Hezbollah

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

Leaving Israel aside entirely, they maintain a separate army that they use to intimidate and kill their political rivals in Lebanon. And they do so with the backing of Syria and Iran, which essentially means that they make a mockery of Lebanon's sovereignty, since they maintain an army on Lebanese soil that serves the interests of two foreign powers. We could start there.

Hezbollah holds a minority of government seats (I cannot recall how many, exactly, but the proportion is small), but my understanding is that Hezbollah ministers have de facto veto power when it comes to government decisions. This makes non-Hezbollah Lebanese rather uncomfortable, given the pull Iran and Syria have over this group. Hezbollah is supported around 97% of the Shi'ite population, but only around 20% of the Christians and 2% of Sunnis! Hezbollah has a history of attacking minority groups such as the Druze, while the Lebanese military proper stands by and watches. Some have argued that Hezbollah gave up terrorism in the 1990s ... I'll concede that the group does a lot more than carry out attacks, but I'd also note that firing rockets into civilian areas during 2006 does not support the notion that this group has completely stopped using terrorist tactics. As argued to death in another thread, Hezbollah provoked Israel into executing an invasion plan and the Lebanese civilian population suffered for it. I do envision a scenario in which Hezbollah takes over the Lebanese government entirely, at which point they will need to be managed at a political level.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

I specifically stated at the outset that this thread is not meant to be about Israel, so please stop trying to move the thread in that direction. I'm not going to respond substantively to this because I don't want to contribute to your attempt to move the discussion off track.

You don't make the rules here pal. I'd get used to that if I were you.

Some people here choose to look at the bigger picture as it helps to put things in their proper perspective.

Though I understand why you have a problem with this and so keep trying to get everyone to play your game.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Again, you know very well that mentioning Israel (despite my explicit request as the initiator of this thread that it not be brought up) almost always derails the conversation. Please just drop it.

No.


It's not possible to discuss Hezbollah without mentioning Israel because as you know Hezbollah was created as a response to Israeli aggression against Lebanon.

Like I said before, you don't make the rules around here.

yosi

On a previous thread started by Pepe there was vocal support for the contention put forward by Pepe that threads should stick to the topic defined by the thread's initiator. It was pointed out that this is actually the rule of the board. You can check that for yourself. So it isn't me making the rules. It's Kat. Pepe, if you aren't entirely hypocritical you can back me up on this.

yosi

And Byrnzie, I'd be interested in knowing why you have yet to respond to my contention that Hezbollah keeping it's own private army, which it has in the past used to kill and intimidate its Lebanese political rivals, is not problematic. This is an issue that has nothing to do with Israel, and I expect you to discuss it as such.

catefrances

yosi wrote:

So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?

IDF hezbollah hamas.. whats the difference???

ooh ooh i know. the IDF are instruments of state sanctioned terror under the guise of the defense of the state of israel... whereas the other two are just terrorists.

badbrains

catefrances wrote:

yosi wrote:

So because you have no problem with how the organization was founded you have no problem with anything they do now? Is this a general principle? Do you generally excuse forever from all moral and ethical considerations every group that was founded in a manner you find suitable?

IDF hezbollah hamas.. whats the difference???

ooh ooh i know. the IDF are instruments of state sanctioned terror under the guise of the defense of the state of israel... whereas the other two are just terrorists.

couldn't have said it any better. Why is it ok for one country to be "freedom fighters" but the other is "terrorists." Hmmmmmm, isn't that basically BULLSHIT??? Come on now...some credit please, were not dumb. This is so bullshit, Arabs are fucken terrorists and everyone else are fucken angels. Enough already.

alivegirl

It appears to me that some people are still bitter that Hezbollah ( the underdog ) managed to kick some Israeli ass a few years ago.

yosi

Again, this thread is not about Israel. If that is what you want to talk about please go to one of the thousands of other threads devoted to the subject.

I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.

alivegirl

yosi wrote:

I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.

Hypocrisy speaks volumes also.

NoK

Its funny how one discusses something and proves that some facts that were mentioned were false yet a couple of weeks later the same facts are used. I'm not really interested in discussing this topic any further but since you use false information to further your arguments I will have to call you out.

yosi wrote:

that Hezbollah keeping it's own private army, which it has in the past used to kill and intimidate its Lebanese political rivals

The fact is Hizb-Allah keeps a private army because of the aggressions of Israel against Lebanon you cannot separate the two. The Lebanese Army is too weak to do anything against israel and the group has been successful in defending Lebanon against Israeli aggression. Can you provide me with information on the political rivals they have killed? I believe the only group they have intimidated was a small Shiite group that was more moderate. That group tried to run for elections in the south but failed miserably. But besides the fact that there may have been some intimidation, it didn't amount to much because the group ran and lost, mainly because Shiites in the south actually support Hizb-Allah (as my own experience and the numbers prove). If you are referring to May 7th the opposition led by Hizb-Allah (this included Amal-Shiites and Aoun-Christians) retaliated against laws the majority Government was trying to implement that would affect their position in the government. Surely the retaliation was over the top and they should have been punished for it but the situation was not intimidation.

