Hezbollah

yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
edited March 2010 in A Moving Train
Out of curiosity, how do people on this board feel about Hezbollah? In threads about Israel (this is not meant to be one, so please don't turn it into one) many of those who have nothing good to say about Israel defend Hezbollah, but I assume this is to a certain extent due to the fact that Israel is part of the discussion. What I'd like to know is how people here feel about Hezbollah within the context Lebanon? I have my own views, but I'm interested in seeing what others think before I share.
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  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Sorry, I thought the title was "Lezbollah" when i first saw it. I was curious about the idea of a lesbian festival and what that entailed. Continue on.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=268

    Four years after its victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections, Hamas receives relatively positive ratings in Jordan (56% favorable) and Egypt (52%). However, Palestinians are more likely to give the group a negative (52%) than a positive (44%) rating. And reservations about Hamas are particularly common in the portion of the Palestinian territories it controls – just 37% in Gaza express a favorable opinion, compared with 47% in the West Bank.

    A survey conducted May 18 to June 16, 2009 by the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project also finds limited support for the Lebanese Shia organization Hezbollah.1 While most Palestinians (61%) and about half of Jordanians (51%) have a favorable view of Hezbollah, elsewhere opinions are less positive, including Egypt (43%) and Lebanon (35%). As with many issues in Lebanon, views of Hezbollah are sharply divided along religious lines: nearly all of the country's Shia Muslims (97%) express a positive opinion of the organization, while only 18% of Christians and 2% of Sunni Muslims feel this way.

    Meanwhile, Turks overwhelmingly reject both groups – just 5% give Hamas a positive rating and only 3% say this about Hezbollah. There is also little support among Israel's Arab population for either Hamas (21% favorable) or Hezbollah (27%). Outside of the Middle East, many in Pakistan, Indonesia, and Nigeria are unable to offer an opinion about these groups.

    Lukewarm support for extremist groups among Muslim publics is consistent with other Pew Global Attitudes findings in recent years, which have shown declining public support for extremism and suicide bombing among most Muslim populations. The same surveys have also found decreasing confidence in Osama bin Laden. In addition, a 2009 Pew Global Attitudes survey in Pakistan – a country currently plagued by extremist violence – found growing opposition to both al Qaeda and the Taliban.2
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
  • If it envolves jews being killed and the destruction of Isreal. Than I guarantee there are some on here that are all for them.

    Me personally ? I hope they all burn in hell or where ever it is they go.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    _outlaw wrote:
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.

    No stats are perfect, but nothing about these numbers clearly says they are biased. Ironic, though ... I post some stats that suggest that the Muslim world actually has a nuanced view of these groups, and you jump in to slam this position. Would it make you feel better if I posted some figures suggesting that everyone in the Middle East is pro-terrorism? You're the one who constantly accuses people of racism, yet you have a problem with numbers suggesting that not everyone in the Middle East has the same opinion.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    _outlaw wrote:
    Some interesting stuff from the Muslim world:
    only that's not from the Muslim world, that's from some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.

    No stats are perfect, but nothing about these numbers clearly says they are biased.
    actually, the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative certainly means that the numbers are biased.
    Ironic, though ... I post some stats that suggest that the Muslim world actually has a nuanced view of these groups, and you jump in to slam this position. Would it make you feel better if I posted some figures suggesting that everyone in the Middle East is pro-terrorism? You're the one who constantly accuses people of racism, yet you have a problem with numbers suggesting that not everyone in the Middle East has the same opinion.
    I don't have a problem with the numbers, but rather the people supplying the numbers.
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I guess from my perspective, the main reason to criticize the source is to undermine the argument, or in this case, the numbers themselves. In this case, whatever the source, it is hard to see how the numbers could lie. If indeed the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people, you'd expect a serious split in terms of how these people view violent groups. That's exactly what these numbers show. In addition, they suggest that Sunnis have a serious problem with a mainly Shi'ite group, which is hardly a surprise, given the history between these groups in the Middle East. I also don't find it all that shocking to see that the Palestinians themselves have some concerns with Hamas. Regardless of what people well removed from the conflict think, Hamas often plays a role when the violence flares up, and surely some Palestinians must feel that violence doesn't help the situation (again, that's what these numbers suggest).
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I have no problem with an organization created to defend a population from outside attack.

