So, a patient just called me...

jlew24asu · July 2009

polaris_x wrote:

show previous quotes

polaris_x wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

:roll: the system can be improved for the entire population without going to UHC.

can you point to any other country's health care system that is better that is not socialized?

soo ... any examples?

in terms of what?

soulsinging · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

show previous quotes

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

she AND the BF can look for different jobs that do offer insurance.

You don't think there's something wrong with the idea that a given citizen's choice of career might be dictated by a private insurance company? We prosecute the mafia for saying things like "no sir, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just saying that accidents happen and we are offering you protection should you choose to play ball with us."

you make it sound like employer provider healthcare is rare. and I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying that its an option.

I worked for a company out of college that didnt offer health insurance. I bought my own with a lower payment and high deducible. I worked hard and bettered myself and was able to get a job with a better company that paid 100% of my premium. I didnt sit around and hope someone would pay for my care. I put that responsibility on myself.

It's not just enough to find an employer that offers health care, you have to get the right KIND of health care. There's no telling if your employer will offer a plan that meets your needs, or if buying a private plan that does meet your needs is affordable. Add children into the mix... and it's a real crapshoot.

But there's the argument I've been waiting for that you've managed to keep hidden so long, which I must admit is impressive. But all comes down to "just pull yourself up by the bootstraps!" Of course, it is always that simple.

soulsinging · July 2009

know1 wrote:

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scb wrote:

asking if she could be seen by one of our docs. She has the list of the docs her health insurance will allow her to see and she's just going down the list calling every one. She's was on the L's by the time she got to me. I had to turn her away too.

Gotta love that "choice" provided to us by the private insurance companies!

I don't see what that has to do with the insurance companies. All it really says is it's hard to find a doctor.

The insurance companies limit your choice of doctor. You cannot see a doctor not on their list.

jlew24asu · July 2009

soulsinging wrote:

But there's the argument I've been waiting for that you've managed to keep hidden so long, which I must admit is impressive. But all comes down to "just pull yourself up by the bootstraps!" Of course, it is always that simple.

of course its not simple, life isn't.... you of all people should know that.

_ · July 2009

Jlew... I get your point that the WHO hasn't produced a world health ranking report in nearly 10 years (although that's not THAT long), so I tried to think of something else that might be a reasonable indicator of health. I looked up the WHO/UNICEF/UNFPA/The World Bank estimates of maternal mortality for 2005 and here's what I found out:

There are 33 countries with a lower maternal mortality ratio (maternal deaths per 100,000 live births) AND a higher lifetime risk of maternal death (1 in x):

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Canada
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Malta
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
United Kingdom
Average of industrialized countries

Our lifetime risk of maternal death (1:4,800) is more than twice as high as:

Australia (1:13,300)
Austria (1:21,500)
Bosnia & Herzegovina (1:29,000)
Canada (1:11,000)
Croatia (1:10,500)
Czech Republic (1:18,100)
Denmark (1:17,800)
Germany (1:19,200)
Greece (1:25,900)
Hungary (1:13,300)
Iceland (1:12,700)
Ireland (1:47,600 - wow!)
Italy (1:26,600)
Japan (1:11,600)
Netherlands (1:10,200)
Poland (1:10,600)
Slovakia (1:13,800)
Slovenia (1:14,200)
Spain (1:16,400)
Sweden (1:17,400)
Switzerland (1:13,800)
Average for industrialized countried (1:8,000)

_ · July 2009

know1 wrote:

show previous quotes

scb wrote:

asking if she could be seen by one of our docs. She has the list of the docs her health insurance will allow her to see and she's just going down the list calling every one. She's was on the L's by the time she got to me. I had to turn her away too.

Gotta love that "choice" provided to us by the private insurance companies!

I don't see what that has to do with the insurance companies. All it really says is it's hard to find a doctor.

The point is that insurance companies limit - not expand - your choice of doctors.

polaris_x · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

:roll: the system can be improved for the entire population without going to UHC.

polaris_x wrote:

can you point to any other country's health care system that is better that is not socialized?

your assertation is the UHC is not the solution to deliver health care ... is there a country out there that is delivering a better health care system that isn't socialized?

jlew24asu · July 2009

polaris_x wrote:

show previous quotes

jlew24asu wrote:

:roll: the system can be improved for the entire population without going to UHC.

show previous quotes

polaris_x wrote:

can you point to any other country's health care system that is better that is not socialized?

your assertation is the UHC is not the solution to deliver health care ... is there a country out there that is delivering a better health care system that isn't socialized?

