly, I did indeed claim that Hezbollah was a bona fide terrorist group at one time, and that I wasn't sure that the designation does not apply now. Again, how is this statement a lie? The group has been linked to suicide bombings and kidnappings in the 1980s and early 90s, and sorry, but calling the rocket attacks on Israeli towns in 2006 "terrorism" fits the definition, at least if one wishes to call Israeli aircraft bombing Lebanese towns the same thing. A common response to accusations of Palestinian terrorism is "what about Israel killing civilians"? OK, fair enough, but the logic must work in the other direction too.
This is a point I will get to in another post of yours. The logic does work in both directions but there is an initiator as well.
Third, I claimed that Hezbollah provoked Israel in 2006. Again, how is this a lie? At worst, this is an interpretation, and one based on more than a little common sense. It is not clear to me how exactly the 2006 invasion of Lebanon would have occured without a rationale in the form of an attack on Israeli troops. The Israelis had drawn up plans for a possible invasion of Lebanon, and presumably chose to enact said plans when the opportunity arouse. How can Hezbollah be held completely blameless in this scenario? Rightfully or wrongfully, an armed group backed by Iran and Syria right on Israel's doorstep is going to be perceived as a threat, and in this case, said group is not even the Lebanese army proper. And then this group, already perceived as a problem, basically confirms the view by attacking the IDF directly? How is that NOT going to lead to a response? I am not arguing that Hezbollah is directly responsible for the deaths of Lebanese civilians. That is on the Israelis. My problem is with the view that they are somehow completely blameless, even though they started the 2006 war itself. Israel chose a heavy-handed and immoral response to provocation, but the provocation was there, in this case.
You choose to see it that way but I pointed out that you are forgetting everything that has happened before that. Israel was provoking Lebanon and Hizbullah daily. When hizbullah acted with the strong response, the israelis found their excuse to initiate a plan they had been planning for months.
A while ago I posted some survey results that suggest that Hezbollah enjoys widespread support only amongst Shi'ites in Lebanon, and that perceptions of the group are decidedly mixed in the Arab world. _outlaw questioned the source of the data, and OK, I concede he does have a point, one should question any source. Its still not clear to me why respondants to this particular survey would lie, nor is it clear to me why so-called right wingers would deliberately falsify such results ... Its not such a stretch to believe that people in the Middle East have varying opinions of Hezbollah. Not everyone views them as a helpful group of freedom fighters. The aforementioned Druze appear to view them as dangerous fanatics, even though the Druze themselves have also fought against Israel. Christians and Sunnis in Lebanon largely do not support Hezbollah. Yes, I am basing these arguments on data from external sources and not on living in the country itself. If the latter is some necessary precursor to participating in these discussions, fine. That's means only two or three people are allowed to post, though.
Hizbullah enjoyed support among many Shiites. They used to enjoy support by a lot of Sunnis as well during the occupation period. They eventually started losing ground as the years passed and finally culminated in the May 7th attack which saw Sunnis turn against Hizbullah. There is definitely mixed feelings about Hizbullah in the middle east. Hell, my own family don't like them.
Along a different vein, Hezbollah has denounced some attacks on civilians, and in 2006 (I think), Nasrallah decried attacks on American civilians. Apparently some hardcore Al Qaida types actually consider Hezbollah apostate. Hezbollah runs various social services, and although some of these are to care for families of Hezbollah fighters killed in battle (and thus not really selfless), there's an element of taking care of their own (Shi'ites) that one can understand and perhaps admire.
Hizbullah is incredibly complex to understand if you have not lived in Lebanon. Which is why labeling them as a terrorist group as western media does does not fit.
On this specific point: First of all, you are correct in that a fair chunk of the IDF military deaths resulted from rocket attacks on military bases (I cannot recall the exact figure, but I think around 10-15 IDF troops died not in direct battle with Hez but when a rocket struck a staging area, and that 10-15 is a fairly big chunk of the total). And if you wish to argue that firing rockets into another country (including civilian areas) is not terrorism but instead an act of war, fine. Maybe so. Were the direct bombings of civilian areas during WW-II (for instance) terrorism, or a manifestation of "total war"? Hard to say, I'd argue. In all honestly, I MIGHT lean towards labeling these acts as a particularly reprehensible act of war rather than terrorism per se. If this is the argument, however, the Israeli bombings of Lebanon fall under the exact same category as the Hez rocket attacks (i.e., they were not terrorism). Like you said, such attacks are an offensive strategy that every country does in times of war, and many of the Israeli strikes landed on military and infrastructure targets. My point is that these actions are not radically different in terms of motive, whether one dubs them terrorism or acts of war. Either way, many people die and its horrible. The Israelis killed way more people because they have more and better weapons. But again, its either terrorism or act of war, and "effectiveness" has nothing to do with the motive or morals behind the action.
