CCTV footage of the hitsquad in Dubai

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    To begin with I'm not the one getting into the specific definitions of the term genocide, so this is really the pot calling the kettle black with "slippery lawyer tricks."

    There's nothing slippery about referring to the official definition of a word. The official definition of the word genocide is perfectly clear and unambiguous.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    'Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.'

    How are Israel's actions deliberate or systematic, and how has it resulted in the destruction of the entire Palestinian people? The Palestinian population is growing, not shrinking, so either Israel, one of the most advanced militaries in the world, are just a bunch of brain-dead idiots who can't figure out to "point then shoot," or they aren't committing genocide. The fact that the UN says it, or some other group says it, doesn't mean it's true. It's true if it is actually happening, which it quite obviously isn't.

    Seeing as you chose to be so selective with the facts, I'll paste it here again for you. Try reading all of it this time, instead of picking out one point and then attempting to turn that one point on it's head by twisting it's meaning:

    'Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.'
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    By the way, why the hatred towards lawyers? Perhaps because there is a stereotype about Sheister Jew lawyers? Just musing...(a joke, lest anyone not have a sense of humor)) I was talking about the term's cultural effects, which should have been patently obvious.

    Maybe I've been exposed to too much of Alan Dershowitz's oily, self-serving, bullshit.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Why is it so important to you guys that the specific label "genocide" be used?
    i use it in this instance because i know it's warranted. what other word can i use to describe it?

    why is it so important to you that i have used it?

    Clearly you disagree, so what word would you use to describe the ongoing illegal, brutal, inhuman, cruel and systematic destruction of ordinary Palestinians, if it's not genocide?

    I'd lean towards a word like "oppression" when speaking more generally, and use other words or phrases when referring to specific acts of violence ("civilian deaths in Gaza"). I don't know ... The word "genocide" was become a buzzword in certain circles, much like "terrorism". An emotionally-laden term that people use differently, depending on their political leanings. I am not the thought police, and if people want to think of it as genocide, they will, regardless of my view. I don't feel that this term applies here, but I guess that boils down to one's view regarding whether or not there IS a systematic attempt to destroy Palestinian culture going on. I think there are atrocities happening, but I question the existance of an overall plan to exterminate either the Palestinian people or their culture.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I'd say that what happened to the American Indian and the Australian Aborigine was genocide. There are still American Indians and Australian Aboriginals alive today, but that doesn't mean that these races didn't suffer genocide. Just read the above definition of the word again if there's any confusion.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    'Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.'

    How are Israel's actions deliberate or systematic, and how has it resulted in the destruction of the entire Palestinian people? The Palestinian population is growing, not shrinking, so either Israel, one of the most advanced militaries in the world, are just a bunch of brain-dead idiots who can't figure out to "point then shoot," or they aren't committing genocide. The fact that the UN says it, or some other group says it, doesn't mean it's true. It's true if it is actually happening, which it quite obviously isn't.

    Look at the definition again.... in part....

    Israels actions are deliberate and systematic and there is genocide. The rest of the world sees it, the culprit doesn't.

    If you say there is no genocide and one of the reasons given is that the Palestinian population is growing, can I then say the same thing about jews? That there was no genocide of the jews by the nazis because the jewish/israeli population is growing. Or maybe there was no genocide of the jews because the nazis did not kill the ENTIRE jewish population? Flawed reasoning.
    it really is flawed reasoning. i expressed these thoughts the other day and was ignored, apart from the one underhanded hint at anti-semitism, which is pretty standard really when someone is trying to discredit you and silence you because you have different views to theirs. what else can they do when they can't win an argument based on the facts?
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    rebornFixer wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    Why is it so important to you guys that the specific label "genocide" be used?
    i use it in this instance because i know it's warranted. what other word can i use to describe it?

    why is it so important to you that i have used it?

    Clearly you disagree, so what word would you use to describe the ongoing illegal, brutal, inhuman, cruel and systematic destruction of ordinary Palestinians, if it's not genocide?

    I'd lean towards a word like "oppression" when speaking more generally, and use other words or phrases when referring to specific acts of violence ("civilian deaths in Gaza"). I don't know ... The word "genocide" was become a buzzword in certain circles, much like "terrorism". An emotionally-laden term that people use differently, depending on their political leanings. I am not the thought police, and if people want to think of it as genocide, they will, regardless of my view. I don't feel that this term applies here, but I guess that boils down to one's view regarding whether or not there IS a systematic attempt to destroy Palestinian culture going on. I think there are atrocities happening, but I question the existance of an overall plan to exterminate either the Palestinian people or their culture.
    how can you not question the existance of an overall plan to exterminate either the Palestinian people or their culture?

    we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., (yay us :roll: ), that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, kills women and children, uses white phospherous on heavily populated areas, batters down villagers front doors in the dead of night at gun-point, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. murders, starves, assassinates, poisons their food, withholds sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison, daily arrests of Palestinians, rape of prisoners, trafficking in organs of the dead Palestinians, roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools. witholding of health care that results in peoples deaths... i could go on all night. it's a disgrace. sickening. leave these people alone, get the fuck away from them. most of them are ordinary, beautiful people, including many women and children who just want to lead a peaceful happy life. only animals would treat another human being like these people are treated.

    typing all of that out makes me feel sick. this is real, it is happening. it's happening NOW. how can people not care? i don't understand. are people going to sit back and wait until they are all completely wiped out and then say oh dear, maybe i should've done something???????. is it only THEN they will admit to genocide?? when it's too late?

    every single one of the deniers has blood on their hands. they know what's happening and chose to ignore it, or they didn't give a fuck. take your pick.

    and how do you explain this?

    landloss.jpg

    You still want to question the existance of an overall plan to exterminate either the Palestinian people or their culture?
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    'Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.'

