The War on Democracy
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FiveB247x wrote:http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/10/15/venezuela-disturbing-plan-suspend-due-process
A constitutional amendment proposed by a pro-government committee in Venezuela’s National Assembly would allow the suspension of due process protections, Human Rights Watch said today.
The amendment would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights in states of emergency. Under Venezuela’s constitution, these rights include, among others: the right to the presumption of innocence and to a fair trial; the right to an attorney; the right against self-incrimination; the right of a defendant to know the charges and evidence against him; and the right against double jeopardy...
Right, so under a state of emergency, such as another coup attempt, the Venezuelan leadership can apply the same measures that the U.S currently applies to all of it's citizens under the terms of the Patriot act.0 -
Your assumption that because most Americans are either dim or ill-informed and therefore told to hate Chavez doesn't defend Chavez's actions and that is kinda the point you seem to be ignoring. Thus far in this thread, you've defended his underminding of democratic practices, human rights, censorship and similar. I have more than stated clearly my point and backed it with detail. Have a good day sir.Byrnzie wrote:Let's face it. Americans are told to hate Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. So they hate it. The majority of Americans don't even know where Venezuela is, let alone why they hate it. They just do what they're told like good Americans.CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis0 -
bootlegger10 wrote:To everyone: I would quit this argument. Nobody will change each other's minds in this thread. America haters see the rest of the world through rose colored glasses, and NOTHING will change this. Hell, terrorists fly planes into the WTC and it was an inside job apparently! They'll ignore anything and everything that does not support their anti-America agenda.
i like this little throwdown between fiveB and byrnzie ... i don't know if they'll convince each other of anything - what i do know is when i see america hater - i know you're not open to learning anything ...0 -
FiveB247x wrote:Your assumption that because most Americans are either dim or ill-informed and therefore told to hate Chavez doesn't defend Chavez's actions and that is kinda the point you seem to be ignoring. Thus far in this thread, you've defended his underminding of democratic practices, human rights, censorship and similar. I have more than stated clearly my point and backed it with detail. Have a good day sir.
I've not 'defended his undermining of democratic practices, human rights, censorship and similar', I'm just not convinced by any of these accusations.0 -
Most know me on this board as leaning left and very critical of foreign policy and similar, but generically, I call a spade a spade. Overall, is Chavez's denouncing US power in the world a good thing, in my opinion, generically it is, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the rest of what he does. I don't plan on convincing anyone of something, but just back up my statements with details and facts, if someone doesnt want to acknowledge that or considers it false, I can't help that. Anyways, I think this discussion has been beaten into the ground..hahapolaris_x wrote:
i like this little throwdown between fiveB and byrnzie ... i don't know if they'll convince each other of anything - what i do know is when i see america hater - i know you're not open to learning anything ...CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis0 -
Thanks for posting this Byrnzie. I've been trying to get a better handle on Chavez for years. It's obvious that you can't take the media at face when it comes to opinions on other countries and their systems...still, this film was an eye-opener.
It appears that at worst, Chavez has manipulated the system to maintain power, at the cost of true democracy....and at best really IS a sort of Robin Hood...I'm sure the truth lies in the middle. Either way, I don't think he is anywhere near the bogeyman he's made out to be in western media (shocking, I know)....esp when his democratic and human rights records are viewed in comparison with the countries criticizing him.0 -
Drowned Out wrote:Thanks for posting this Byrnzie. I've been trying to get a better handle on Chavez for years. It's obvious that you can't take the media at face when it comes to opinions on other countries and their systems...still, this film was an eye-opener.
It appears that at worst, Chavez has manipulated the system to maintain power, at the cost of true democracy....and at best really IS a sort of Robin Hood...I'm sure the truth lies in the middle. Either way, I don't think he is anywhere near the bogeyman he's made out to be in western media (shocking, I know)....esp when his democratic and human rights records are viewed in comparison with the countries criticizing him.
I won't bother discussing the pros and cons of Chavez. I've waisted way too much time in here trying to convey a different perspective and I've come to learn that it's pointless.
However, Drowned Out if you want a different point of view about Chavez I recommend you this website: http://www.caracaschronicles.com It is written in english by two Venezuelan guys. I personally know one of them because I used to attend the same university as him in Caracas. They don't like Chávez (they are very critical of the opposition as well) but they provide you with data, facts and well their personal opinions. I'm not asking you to agree with them, I just think you could use another point of view to balance things out.
inmytree: I was the one that went back to visit Venezuela a couple of years ago. I stand by the opinion I posted on the old Moving Train.