rebornFixer wrote:

Hezbollah holds a minority of government seats (I cannot recall how many, exactly, but the proportion is small), but my understanding is that Hezbollah ministers have de facto veto power when it comes to government decisions. This makes non-Hezbollah Lebanese rather uncomfortable, given the pull Iran and Syria have over this group. Hezbollah is supported around 97% of the Shi'ite population, but only around 20% of the Christians and 2% of Sunnis!

No Hizb-Allah do not have de facto veto power, the opposition does mainly because they have the numbers in the government. The opposition is made up of Aoun (Christians), Hizb-Allah (Shiites), Amal (Shiites), and a couple of other minority orthodox Christian and Muslim groups.

rebornFixer wrote:

Hezbollah has a history of attacking minority groups such as the Druze, while the Lebanese military proper stands by and watches.

Are you talking about the civil war? Everyone attacked everyone so you cannot single out Hizb-Allah. Other than that I'm not sure what you are getting at since there are Druze groups in the opposition that is led by Hizb-Allah.

rebornFixer wrote:

Some have argued that Hezbollah gave up terrorism in the 1990s ... I'll concede that the group does a lot more than carry out attacks, but I'd also note that firing rockets into civilian areas during 2006 does not support the notion that this group has completely stopped using terrorist tactics.

Do you want to go back to the numbers in those terror tactics? How the israelis out did the group by far when it came to terror tactics? Hizb-Allah cannot by definition launch a full-scale offensive attack into israel so the only way of retaliation is to send their dodgy rockets from Lebanon and to defend inside Lebanon. They defended within Lebanon a lot more than they did launch rockets as the israeli military deaths vs. civilian deaths point towards. The idea of sending rockets into a country is not purely to terrorise but its an offensive strategy which every country does in times of war. This is shown by the fact that a lot of these rockets actually landed on military and infrastructure targets. But obviously you are a hypocrite when it comes to these issues because you believe Arabs do these things to terrorise but Westerners and israelis do it out of defense and the "ugliness of war".

rebornFixer wrote:

As argued to death in another thread, Hezbollah provoked Israel into executing an invasion plan and the Lebanese civilian population suffered for it.

Provoked? Of course you're only going to start at the kidnapping of the soldiers because that fits well with your argument but you obviously fail to sight the daily provocations israel does to Lebanon by crossing the border or assembling out posts in the green zone, or airspace incursions, all which have been documented by the UN. By the way, have you ever thought of how the soldiers got kidnapped in the first place? and what their position would have to have been in order for them to be easily kidnapped by Hizb-Allah members?

rebornFixer wrote:

I do envision a scenario in which Hezbollah takes over the Lebanese government entirely, at which point they will need to be managed at a political level.

Hahahaha seriously? Where do you get this nonsense? If they wanted to do this they could a long time ago when they had numbers among Shiites, Sunnis and Christians. Maybe through birth rates after 100 years the Shiites will have majority in Lebanon compared to Christians and Sunnis and perhaps then Hizb-Allah itself might have majority stakes in the government. Until then, good luck. As much as you would like to believe that EVERY Arab country is run by dictators and terrorists, Lebanon is actually pure democracy even more than israel as in shown by the ability of any group to get elected. Good luck to israeli arabs getting elected ay!

Have fun discussing..

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

And Byrnzie, I'd be interested in knowing why you have yet to respond to my contention that Hezbollah keeping it's own private army, which it has in the past used to kill and intimidate its Lebanese political rivals, is not problematic. This is an issue that has nothing to do with Israel, and I expect you to discuss it as such.

Keeping a private army in order to defend the populace from an aggressive Israeli army seems perfectly o.k to me. Self-defense against outside aggression is a right underwritten in international law.

As for killing and intimidating opponents maybe you should provide some evidence of this?

As for this issue having nothing to do with Israel, this is of course utter nonsense, and I won't play according to your rules, as I've already said.

redrock

yosi wrote:

This is an issue that has nothing to do with Israel, and I expect you to discuss it as such.

Hezbollah has everything to do with Israel and cannot be discussed without. You said you were a historian (or studying history or rubbing shoulders with historians - whatever..) - well.. check out your history.

badbrains

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

And Byrnzie, I'd be interested in knowing why you have yet to respond to my contention that Hezbollah keeping it's own private army, which it has in the past used to kill and intimidate its Lebanese political rivals, is not problematic. This is an issue that has nothing to do with Israel, and I expect you to discuss it as such.

