That's fine. I agree with that. Only there are people who actually do hate Jews, or perhaps hold prejudices that are somewhat more genteel, but are still prejudices, who express their prejudice through criticism of Israel. That is not to say that criticism of Israel is invalid, only that not everyone who is criticizing is doing it for noble reasons. Is this really that hard to understand? Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. They may not even be aware of how their views are shaped by prejudice. But to my ear the criticism of Israel by certain people on this thread sounds at times so shrill and hysterical that I can't help but wonder what is going on.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
That's fine. I agree with that. Only there are people who actually do hate Jews, or perhaps hold prejudices that are somewhat more genteel, but are still prejudices, who express their prejudice through criticism of Israel. That is not to say that criticism of Israel is invalid, only that not everyone who is criticizing is doing it for noble reasons. Is this really that hard to understand? Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. They may not even be aware of how their views are shaped by prejudice. But to my ear the criticism of Israel by certain people on this thread sounds at times so shrill and hysterical that I can't help but wonder what is going on.
Actually, though, nobody cares how you choose to rationalize labeling people on this Message Board as racists. Nobody's buying it. So I suggest you try whistling another tune.
Given that Israel is discussed here in absolutely unrealistic terms I have absolutely no problem treating this board as a joke with regard to this topic.
Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. .
This is a vile statement. But seeing that throughout the threads, your stance seems to be if one has counter arguments to yours, they are jew haters. Once we understand that, I guess this kind of statement, as disgusting that it may be, should not be taken personally. Talk about a twisted view of things.
Israel's conduct can, should and will come under the scrutiny of discussion and where sensitivity is justified it will be given, where it is not, it won't.
And if that's what the anti-Israel crowd on here did, great. To put it bluntly, it ain't like that. You are describing a balanced approach that many on here do not take.
Balance is a matter of ones interpretation of someone else's expressed opinion. Yosi's problem is that he seems outnumbered so here comes the invocation that because members post the negativity about Israel's activities they are somehow full of hate, anti-semitic and prejudice, part of some anti-Israel crowd on the MT.
How many times have we discussed abortions and taxes issues and somehow the threads turned into welfare discussions, lazy people not wanting to work, people in ghettos living off of our taxes. I didn't see anyone say hey, you should be more sensitive. In fact the majority didn't care if their comments were insensitive, hateful or prejudice, they viewed their expressions as being tried of political correctness. No one claimed there was an anti-black crowd on MT.
What a person takes from any discussion, again, is up to them, but to simply pull out the anti-semitic card because the discussions reflect negatively on Israel's activities is just bullshit.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Why is it that virtually everyone here seems to ignore entirely everything I say unless it suits them. I AM NOT ACCUSING EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME OF ANTISEMITISM. No one has so far denied the general claim, which I think is accurate, that in the world there are Anti-Semites, and there are also critics of Israel, and while not all (or even most) critics of Israel are Anti-Semites, all Anti-Semites are going to be critics of Israel. THEREFORE, among those who are legitimate critics of Israel there will be those who are Anti-Semitic. You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned. Why? If we accept that there are those who criticize Israel not out of noble intentions, but out of prejudice towards Jews, and if we truly feel that Antisemitism is to be rejected, then shouldn't we be vigilant against the intrusion of Antisemitism into an otherwise legitimate discussion of Israel's faults? I am not trying to shut down debate. On the contrary, I would simply like the debate to be free of the sort of hateful speech that debases legitimate criticism's of Israel.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I don't think I haven't owned up to it. I have suspicions about the prejudices of certain people on this board. I don't know these people personally, so I am trying to be careful to state that these are only suspicions, and not outright accusations. And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I don't think I haven't owned up to it. I have suspicions about the prejudices of certain people on this board. I don't know these people personally, so I am trying to be careful to state that these are only suspicions, and not outright accusations. And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear.
i don't know everyone personally either but i've seen posts from the regular posters on israel threads on a plethora of subjects and i would be surprised if someone here was an anti-semite (according to my definition which is someone who hates all jews) ... if you live in north america - it's pretty hard not to know a bunch of jews ..