    How are Israel's actions deliberate or systematic, and how has it resulted in the destruction of the entire Palestinian people? The Palestinian population is growing, not shrinking, so either Israel, one of the most advanced militaries in the world, are just a bunch of brain-dead idiots who can't figure out to "point then shoot," or they aren't committing genocide. The fact that the UN says it, or some other group says it, doesn't mean it's true. It's true if it is actually happening, which it quite obviously isn't.

    Look at the definition again.... in part....

    Israels actions are deliberate and systematic and there is genocide. The rest of the world sees it, the culprit doesn't.

    If you say there is no genocide and one of the reasons given is that the Palestinian population is growing, can I then say the same thing about jews? That there was no genocide of the jews by the nazis because the jewish/israeli population is growing. Or maybe there was no genocide of the jews because the nazis did not kill the ENTIRE jewish population? Flawed reasoning.

    Flawed reasoning?! Are you serious?! The Jewish population is growing NOW, but during the Holocaust it was decreasing by, oh, I don't know, SIX MILLION PEOPLE!!! And I think it is pretty clear that the "in part" is meant to be understood as a significant enough part to signal an intention at total annihilation, otherwise the term is meaningless, and one could claim that the killing of ten people is genocide. The fact that the Palestinian population is growing significantly WHILE THE PURPORTED GENOCIDE IS TAKING PLACE, and that the total number of Palestinians killed by Israel has never been a truly significant percentage of the population, and the fact that there is no evidence that Israel has ever made a concerted effort to systematically kill all, most, or even a significant segment of the Palestinian population gives the lie to the charge.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    Triumphant, you are entirely ignoring historical context. You are looking at the results of history while ignoring the context that brought about those results. Most of the things that Israel does to the Palestinians...roadblocks, curfews, arrests, assassinations, etc...were instituted piecemeal as attempts to stop terrorism, not as part of some planned attempt at destroying the Palestinian people. And the maps you posted are also without context. With the exception of the last map (showing loss of land in the West Bank post-'67) all the loss of land occurred during wars that Israel either did not initiate (1948), or initiated with clear causus belli and to preempt an attack they were sure was coming (1967). Obviously the Palestinians have been oppressed terribly, but they have not been the victims of genocide.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    By the way, people like to throw around that anti-semitism is used as a charge to silence dissenting voices.
    What I find so funny about this is that no one is silenced. You just get a bunch of dissenting voices who get all self-righteous about the attempts of the big bad Jews to censor them. It's really absurd.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    Triumphant, you are entirely ignoring historical context. You are looking at the results of history while ignoring the context that brought about those results. Most of the things that Israel does to the Palestinians...roadblocks, curfews, arrests, assassinations, etc...were instituted piecemeal as attempts to stop terrorism, not as part of some planned attempt at destroying the Palestinian people. And the maps you posted are also without context. With the exception of the last map (showing loss of land in the West Bank post-'67) all the loss of land occurred during wars that Israel either did not initiate (1948), or initiated with clear causus belli and to preempt an attack they were sure was coming (1967). Obviously the Palestinians have been oppressed terribly, but they have not been the victims of genocide.
    every single thing you have raised here, i have debated to death with you already. and shown you why your logic is flawed.

    and damn right the Palestinians have been oppressed terribly. understatement of the fucking century. so are you doing anything about it apart from making excuses for Israels brutal crimes?
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    By the way, people like to throw around that anti-semitism is used as a charge to silence dissenting voices.
    What I find so funny about this is that no one is silenced. You just get a bunch of dissenting voices who get all self-righteous about the attempts of the big bad Jews to censor them. It's really absurd.
    i know i'm not silenced.

    i said that people TRY with the anti-semitism comments so they can try and discredit and silence anyone that has different views to theirs.

    i never said it worked.