My point was if you want to label Hizbullah's acts terrorism then you must label israels acts terrorism beforehand. This only applies to acts they have committed outside their borders.
Another point I was trying to make was Hizbullah might have hit civilian targets in israel and some infrastructure but it was mostly military. Israels response on the other hand was completely sadistic. They were trying to turn the Lebanese against Hizbullah with such a vicious response. It didn't work.
I have mentioned this before but I'll mention it again. The israelis destroyed every bridge in Lebanon, every single one. Bombed it to rubble. They hit the electricity company on purpose so the oil would leak into the ocean. Contaminating everything. They reduced much of south Lebanon to rubble. Complete towns became rubble. They also reduced a big block of southern Beirut to rubble.
They were on the Israeli side of the border fence. I recognize that exactly who owns what land in this part of the world remains an open question, but the Israeli troops were on their own side of the so-called Blue Line, which was not determined solely by Israel but also by Lebanese surveyers and UN personnel. In addition, Hezbollah launched rocket attacks on the town of Sholmi and on Israeli military positions as a diversion. And yes, I am aware of the history of cross-border raids. Israeli paratroopers lauched an attack near the Shebaa Farms (Lebanese territory) in 2005, and in the same year four Hezbollah were killed attacking the IDF near Ghajar. There were also two or three other unsuccessful attempts on the part of Hezbollah to capture IDF troops. At risk of sounding facile, might it be easier if both sides kept on their respective sides of the fence?
I don't need to repeat but Israeli incursions into Lebanon are daily. Whether it be by ground, by air, or by sea.
The comment about pure democracy is debatable, but I freely concede that Lebanon is a very different political climate as compared to many other Middle Eastern states. By and large, Lebanon actually has a reputation for being diverse and progressive. All this other stuff about me stereotyping Arab countries has no basis in anything I have posted on here, and because of this, the next conclusion was that you were being a dick and painting me with the same overgeneralized brush that some people in America paint you with. Someone PMed me today and asked if I had ever travelled in the Middle East. No, I have not, but when I do, Lebanon ranks high on my list of places to see, along with Israel. I'd like to see Gaza and the West Bank as well, and yes, I stand to learn a lot from seeing this stuff first hand.
A trip to the middle east will not only be eye-opening but will be incredibly enjoyable too. Mediterranean sea, amazing food, good looking women, great history and natural resources galore.
[I'd like to see Gaza and the West Bank as well, and yes, I stand to learn a lot from seeing this stuff first hand.
pffft learn? fuck that. Gaza doesn't need people to visit to LEARN. they need people to HELP them. it's almost impossible to get in. you think you are just gonna mosey on in and have a look the fuck around?
you might get into the West Bank, but i hope you have fuck all chance of getting into Gaza. there are people that genuinely care about the Palestinians locked up in the cage that Israel has created for them. they are trying unsuccessfully to enter Gaza to provide humanitarian aid, and are not allowed entry. from what i see of your posts here, you spend the majority of your time apologizing for Israel's disgusting behaviour. i never see you show genuine sympathy or compassion for the innocent victims. i do see you fight to the death to debate a fucking word like apartheid though, hoping it might show Israel in a better light.
maybe you can go the the West Bank and hang out with the ugliest old hag i have ever seen. she was an Israeli settler who was harassing a Palestinian lady, calling her a whore and telling her to go back to her cage. an IDF soldier just stood there and watched this unfold and did nothing at all to stop this crazy woman. it goes on every day. disgusting.
if you somehow do manage to get in, don't take any gifts for the children. we have a list as long as our arm of what we can and can't do for the children there. i can send stickers. big fucken deal. stickers. no toys, no clothing, nothing of any value, because if we do he will get attacked because the people there have absolutely nothing. they don't need people to visit to learn. they need people that care and want to help.
there you go. you've just learned something. and you don't even need to visit.
we have a list as long as our arm of what we can and can't do for the children there.