I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,
Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...
First off, Antisemitism doesn't have to mean a raging hatred of Jews. It can be a much more subtle prejudice, the same way that racism against blacks can manifest in subtle ways, even among people who know black people, are friends with black people, and don't think of themselves (and would be shocked to be thought of) as racists. Second, there are many people on these threads who are not from North America, where, I feel, Antisemitism is less generally tolerated. As far as I can tell there are many posters from Europe and a few from the Middle East, and I'm very sorry to say that Antisemitism seems to be on the rise in Europe, and is absolutely virulent in the Middle East, which is only to say that people from these places may be exposed to, and may have internalized prejudices without even being aware of it.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.
Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument. It's that victim mentality again. 'You're saying nasty things because you hate me (ie a jew)'
I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,
Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...
Like I said, I don't know these people personally, which is why I am unwilling to level a definitive accusation. You're right that I wouldn't be happy to be called a racist with the regard to the Palestinians, but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation, because I think there is enough blame to go around, and I recognize that the Palestinians have certainly been victimized. I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.
Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument.
I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored, and I have been called, essentially, a heartless monster making excuses for Nazi war criminals for posting my opinions. Again, I do not make these "accusations" lightly, or because I lack serious arguments. I truly feel that there is an undercurrent of prejudice that runs through some of the posts on these threads that I find disturbing.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
'As far as you can tell'.. exactly. You are making assumptions and unfounded accusations. Does one need a tie to the middle east to feel passionately about the situation? No. Whatever situation - not limited to Israel. I feel passionately about what is happening in the middle east. Do I have ties there? Maybe, maybe not. I feel passionately about what is happening in Burma. Again... do I have ties there? Rubbish reasoning covering your shortfalls.
I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored,.
Your arguments are blinkered and excuses for Israels actions. And you haven't been ignored, just had 'counter-arguments' that you did not like or had no response to (apart from going around in circles) and therefore decided to play the race card.
I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
first of all - we've been discussing this topic for years and the very premise that this situation is equally to blame on both sides has long been dismissed here as purely lacking in foundation ... forgive us but we see israel as the primary bad guy here and nothing anyone has posted as shown otherwise ...
people have a personal connection to humanity and whether it be gaza or myanmar - people who believe in human rights believe so around the world ... it just so happens the discussion is israel/palestine ... i'm pretty sure the same people would be against the junta in Burma or the anywhere else where basic human decency is being violated ...
You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.
Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument.
I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored, and I have been called, essentially, a heartless monster making excuses for Nazi war criminals for posting my opinions. Again, I do not make these "accusations" lightly, or because I lack serious arguments. I truly feel that there is an undercurrent of prejudice that runs through some of the posts on these threads that I find disturbing.
You have just gone from trying to have your points understood and rationally discussed - to drama queen. Yosi you have a "NEED" to believe people here on the MT hate jews and hate Israel as a whole.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Ok, but I think, from what I have seen with my own two eyes, that you guys are entirely off base, and beyond that, you are unwilling to really look at the situation without bias. I know you disagree, and that's fine. I really don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I just wish that instead of simply dismissing everything I've said as excuses without merit that some of you would pause long enough to examine the situation with a fewer preconceived assumptions, because I truly believe that the situation is much more complicated and nuanced than you give it credit for.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I just wish that instead of simply dismissing everything I've said as excuses without merit .
You've had plenty of researched counter arguments to what you have been posting. If, because you are not happy with these and you consider them as rubbish, you decide people have been dismissing everything you said, that is your problem.
How can one take 'you guys are totally off base' as a valid argument?
i've read your views and i don't doubt it is complicated and nuanced but whether or not there is any legitimacy in your points - what is indisputable is that every day palestinians are subjugated to treatment at the hands of Israel that are crimes against humanity ... that has been going on for far too long and it's only getting worse ... so, while you may want to pick at issues - this daily oppression CAN NOT be tolerated by any means ... i challenge you to justify denying hungry children food and water ... sick people medicine ...