    Also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Social_services
    Hezbollah...organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Social services have a central role in the party's programs. Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[18]

    Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah.[18][164] Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity,[165] Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association,[166] and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association.[167] Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.[168][169] Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.[170] In March 2006, an IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted: "Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members".[18]

    According to CNN: "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools."[171] In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."
    [171] Also, after the war it competed with the Lebanese government to reconstruct destroyed areas. According to analysts like American University Professor Judith Swain Harik, Jihad al-Binaa has won the initial battle of hearts and minds, in large part because they are the most experienced in Lebanon in the field of reconstruction.[172]
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I have no problem with an organization created to defend a population from outside attack.

    Also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Social_services
    Hezbollah...organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Social services have a central role in the party's programs. Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[18]

    Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah.[18][164] Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity,[165] Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association,[166] and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association.[167] Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.[168][169] Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.[170] In March 2006, an IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted: "Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members".[18]

    According to CNN: "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools."[171] In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."
    [171] Also, after the war it competed with the Lebanese government to reconstruct destroyed areas. According to analysts like American University Professor Judith Swain Harik, Jihad al-Binaa has won the initial battle of hearts and minds, in large part because they are the most experienced in Lebanon in the field of reconstruction.[172]

    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong? So Israel should get a pass because it does all the good things that a government "should do." And isn't the fact that one party in government maintains ITS OWN ARMY, seperate from the national army, a fundamental problem?!

    Oh, my bad, I forgot they have an "environmental department."
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    I guess from my perspective, the main reason to criticize the source is to undermine the argument, or in this case, the numbers themselves.
    Oh, now I understand what you are trying to say. In that case, yes I am trying to undermine the argument. I'll explain why because you don't look like you understand what I'm trying to say:
    first of all, you notice how it labels all those groups as 'Extremist Groups'. In fact, even in the poll it shows "favorable vs. unfavorable opinion of extremist groups". This label is just one of the many examples, that is quite blatantly shown by this entire poll, of how this poll has a political agenda of its own. A poll about an issue like this should not have its own opinion on the matter, it should be rather be done by a research organization that is not politically-affiliated and held to fit the standard of its donors. the fact that it has a political agenda leads me to my second point, which is how poorly it's done. When a poll is done by a research organization with a political agenda, it is made very vague with questions like "do you have a favorable or unfavorable view about x?" which is such a stupid and ambiguous question when you consider how many possibilities that question can be concerning. social issues, religious, foreign policy, etc, are all important to different people in a different way. the idea to think that combining all these questions into something as stupid as favorable/unfavorable is pretty ridiculous. all that, and the numbers are probably fixed. anyway I've grown tired of trying to explain this, I think my point should be clear now.
  • _outlaw wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    ...some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
    ...the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative...
    Wow... I learn something new every day. Didn't realize that Albright was a "conservative".

    :roll: :roll: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    I mean... if Chomsky, Eddie and Tim Robbins are the baseline for what one would call the "center", then I guess she is "conservative", but.......
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  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    _outlaw wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    ...some stupid "research" conducted by the likes of Madeline Albright.
    ...the fact that they are funded and run by people who are politically conservative...
    Wow... I learn something new every day. Didn't realize that Albright was a "conservative".

    :roll: :roll: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    I mean... if Chomsky, Eddie and Tim Robbins are the baseline for what one would call the "center", then I guess she is "conservative", but.......
    Actually I was talking about the Pew Research Center which funded and ran the poll.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    prfctlefts wrote:
    If it envolves jews being killed and the destruction of Isreal. Than I guarantee there are some on here that are all for them.

    Me personally ? I hope they all burn in hell or where ever it is they go.

    I'll be waiting in hell for YOU PRFCTLEFTS...holding the gates wide open for U. And I'll make sure to burn your ass EVERYDAY....you make some of the dumbest comments on any thread....but have no fear, I'll be waiting for you in hell with one BIG ass smile as you enter my domain....dumb fuck
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?

    Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Does mean that any group that also does good things gets a pass for everything it does wrong?

    And what is it exactly that they do wrong?

    Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.


    but isn't the IDF in the occupied territories (ie maintaining an army on soil that is not Israel's)? so it's wrong for 1 side but not the other?
    don't compete; coexist

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  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.


    it wasn't about Hamas, either, and yet you had no problem with that :roll:

    i'm just saying Israel does exactly what you were complaining about, no need to cry about it
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Again, you know very well that mentioning Israel (despite my explicit request as the initiator of this thread that it not be brought up) almost always derails the conversation. Please just drop it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    yosi wrote:
    Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.

    Hezbollah holds a minority of government seats (I cannot recall how many, exactly, but the proportion is small), but my understanding is that Hezbollah ministers have de facto veto power when it comes to government decisions. This makes non-Hezbollah Lebanese rather uncomfortable, given the pull Iran and Syria have over this group. Hezbollah is supported around 97% of the Shi'ite population, but only around 20% of the Christians and 2% of Sunnis! Hezbollah has a history of attacking minority groups such as the Druze, while the Lebanese military proper stands by and watches. Some have argued that Hezbollah gave up terrorism in the 1990s ... I'll concede that the group does a lot more than carry out attacks, but I'd also note that firing rockets into civilian areas during 2006 does not support the notion that this group has completely stopped using terrorist tactics. As argued to death in another thread, Hezbollah provoked Israel into executing an invasion plan and the Lebanese civilian population suffered for it. I do envision a scenario in which Hezbollah takes over the Lebanese government entirely, at which point they will need to be managed at a political level.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.

    You don't make the rules here pal. I'd get used to that if I were you.

    Some people here choose to look at the bigger picture as it helps to put things in their proper perspective.

    Though I understand why you have a problem with this and so keep trying to get everyone to play your game.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Again, you know very well that mentioning Israel (despite my explicit request as the initiator of this thread that it not be brought up) almost always derails the conversation. Please just drop it.

    No.


    It's not possible to discuss Hezbollah without mentioning Israel because as you know Hezbollah was created as a response to Israeli aggression against Lebanon.

    Like I said before, you don't make the rules around here.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    On a previous thread started by Pepe there was vocal support for the contention put forward by Pepe that threads should stick to the topic defined by the thread's initiator. It was pointed out that this is actually the rule of the board. You can check that for yourself. So it isn't me making the rules. It's Kat. Pepe, if you aren't entirely hypocritical you can back me up on this.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    And Byrnzie, I'd be interested in knowing why you have yet to respond to my contention that Hezbollah keeping it's own private army, which it has in the past used to kill and intimidate its Lebanese political rivals, is not problematic. This is an issue that has nothing to do with Israel, and I expect you to discuss it as such.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?

    IDF hezbollah hamas.. whats the difference???

    ooh ooh i know. the IDF are instruments of state sanctioned terror under the guise of the defense of the state of israel... whereas the other two are just terrorists.
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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    yosi wrote:
    So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?

    IDF hezbollah hamas.. whats the difference???

    ooh ooh i know. the IDF are instruments of state sanctioned terror under the guise of the defense of the state of israel... whereas the other two are just terrorists.

    couldn't have said it any better. Why is it ok for one country to be "freedom fighters" but the other is "terrorists." Hmmmmmm, isn't that basically BULLSHIT??? Come on now...some credit please, were not dumb. This is so bullshit, Arabs are fucken terrorists and everyone else are fucken angels. Enough already.
  • alivegirlalivegirl Posts: 124
    It appears to me that some people are still bitter that Hezbollah ( the underdog ) managed to kick some Israeli ass a few years ago. :clap:
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Again, this thread is not about Israel. If that is what you want to talk about please go to one of the thousands of other threads devoted to the subject.

    I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • alivegirlalivegirl Posts: 124
    yosi wrote:
    I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.



    Hypocrisy speaks volumes also.
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