Don't want to be nosy but... when you say 'we', are you part of an organisation trying to help in Gaza? No need to answer if you don't want to.
that's ok, it's not being nosy. initially i just started out by sponsoring two children in the middle east and its grown from there.
ages ago i came across Anna Baltzer. she is a Jewish-American activist for Palestinian human rights who has experienced the desperate situation of the Palestinians first hand. through Anna, i became involved with MECA (Middle East Childrens Alliance). i do what i can. it's always been about the children for me.
Actually its your fabrications and lies that make me act this way towards your posts, with a dash of "your hypocrisy regarding arabs" and not my personal experiences. I'm sorry if "information that I have gathered from sources" does not cut it in a debate especially when I know otherwise having lived in the fucking country. Good luck to you when you do decide to contribute seriously to an actual debate.
Basic reading comprehension skills should suggest that I have made more than my fair share of contributions on the Train, so fuck off. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.
fuck off ey??? It must be your time of the month Joe P. I think there are a few women on this board who can help you out with your PMS. But I seriously doubt they will. To be honest with you, I dnt think anybody on this thread, except your buddy yosi, who would help you out with anything. Dude, i mentioned how good it would be for you to go to the middle east and visit in an earlier thread. I take it back. They dnt need you to visit or go and learn. They have enough assholes there already and one more asshole full of shit like you, not enough toilet paper to go around. So please, take this to heart for I believe I speak for a few, not all, but a few people on this thread- Reborn, you my friend :roll: , fuck off. And stay away from the middle east. They dnt need or want you there. Trust me, the big bad Arab boogyman will feed you to his starving devil children... :roll:
fuck off ey??? It must be your time of the month Joe P. I think there are a few women on this board who can help you out with your PMS. But I seriously doubt they will. To be honest with you, I dnt think anybody on this thread, except your buddy yosi, who would help you out with anything. Dude, i mentioned how good it would be for you to go to the middle east and visit in an earlier thread. I take it back. They dnt need you to visit or go and learn. They have enough assholes there already and one more asshole full of shit like you, not enough toilet paper to go around. So please, take this to heart for I believe I speak for a few, not all, but a few people on this thread- Reborn, you my friend :roll: , fuck off. And stay away from the middle east. They dnt need or want you there. Trust me, the big bad Arab boogyman will feed you to his starving devil children... :roll:
Chill out, dude. NoK and I got pretty heated but the discussion has since become fairly civil. And stop calling me Joe the Plummer, for the reasons I've already explained, and also because it makes you sound like a total tool, unless you happen to be joking. Remember when we were joking back and forth and I called you Abdul (joking being the operative word)? Calm down. I am not saying that I was being really stable yesterday when NoK and I were arguing, but you make me look like Buddha. Did you read these posts in a backwards order?
@ Triumphant:
I have no idea about how easy or difficult it is to go to Gaza, as I have only researched going to Lebanon and Israel. Suffice to say, I'd be interested in going, but if its not realistic, its not realistic.
you might get into the West Bank, but i hope you have fuck all chance of getting into Gaza. there are people that genuinely care about the Palestinians locked up in the cage that Israel has created for them. they are trying unsuccessfully to enter Gaza to provide humanitarian aid, and are not allowed entry. from what i see of your posts here, you spend the majority of your time apologizing for Israel's disgusting behaviour. i never see you show genuine sympathy or compassion for the innocent victims. i do see you fight to the death to debate a fucking word like apartheid though, hoping it might show Israel in a better light.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion about my views on the Middle East, but your attempts to paint me as completely unempathic regarding the Palestinian plight are wrong. I recognize that you have far more direct experience than I do, in terms of what you've seen, and I respect that and will defer to that. Thus my interest to learn what its really like over there. Obviously your strong convinctions come from somewhere. I will say that I regret debating with you guys a lot of the time, though. I really do. Its gets one branded racist, oblivious to suffering, or Joe the Plummer, depending on the party in question. All of which are wrong. Oh well. This place is supposed to be educational, and probably fun on some level. Sometimes it is the former ... often, lately, it is neither.
ages ago i came across Anna Baltzer. she is a Jewish-American activist for Palestinian human rights who has experienced the desperate situation of the Palestinians first hand.
annas website http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/index.html
People... click on the link. This may open some eyes.