thats a loaded question if I ever saw one.

the government will need to be involved in some way to provide the care for everyone. but we dont need UHC to accomplish that.

jlew24asu · July 2009

I'm outta here. hope everyone tunes in to Obama's speech tonight. I'll be watching.

polaris_x · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

thats a loaded question if I ever saw one.

the government will need to be involved in some way to provide the care for everyone. but we dont need UHC to accomplish that.

i don't see how it's loaded ... it seems you are arguing against UHC but cannot point to an alternative system that ultimately will deliver the type of health care everyone would want ...

jlew24asu · July 2009

polaris_x wrote:

show previous quotes

jlew24asu wrote:

thats a loaded question if I ever saw one.

the government will need to be involved in some way to provide the care for everyone. but we dont need UHC to accomplish that.

i don't see how it's loaded ... it seems you are arguing against UHC but cannot point to an alternative system that ultimately will deliver the type of health care everyone would want ...

because that alternative system doesnt exist yet. thats what you people can't seem to grasp. we need a new line of thinking in order to make the system better for everyone. I've given my thoughts many times as to how that would look. but I'm no expert, I'm just one guy with an opinion and a voice.

I'm not willing to accept UHC just because other countries do it. I see too many potential problems and I'm also not willing to just hand over control to the government. their track record proves less then stellar on many programs.

decides2dream · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

show previous quotes

polaris_x wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

thats a loaded question if I ever saw one.

the government will need to be involved in some way to provide the care for everyone. but we dont need UHC to accomplish that.

i don't see how it's loaded ... it seems you are arguing against UHC but cannot point to an alternative system that ultimately will deliver the type of health care everyone would want ...

because that alternative system doesnt exist yet. thats what you people can't seem to grasp. we need a new line of thinking in order to make the system better for everyone. I've given my thoughts many times as to how that would look. but I'm no expert, I'm just one guy with an opinion and a voice.

I'm not willing to accept UHC just because other countries do it. I see too many potential problems and I'm also not willing to just hand over control to the government. their track record proves less then stellar on many programs.

we grasp it.

we DO need a new line of thinking, and even UHC, it would be uniquely our own version, not a cookie-cutter solution. i think many have suggested, myself included, that other countries UHC serve merely as a model, at most...but that we need to create our own, new model...that will work for us. now i understand you just don't want UHC, fair enough (and i know you've thrown out ideas, but none thus far that personally appeal to me...so i am still looking for this 'better alternative' that will appeal/serve us all).....but the flip side of that is simply b/c many of us do want UHC, doesn't mean we don't want our own, unique system. however, i am absolutely open to the idea of an entirely alternate, unique system that does not exist anywhere yet.....as long as it is better than what we have now and UHC. tho in my mind, even this alternate...would look and behave a lot more closely to UHC than private insurance, but all labels in any case. i don't give a shit what it's called, i care about it's application, usage and benefit to ALL.

jlew24asu · July 2009

decides2dream wrote:

we grasp it.
we DO need a new line of thinking, and even UHC, it would be uniquely our own version, not a cookie-cutter solution. i think many have suggested, myself included, that other countries UHC serve merely as a model, at most...but that we need to create our own, new model...that will work for us. now i understand you just don't want UHC, fair enough (and i know you've thrown out ideas, but none thus far that personally appeal to me...so i am still looking for this 'better alternative' that will appeal/serve us all).....but the flip side of that is simply b/c many of us do want UHC, doesn't mean we don't want our own, unique system. however, i am absolutely open to the idea of an entirely alternate, unique system that does not exist anywhere yet.....as long as it is better than what we have now and UHC. tho in my mind, even this alternate...would look and behave a lot more closely to UHC than private insurance, but all labels in any case. i don't give a shit what it's called, i care about it's application, usage and benefit to ALL.

a new line of thinking? really? sounds like you want UHC. yea, what a groundbreaking idea :roll:

jlew24asu · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm outta here. hope everyone tunes in to Obama's speech tonight. I'll be watching.

did anyone watch? I did. I really liked some of his ideas.....some of which I've been arguing for such as government policing of the insurance industry. what I don't like is the funding for it. still vague. actually much of the bill is so its hard to make s decision yet. like insurance exchange? what the hell is that.. anywho, I did like many things he said last night. if anyone has a link to his talking points that would be great.

dunkman · July 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

here I have another touching story for you...there are plenty if you'd like to read through the others..

http://patientsunitednow.com/?q=node/429

Andrew D. - Seattle, WA
Submitted by mdemkovich on Tue, 07/21/2009 - 18:16

Trust me you do not want this to happen to America. Read on... My family lived in England for 2 years in 2007-2009 and experienced Socialized Medicine first hand. Meghan (my daughter) was born in England and also got very sick in England. We saw firsthand how a government run system breeds mediocre coverage, doing the bare minimum to help patients in need and not performing vital services because they are too expensive on the system.