I don't justify it. I have never tried to. Many of you simply ignore this fact and assume that because I do not share all your views that I hold opinions that are in fact not mine. But the solutions offered by many on the Train to this situation, which I agree is intolerable, are in my opinion unrealistic and largely motivated by what I see as a fundamental misreading of the situation. I have simply tried to argue for a realistic approach to the discussion of this topic, which would involve mutual recognition of blame preceding a negotiated settlement of the conflict that would generally follow a return the the '67 lines, the option for refugees to return to the new Palestinian state with some sort of restitution payment from Israel, a serious and concerted effort by the Palestinians to police their own extremists, etc etc, basically what every sane person agrees should happen.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,
Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...
Like I said, I don't know these people personally, which is why I am unwilling to level a definitive accusation. You're right that I wouldn't be happy to be called a racist with the regard to the Palestinians, but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation, because I think there is enough blame to go around, and I recognize that the Palestinians have certainly been victimized. I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
but then you also say Israel reacts out of self defense, how is denying starving kids food and denying a populace water self defense? how is continuing to expand illegal settlements self defense? how was operation cast lead self defense?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
but then you also say Israel reacts out of self defense, how is denying starving kids food and denying a populace water self defense? how is continuing to expand illegal settlements self defense? how was operation cast lead self defense?
it is as much self defese as the american wars in iraq and afghanistan are self defense. short answer, crimes against humanity and war crimes are not self defense...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
first of all - we've been discussing this topic for years and the very premise that this situation is equally to blame on both sides has long been dismissed here as purely lacking in foundation ... forgive us but we see israel as the primary bad guy here and nothing anyone has posted as shown otherwise ...
people have a personal connection to humanity and whether it be gaza or myanmar - people who believe in human rights believe so around the world ... it just so happens the discussion is israel/palestine ... i'm pretty sure the same people would be against the junta in Burma or the anywhere else where basic human decency is being violated ...
nice post, polaris. i agree completely, especially with the last paragraph.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
As far as I know Israel allows food and water into Gaza, and I don't know of any Palestinians who have starved to death because of Israel's actions. That said, I agree that Israel should lift embargoes on that do not relate specifically to security issues (e.g. food items beyond the basics they already let in). I think that settlement expansion should be stopped immediately. Cast Lead was self-defense because it was undertaken in response to unrelenting rocket attacks on civilian populations, that while not resulting in many deaths absolutely traumatized entire regions of the country to the point that life was simply unlivable there.
And gimme, the situation is entirely different than Iraq, which never directly attacked the US. Israel was under attack from Gaza almost daily, and the government, which had held off from a full scale military response to the rocket attacks for as long as it could, having no desire to re-enter Gaza, was forced to do so by a populace demanding that their government do something to defend them.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
As far as I know Israel allows food and water into Gaza, and I don't know of any Palestinians who have starved to death because of Israel's actions. That said, I agree that Israel should lift embargoes on that do not relate specifically to security issues (e.g. food items beyond the basics they already let in). I think that settlement expansion should be stopped immediately. Cast Lead was self-defense because it was undertaken in response to unrelenting rocket attacks on civilian populations, that while not resulting in many deaths absolutely traumatized entire regions of the country to the point that life was simply unlivable there.
well groups like UNICEF and i think even the World Health Organization say the majority of Palestinian children suffer from acute malnutrition because of Israel's actions, like the absurd blockades. are you honestly telling me Israel won't allow crayons and asparagus into Gaza out of self defense!? that is so laughable. they haven't even allowed them to start rebuilding after operation cast lead decimated their city over a year ago.