    and i'm far from self-righteous. i don't give a shit about the affect this has on me, and trust me it's brutal. heartbreaking when i worry my ass off about my families adopted child over there. god knows how he is doing right now, then i see people like you make excuses for the monsters that ensure he lives in the conditions he does.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    Dude, you just don't know what you're talking about. Monsters? My cousin who just finished her army service, which she spent working with and teaching children from broken homes many of whom had serious learning disabilities, has been involved with an organization called "Seeds for Peace" for years. It brings Israelis and Arabs together so they can see past the politics and actually get to know one another. Jeff and Judy, two friends who live in Jerusalem, have been active in the peace movement for years now. They have numerous Palestinian friends, some of whom they have introduced to me, and have literally put their lives on the line to travel into parts of the West Bank that are dangerous for Israelis to try to help these people in whatever small way they can. My cousin Ben is currently doing his army service in Egoz, and my other cousin Eitan is serving in Duvduvan, two of Israel's most elite combat units. They are two of the kindest, sweetest, most gentle people I know. Neither of them has ever said anything to me to imply that they hate Palestinians, and they certainly wouldn't want to kill anyone unless they absolutely had to. My friend Shira, a secular Jew from Tel Aviv who did her army service as a tour guide in the Old City in Jerusalem, is an avowed peacenik. She knows all the Arab merchants in the Old City by name, and tried to convey the humanity of the city's Arab residents to the soldiers she gave tours to.

    I could go on forever. These people are not monsters. They're just people trying to live their lives. It just so happens that their country is caught up in a seemingly endless conflict with the people next door. They aren't monsters. They're just trying to survive and defend themselves.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    And you haven't "shown me" why my logic is flawed. You have disagreed with me, and I don't think in a very convincing manner. Convincing yourself is not the same thing as convincing others.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    OK ... So people got REALLY irritated with me a while back when I suggested that some of the threads on here veer close to sympathizing with Hamas. And now, everyone is freaking out and losing sleep because someone who lives by a violent ideology and who plans terror attacks got bumped off. Now, we are not talking about kids or other civilians in Palestine (to which I can understand the outrage). Instead, we are all pissed because Israel killed a known terrorist? Someone explain this stuff to me, I am truly confused now. Does all the outrage really stem from "violating international law"?

    troller.jpg
    well you're easily confused then. if you read my posts you will see that's what i'm saying. Israels actions show they do think they are above international law. and if you're not referring to me then who are you referring to?

    now we've cleared that up, what exactly are you trying to say? don't play games. i'm not in the mood to be fucked with tonight,

    maybe you might wanna answer the question i've asked so many times here. why does Israel continue to act without any respect for international law?

    and you know what else. i'm so tired of these threads turning into some message board chest thumping arena where people want to pick you to pieces by trying to insinuate that there's a bigger agenda. that's bullshit and it's not true, i don't think there is anyone here who has a hidden agenda.

    all i've ever cared about is the welfare of the ordinary Palestinian people who lives are fucked because of Israels illegal, brutal and inhumane occupation. they do think they are above international law. the subject of this thread is just another example of it.


    You sound like an anti-Semite to me with all your B.S. post on this subject Im glad these guys did what they did. The guy was a fucking terrorist. Good for Isreal.
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    prfctlefts wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    rebornFixer wrote:
    OK ... So people got REALLY irritated with me a while back when I suggested that some of the threads on here veer close to sympathizing with Hamas. And now, everyone is freaking out and losing sleep because someone who lives by a violent ideology and who plans terror attacks got bumped off. Now, we are not talking about kids or other civilians in Palestine (to which I can understand the outrage). Instead, we are all pissed because Israel killed a known terrorist? Someone explain this stuff to me, I am truly confused now. Does all the outrage really stem from "violating international law"?

    troller.jpg
    well you're easily confused then. if you read my posts you will see that's what i'm saying. Israels actions show they do think they are above international law. and if you're not referring to me then who are you referring to?

    now we've cleared that up, what exactly are you trying to say? don't play games. i'm not in the mood to be fucked with tonight,

    maybe you might wanna answer the question i've asked so many times here. why does Israel continue to act without any respect for international law?

    and you know what else. i'm so tired of these threads turning into some message board chest thumping arena where people want to pick you to pieces by trying to insinuate that there's a bigger agenda. that's bullshit and it's not true, i don't think there is anyone here who has a hidden agenda.

    all i've ever cared about is the welfare of the ordinary Palestinian people who lives are fucked because of Israels illegal, brutal and inhumane occupation. they do think they are above international law. the subject of this thread is just another example of it.


    You sound like an anti-Semite to me with all your B.S. post on this subject Im glad these guys did what they did. The guy was a fucking terrorist. Good for Isreal.


    asking why Israel is allowed to be above international law and saying one cares about the welfare of the ordinary Palestinian people makes one an anti-semite??
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    I think he's saying that your unhealthy obsession with Israel (and yes you seem much more interested in bashing Israel than in the Palestinians, who seem to be the convenient hook) perhaps denotes something darker. Please feel free to respond, though, no one here is trying to silence you. :)
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    You know what Im talking about. There have been so many postings by people on here against jewish people that it's sickening.
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    prfctlefts wrote:
    You know what Im talking about. There have been so many postings by people on here against jewish people that it's sickening.


    can you point me to any? i don't recall ever seeing any postings against jewish people...i've seen them about the israeli government and idf but not jewish people
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    I think he's saying that your unhealthy obsession with Israel (and yes you seem much more interested in bashing Israel than in the Palestinians, who seem to be the convenient hook) perhaps denotes something darker. Please feel free to respond, though, no one here is trying to silence you. :)

    and what are you implying it denotes? don't beat around the bush
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'

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