Keeping a private army in order to defend the populace from an aggressive Israeli army seems perfectly o.k to me. Self-defense against outside aggression is a right underwritten in international law.

As for killing and intimidating opponents maybe you should provide some evidence of this?

As for this issue having nothing to do with Israel, this is of course utter nonsense, and I won't play according to your rules, as I've already said.

kind of like what the Mossad do ey??????

badbrains

So one country can drop white phosphorus and drop "bunker busters" but the other country can't fire rockets? Why because one countrys full of fucken "Arabs" while the others full of Semites??? Oh, ok, that sounds fair to me. Fuck those Arabs cuz they're ALL terrorists...it's the truth cuz the media said so... :roll:

catefrances

yosi wrote:

Again, this thread is not about Israel. If that is what you want to talk about please go to one of the thousands of other threads devoted to the subject.

I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.

of course there is fault with any state or organisation who uses terror or extreme violence as a means to an end is at fault. and that includes the IDF, hezbollah and hamas.
i think what you have to take on board yosi is that neither hamas nor hezbollah have acted in a vacuum. i under your rationale but which came first, the chicken or the egg. in this case that isnt even an issue as far as im concerned. you want us to belive that both hamas and hezbollah are 'evil' and have acted without justice cause. well what the hell is just cause in this case?
dont treat us as if were myopic in our views. we get it.

rebornFixer

NoK wrote:

Its funny how one discusses something and proves that some facts that were mentioned were false yet a couple of weeks later the same facts are used. I'm not really interested in discussing this topic any further but since you use false information to further your arguments I will have to call you out.
Have fun discussing..

Nothing I said was false, and I am not going to debate the issues any further, because I am tired of ignorant statements to the effect that I am a "hypocrite". I thought you said you had better things to do than post here. Feel free to follow through on said statement. Suffice to say that I have nothing against Lebanon or its people. You're a bit of a dick, but there's probably many other people from the area who can calmly discuss the issues without casting aspirations on other people's character.

rebornFixer

alivegirl wrote:

It appears to me that some people are still bitter that Hezbollah ( the underdog ) managed to kick some Israeli ass a few years ago.

It appears to me that you still have a lot of maturing to do.

yosi

catefrances wrote:

yosi wrote:

Again, this thread is not about Israel. If that is what you want to talk about please go to one of the thousands of other threads devoted to the subject.

I'm shocked, though, at how utterly shameless you all are. Regardless of what you think about Israel you should be able to recognize the faults in a group like Hezbollah. The fact that you all refuse to do so speaks volumes.

of course there is fault with any state or organisation who uses terror or extreme violence as a means to an end is at fault. and that includes the IDF, hezbollah and hamas.
i think what you have to take on board yosi is that neither hamas nor hezbollah have acted in a vacuum. i under your rationale but which came first, the chicken or the egg. in this case that isnt even an issue as far as im concerned. you want us to belive that both hamas and hezbollah are 'evil' and have acted without justice cause. well what the hell is just cause in this case?
dont treat us as if were myopic in our views. we get it.

Unfortunately not everyone does get it. I applaud you for not being myopic in your views, but clearly there are many people on this thread who would rather see no evil, hear no evil, etc. Saying that it's ok for a group that has used terror tactics to maintain its own army seperate from the regular army of the sovereign state it operates in because Israel may act aggressively towards Lebanon is like saying that it would be ok for Al Qaida to maintain a standing army in Pakistan because India might act aggressively towards them. If the goal is to deter Israel than why not simply have Hezbollah give up its arms and have their fighters join the regular Lebanese army. Clearly the fact that Hezbollah refuses to do this has much more to do with their desire to maintain their political power in Lebanon rather than with their desire to protect the country from Israel.

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

Unfortunately not everyone does get it. I applaud you for not being myopic in your views, but clearly there are many people on this thread who would rather see no evil, hear no evil, etc. Saying that it's ok for a group that has used terror tactics to maintain its own army seperate from the regular army of the sovereign state it operates in because Israel may act aggressively towards Lebanon is like saying that it would be ok for Al Qaida to maintain a standing army in Pakistan because India might act aggressively towards them. If the goal is to deter Israel than why not simply have Hezbollah give up its arms and have their fighters join the regular Lebanese army. Clearly the fact that Hezbollah refuses to do this has much more to do with their desire to maintain their political power in Lebanon rather than with their desire to protect the country from Israel.

I am just done with the allegations of hypocrisy. I post a fairly non-objectable list of facts about Hezbollah that I culled from various sources, not including my own arse, and apparently this is a huge problem. People are only happy if Israel is deemed to be 100% the problem, and since I do not agree with this position, no common ground is possible and debate is a waste of everyone's time.