Dude, I'm no tool but I do love them. Matter of fact I saw Maynard and puscifer last nite in NYC. I couldve sworn he was wearing a Hezbollah shirt to......or was he wearing it at the Hezbollah meeting that you were strangely not invited to....... :roll:
ages ago i came across Anna Baltzer. she is a Jewish-American activist for Palestinian human rights who has experienced the desperate situation of the Palestinians first hand.
annas website http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/index.html
People... click on the link. This may open some eyes.
some people choose to live with there eyes closed redrock. It's to difficult for them to open there eyes. Better off walking amonst the sheep.......(throw in some sheep noise for dramatization)
Dude, I'm no tool but I do love them. Matter of fact I saw Maynard and puscifer last nite in NYC. I couldve sworn he was wearing a Hezbollah shirt to......or was he wearing it at the Hezbollah meeting that you were strangely not invited to....... :roll:
Seriously. I apologize to all concerned for telling NoK to fuck off. Let's let that drop. If you wanted to be fair, you could call him out for claiming that I never make any decent contributions on here, and for that castration remark. I don't wish to engage in any more pissing matches with you, either. You're a hilarious guy when you're high.
Comments
usually i step in here and say yeah well im finishing it but i dont think thatll work here.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The comment about pure democracy is debatable, but I freely concede that Lebanon is a very different political climate as compared to many other Middle Eastern states. By and large, Lebanon actually has a reputation for being diverse and progressive. All this other stuff about me stereotyping Arab countries has no basis in anything I have posted on here, and because of this, the next conclusion was that you were being a dick and painting me with the same overgeneralized brush that some people in America paint you with. Someone PMed me today and asked if I had ever travelled in the Middle East. No, I have not, but when I do, Lebanon ranks high on my list of places to see, along with Israel. I'd like to see Gaza and the West Bank as well, and yes, I stand to learn a lot from seeing this stuff first hand.
Yes this was part of the May attacks I mentioned previously. Hizbullah and the opposition were "retaliating" against government laws that would see them lose ground. As I recall I said they should have been punished for this. The point is there is a story why this happened it was not out of the blue and it does not happen all the time. The reason why it was repulsed was because the Druze knew it was going to happen. Hizbullah at the time had already attacked several Sunni areas in Beirut (which is why they have lost numbers among that group). The Druze were waiting and they unleashed hell on Hizbullah. Violence which was really out of this world. Hizbullah backpedaled from the mountains after those incidents and focused on Beirut. EVentually they withdrew after the government withdrew the laws.
This is a point I will get to in another post of yours. The logic does work in both directions but there is an initiator as well.
You choose to see it that way but I pointed out that you are forgetting everything that has happened before that. Israel was provoking Lebanon and Hizbullah daily. When hizbullah acted with the strong response, the israelis found their excuse to initiate a plan they had been planning for months.
Hizbullah enjoyed support among many Shiites. They used to enjoy support by a lot of Sunnis as well during the occupation period. They eventually started losing ground as the years passed and finally culminated in the May 7th attack which saw Sunnis turn against Hizbullah. There is definitely mixed feelings about Hizbullah in the middle east. Hell, my own family don't like them.
Hizbullah is incredibly complex to understand if you have not lived in Lebanon. Which is why labeling them as a terrorist group as western media does does not fit.
My point was if you want to label Hizbullah's acts terrorism then you must label israels acts terrorism beforehand. This only applies to acts they have committed outside their borders.
Another point I was trying to make was Hizbullah might have hit civilian targets in israel and some infrastructure but it was mostly military. Israels response on the other hand was completely sadistic. They were trying to turn the Lebanese against Hizbullah with such a vicious response. It didn't work.
I have mentioned this before but I'll mention it again. The israelis destroyed every bridge in Lebanon, every single one. Bombed it to rubble. They hit the electricity company on purpose so the oil would leak into the ocean. Contaminating everything. They reduced much of south Lebanon to rubble. Complete towns became rubble. They also reduced a big block of southern Beirut to rubble.
I don't need to repeat but Israeli incursions into Lebanon are daily. Whether it be by ground, by air, or by sea.