you say cast lead was self defense because of 'unrelenting rocket attacks'. so you are saying they reacted to rocket attacks, which are really more of a nuisance than deadly...but what if the rocket attacks are reactions to the theft of land, expansion of illegal settlements, abuse from settlers and IDF that goes unpunished (ie allowed to happen)
also, groups like the World Health Organization say Israel only allows the Palestinians use of 20% of the water in the region while they keep the other 80% for themselves. is that out of self defense or greed?
you say the illegal settlement expansion should be stopped, hey, we agree. however, the Israeli government disagrees
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
To start from the end...it isn't so simple as the Israeli government disagreeing. The settlers have become a powerful political block in Israel, and though they are not the majority they are much more extreme in their views, and certain sections of them are much more willing to actively and in some cases violently resist the state than the Israeli political mainstream is. It is very difficult for the government to deal with these people because without the prospect of an immanent peace accord they can't summon the political will necessary to actively police these people to the degree necessary, which would involve a lot of internal Israeli violence.
As for building materials, the Israeli position is that Hamas will use these materials to rebuild and re-enforce military positions such as bunkers and arm depots, so while I find the embargo of these items problematic, there is a real security rational for it.
As for water and food (and crayons) I think they should all be allowed in without restriction. And as for general water use, probably part of that has to do with Israel being an industrial society that simply has higher water requirements, and part of it probably is Israel trying to monopolize a precious resource, but frankly that is an issue that is an acknowledged element of peace negotiations, so if they ever do make peace I would assume that the issue of water will be resolved.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
And gimme, the situation is entirely different than Iraq, which never directly attacked the US. Israel was under attack from Gaza almost daily, and the government, which had held off from a full scale military response to the rocket attacks for as long as it could, having no desire to re-enter Gaza, was forced to do so by a populace demanding that their government do something to defend them.
no, that "self defense" rationale is the same thing. respond with overwhelming force to protect their own interests. iraq never attacked us, nor did palestinian civillians attack isreal. it is the exact same thing. daily rocket attacks? how many people died then when they butchered over 1000 palestinians in 2008. starving children and denying water and medical treatment is not self defense. it is barbaric and is a crime against humanity and demonstrates incredible indecency on the part of isreal.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
Actually, though, nobody cares how you choose to rationalize labeling people on this Message Board as racists. Nobody's buying it. So I suggest you try whistling another tune.
Whoops, my apologies. I forgot to mention that Rebornfixer has your back.
Sure, I'm arrogant.
Another example of your topsy-turvy world.
This is a vile statement. But seeing that throughout the threads, your stance seems to be if one has counter arguments to yours, they are jew haters. Once we understand that, I guess this kind of statement, as disgusting that it may be, should not be taken personally. Talk about a twisted view of things.
Balance is a matter of ones interpretation of someone else's expressed opinion. Yosi's problem is that he seems outnumbered so here comes the invocation that because members post the negativity about Israel's activities they are somehow full of hate, anti-semitic and prejudice, part of some anti-Israel crowd on the MT.
How many times have we discussed abortions and taxes issues and somehow the threads turned into welfare discussions, lazy people not wanting to work, people in ghettos living off of our taxes. I didn't see anyone say hey, you should be more sensitive. In fact the majority didn't care if their comments were insensitive, hateful or prejudice, they viewed their expressions as being tried of political correctness. No one claimed there was an anti-black crowd on MT.
What a person takes from any discussion, again, is up to them, but to simply pull out the anti-semitic card because the discussions reflect negatively on Israel's activities is just bullshit.
dude ... there are only so many people on this thread ... you're accusing some people on here of being anti-semite ... own up to it ...
i don't know everyone personally either but i've seen posts from the regular posters on israel threads on a plethora of subjects and i would be surprised if someone here was an anti-semite (according to my definition which is someone who hates all jews) ... if you live in north america - it's pretty hard not to know a bunch of jews ..
Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...
Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument. It's that victim mentality again. 'You're saying nasty things because you hate me (ie a jew)'
Like I said, I don't know these people personally, which is why I am unwilling to level a definitive accusation. You're right that I wouldn't be happy to be called a racist with the regard to the Palestinians, but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation, because I think there is enough blame to go around, and I recognize that the Palestinians have certainly been victimized. I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored, and I have been called, essentially, a heartless monster making excuses for Nazi war criminals for posting my opinions. Again, I do not make these "accusations" lightly, or because I lack serious arguments. I truly feel that there is an undercurrent of prejudice that runs through some of the posts on these threads that I find disturbing.
:roll: you have not shown any empathy towards the palestinian people, continually defending Israel's actions against these people. 'As far as you can tell'.. exactly. You are making assumptions and unfounded accusations. Does one need a tie to the middle east to feel passionately about the situation? No. Whatever situation - not limited to Israel. I feel passionately about what is happening in the middle east. Do I have ties there? Maybe, maybe not. I feel passionately about what is happening in Burma. Again... do I have ties there? Rubbish reasoning covering your shortfalls.
Your arguments are blinkered and excuses for Israels actions. And you haven't been ignored, just had 'counter-arguments' that you did not like or had no response to (apart from going around in circles) and therefore decided to play the race card.
first of all - we've been discussing this topic for years and the very premise that this situation is equally to blame on both sides has long been dismissed here as purely lacking in foundation ... forgive us but we see israel as the primary bad guy here and nothing anyone has posted as shown otherwise ...
people have a personal connection to humanity and whether it be gaza or myanmar - people who believe in human rights believe so around the world ... it just so happens the discussion is israel/palestine ... i'm pretty sure the same people would be against the junta in Burma or the anywhere else where basic human decency is being violated ...
You have just gone from trying to have your points understood and rationally discussed - to drama queen. Yosi you have a "NEED" to believe people here on the MT hate jews and hate Israel as a whole.
You've had plenty of researched counter arguments to what you have been posting. If, because you are not happy with these and you consider them as rubbish, you decide people have been dismissing everything you said, that is your problem.
How can one take 'you guys are totally off base' as a valid argument?
but then you also say Israel reacts out of self defense, how is denying starving kids food and denying a populace water self defense? how is continuing to expand illegal settlements self defense? how was operation cast lead self defense?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
it is as much self defese as the american wars in iraq and afghanistan are self defense. short answer, crimes against humanity and war crimes are not self defense...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
And gimme, the situation is entirely different than Iraq, which never directly attacked the US. Israel was under attack from Gaza almost daily, and the government, which had held off from a full scale military response to the rocket attacks for as long as it could, having no desire to re-enter Gaza, was forced to do so by a populace demanding that their government do something to defend them.
well groups like UNICEF and i think even the World Health Organization say the majority of Palestinian children suffer from acute malnutrition because of Israel's actions, like the absurd blockades. are you honestly telling me Israel won't allow crayons and asparagus into Gaza out of self defense!? that is so laughable. they haven't even allowed them to start rebuilding after operation cast lead decimated their city over a year ago.
you say cast lead was self defense because of 'unrelenting rocket attacks'. so you are saying they reacted to rocket attacks, which are really more of a nuisance than deadly...but what if the rocket attacks are reactions to the theft of land, expansion of illegal settlements, abuse from settlers and IDF that goes unpunished (ie allowed to happen)
also, groups like the World Health Organization say Israel only allows the Palestinians use of 20% of the water in the region while they keep the other 80% for themselves. is that out of self defense or greed?
you say the illegal settlement expansion should be stopped, hey, we agree. however, the Israeli government disagrees
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
As for building materials, the Israeli position is that Hamas will use these materials to rebuild and re-enforce military positions such as bunkers and arm depots, so while I find the embargo of these items problematic, there is a real security rational for it.
As for water and food (and crayons) I think they should all be allowed in without restriction. And as for general water use, probably part of that has to do with Israel being an industrial society that simply has higher water requirements, and part of it probably is Israel trying to monopolize a precious resource, but frankly that is an issue that is an acknowledged element of peace negotiations, so if they ever do make peace I would assume that the issue of water will be resolved.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."