A prime example: My daughter was 3 weeks old when she had a seizure. We got her to the hospital where the doctors immediately did a spinal tap to diagnose the problem with VERY limited testing (cost controls). They could only perform limited testing on the spinal fluid due to the lack of proper equipment at the hospital (lack of funding and cost controls). In order to accurately diagnose why my daughter had a seizure they had to send the samples away for testing (again cost controls, the government run systems can only support so much equipment and services at different hospitals) Little did we know the testing is only done once a week, on Fridays, because the system cannot support the expenses to have daily or even hourly testing service and the equipment at every hospital. We entered the hospital on Sunday evening and had to wait until that Friday for results!!

Meghan then had another seizure!! The doctors tried numerous individual things on my little Meghan to try and discover the problem, when if they would have tested the fluid they would have known she had viral meningitis. After a weeks worth of horrible services, demoralizing treatment and arguments with a staff that could only provide basic services we learned what she had and then could properly treat my 3 week old daughter. We felt helpless to do anything but watch my daughter cry endlessly, scared, unfed (another thing they were “trying”) and wait.

The doctors could only do so much with the resources available. It was horrible, and I wouldn’t wish this type of system on anyone. People out there think a system like Canada or England is a good thing for the population, but I have to tell you it is the worst idea, the worst services possible and sure fire way to get the worst treatment available for any of our families and loved ones.

I have more stories like this for the birth of our daughter that outline why this system breeds mediocrity and low levels of services for our people. Don’t Do it America. Don’t Do it...

I have another example of a friend in England who broke her arm in 3 places, and it was “set” using equipment too large for her arm because the system only carries “1 size fits all” for broken bones. She now has limited mobility and loss of senses in her hand because they could not support her smaller arm/body with the properly sized equipment.

fuck sake.... for every one horror story like this there are millions of others... yes millions.. who are seen by our National Health System and are treated well, efficiently and FREE.

here's a horror story...

http://www.click2houston.com/news/19400 ... ail.html#-

people get charged for rape kits in the States? thats fuckied up... if i got stabbed by a mentalist i'd have to pay for my medical care? thats fucked up.

cincybearcat · July 2009

dunkman wrote:

if i got stabbed by a mentalist i'd have to pay for my medical care? thats fucked up.

Who do you think should pay for it? I'd agree with the "mentalist".

There is no such thing as free health care...someone's always paying for it.

jlew24asu · July 2009

dunkman wrote:

fuck sake.... for every one horror story like this there are millions of others... yes millions.. who are seen by our National Health System and are treated well, efficiently and FREE.

your healthcare is anything but FREE :roll:

dunkman wrote:

here's a horror story...

http://www.click2houston.com/news/19400 ... ail.html#-

people get charged for rape kits in the States? thats fuckied up... if i got stabbed by a mentalist i'd have to pay for my medical care? thats fucked up.

paying for something you need. what a shocking reality. or sue the mentalist, he would be the one liable.

Gern Blansten · July 2009

do you really need to keep arguing about the "free" comments? We all know there is a cost and by "free" it means you don't get harassed for an insurance card and denied treatment because you don't have your card and/or you aren't refused treatment because you aren't insured or have $10,000 in your pocket to fix your broken finger

jlew24asu · July 2009

Gern Blansten wrote:

do you really need to keep arguing about the "free" comments? We all know there is a cost and by "free" it means you don't get harassed for an insurance card and denied treatment because you don't have your card and/or you aren't refused treatment because you aren't insured or have $10,000 in your pocket to fix your broken finger

no, absolutely not. people like dunk probably actually believe its free.

cincybearcat · July 2009

Gern Blansten wrote:

do you really need to keep arguing about the "free" comments? We all know there is a cost and by "free" it means you don't get harassed for an insurance card and denied treatment because you don't have your card and/or you aren't refused treatment because you aren't insured or have $10,000 in your pocket to fix your broken finger

How can you stop arguing about the $? It's the whole discussion. Everyone wants everyone to have the best health care when they need it....the who's going to pay for it (and how) is the only thing left to discuss.

So, a patient just called me...

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