A trip to the middle east will not only be eye-opening but will be incredibly enjoyable too. Mediterranean sea, amazing food, good looking women, great history and natural resources galore.
pffft learn? fuck that. Gaza doesn't need people to visit to LEARN. they need people to HELP them. it's almost impossible to get in. you think you are just gonna mosey on in and have a look the fuck around?
you might get into the West Bank, but i hope you have fuck all chance of getting into Gaza. there are people that genuinely care about the Palestinians locked up in the cage that Israel has created for them. they are trying unsuccessfully to enter Gaza to provide humanitarian aid, and are not allowed entry. from what i see of your posts here, you spend the majority of your time apologizing for Israel's disgusting behaviour. i never see you show genuine sympathy or compassion for the innocent victims. i do see you fight to the death to debate a fucking word like apartheid though, hoping it might show Israel in a better light.
maybe you can go the the West Bank and hang out with the ugliest old hag i have ever seen. she was an Israeli settler who was harassing a Palestinian lady, calling her a whore and telling her to go back to her cage. an IDF soldier just stood there and watched this unfold and did nothing at all to stop this crazy woman. it goes on every day. disgusting.
if you somehow do manage to get in, don't take any gifts for the children. we have a list as long as our arm of what we can and can't do for the children there. i can send stickers. big fucken deal. stickers. no toys, no clothing, nothing of any value, because if we do he will get attacked because the people there have absolutely nothing. they don't need people to visit to learn. they need people that care and want to help.
there you go. you've just learned something. and you don't even need to visit.
Don't want to be nosy but... when you say 'we', are you part of an organisation trying to help in Gaza? No need to answer if you don't want to.
ages ago i came across Anna Baltzer. she is a Jewish-American activist for Palestinian human rights who has experienced the desperate situation of the Palestinians first hand. through Anna, i became involved with MECA (Middle East Childrens Alliance). i do what i can. it's always been about the children for me.
annas website
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/index.html
MECA
http://www.mecaforpeace.org/article.php ... pe&type=17
That's cool. Thanks for the links - will check them out when I get home.
fuck off ey??? It must be your time of the month Joe P. I think there are a few women on this board who can help you out with your PMS. But I seriously doubt they will. To be honest with you, I dnt think anybody on this thread, except your buddy yosi, who would help you out with anything. Dude, i mentioned how good it would be for you to go to the middle east and visit in an earlier thread. I take it back. They dnt need you to visit or go and learn. They have enough assholes there already and one more asshole full of shit like you, not enough toilet paper to go around. So please, take this to heart for I believe I speak for a few, not all, but a few people on this thread- Reborn, you my friend :roll: , fuck off. And stay away from the middle east. They dnt need or want you there. Trust me, the big bad Arab boogyman will feed you to his starving devil children... :roll:
Chill out, dude. NoK and I got pretty heated but the discussion has since become fairly civil. And stop calling me Joe the Plummer, for the reasons I've already explained, and also because it makes you sound like a total tool, unless you happen to be joking. Remember when we were joking back and forth and I called you Abdul (joking being the operative word)? Calm down. I am not saying that I was being really stable yesterday when NoK and I were arguing, but you make me look like Buddha. Did you read these posts in a backwards order?
@ Triumphant:
I have no idea about how easy or difficult it is to go to Gaza, as I have only researched going to Lebanon and Israel. Suffice to say, I'd be interested in going, but if its not realistic, its not realistic.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion about my views on the Middle East, but your attempts to paint me as completely unempathic regarding the Palestinian plight are wrong. I recognize that you have far more direct experience than I do, in terms of what you've seen, and I respect that and will defer to that. Thus my interest to learn what its really like over there. Obviously your strong convinctions come from somewhere. I will say that I regret debating with you guys a lot of the time, though. I really do. Its gets one branded racist, oblivious to suffering, or Joe the Plummer, depending on the party in question. All of which are wrong. Oh well. This place is supposed to be educational, and probably fun on some level. Sometimes it is the former ... often, lately, it is neither.
People... click on the link. This may open some eyes.
some people choose to live with there eyes closed redrock. It's to difficult for them to open there eyes. Better off walking amonst the sheep.......(throw in some sheep noise for dramatization)
Seriously. I apologize to all concerned for telling NoK to fuck off. Let's let that drop. If you wanted to be fair, you could call him out for claiming that I never make any decent contributions on here, and for that castration remark. I don't wish to engage in any more pissing matches with you, either. You're a hilarious guy when you're high.