I just want to know one thing Byrnzie. You say Chavez -in a very simplistic manner- that Chavez has improved income distribution (taking money from the rich etc etc). Even if we assume that your assertion is correct, I want to know how do you measure the trade-off between respecting human rights/constitution and improving socioeconmic indicators. How many percentile points in income distribution improvement is worth, to you, each Constitutional violation? Did you know that under Pinochet's regime Chile's infant mortality rate diminished more than it has during the past decade in Venezuela? Just to make it clear I despise Pinochet, I'm just trying to make a point.
Chavez has been breaking his own Constitution so often these days. Did you know that in those cities where opposition majors were elected, during the latest elections, Chavez just issued a decree and appointed a "super-major" that of course answer to him? Google Antonio Ledezma (elected) y Jacqueline Farias (appointed just like that, just because I don't like that major of the capital is from the opposition)
I guess I got dragged into this debate again....0 -
CaterinaCK wrote:I want to know how do you measure the trade-off between respecting human rights/constitution and improving socioeconmic indicators. How many percentile points in income distribution improvement is worth, to you, each Constitutional violation?
How do I measure the trade-off between improving the lives of hundreds of thousands of poor Venezuelans and giving them a place in the running of the country and their own affairs, and constitutional violations such as appointing 'super majors', or issuing decrees that t.v stations that promote military coups against the elected government will be subject to closure? Seems like a fair trade-off to me, especially when no-one has yet produced details of any 'constitional violation' of any significance.
And what about these Mayors? What are the details of it? How unconstitutional is it? How does it effect the country and the government?CaterinaCK wrote:Did you know that under Pinochet's regime Chile's infant mortality rate diminished more than it has during the past decade in Venezuela? Just to make it clear I despise Pinochet, I'm just trying to make a point.
Chavez has been breaking his own Constitution so often these days. Did you know that in those cities where opposition majors were elected, during the latest elections, Chavez just issued a decree and appointed a "super-major" that of course answer to him? Google Antonio Ledezma (elected) y Jacqueline Farias (appointed just like that, just because I don't like that major of the capital is from the opposition)
I guess I got dragged into this debate again....
It seems to me like people are just splitting hairs and jumping on every morsel of an excuse to criticize him.
People keep talking about human rights violations but so far nobody has presented any evidence of anything worthy of the name.
The documentary points out that there are still countless numbers of impoverished people in Venezuela, but that at least Chavez is trying to tackle the problem. People in Venezuela now have opportunities that they never had before.
Let's face it, the only people in Venezuela who don't like Chavez are the Middle Classes and the rich.Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
Byrnzie wrote:
How do I measure the trade-off between improving the lives of hundreds of thousands of poor Venezuelans and giving them a place in the running of the country and their own affairs, and constitutional violations such as appointing 'super majors', or issuing decrees that t.v stations that promote military coups against the elected government will be subject to closure? Seems like a fair trade-off to me, especially when no-one has yet produced details of any 'constitional violation' of any significance.
And what about these Majors? What are the details of it? How unconstitutional is it? How does it effect the country and the government?
It seems to me like people are just splitting hairs and jumping on every morsel of an excuse to criticize him.
People keep talking about human rights violations but so far nobody has presented any evidence of anything worthy of the name.
The documentary points out that there are still countless numbers of impoverished people in Venezuela, but that at least Chavez is trying to tackle the problem. People in Venezuela now have opportunities that they never had before.
Let's face it, the only people in Venezuela who don't like Chavez are the Middle Classes and the rich.
I'm sorry, but the way to try to excuse him for everything is just funny. So, people of Caracas go and vote, they elect Antonio Ledezma and he wins. Since he's from the opposition, Chavez appoints Jaqcueline Farias as "super major" and strips of all power the man the caraqueños chose to be their major. Democracy at its best.
¿What about the incarceration of General Baduel? The man that saved Chavez's life during April 11th?
What about the fact that the Constitution said that you can only call 1 referendum on each presidential term. Well, on 2007 a referendum took place for people to decide whether they wanted to modify the Constitution to allow indefinite elections. People voted no. So, Chavez goes and calls for another referendum, even though his own Constitution prohibits it. Of Course the Supreme Court (integrated only by Chavez supporters. They can be seen in YouTube singing "Uh Ah Chavez no se va", (Uh Ah, Chavez won't go away ) gave him the green light.
What about people blacklisted at Lista Tascón and Lista Maisanta? I know friends of my father that have lost their jobs and are being denied retirement funds because they signed the petition for the Fist referendum.
Ohhh, btw in Petare (Venezuela's largest slum dwell) the newly elected major is from the opposition (Carlos Ocáriz). So, yeah, only the rich disagree Chavez. That statement of yours goes to show that you just started paying attention to Chavez when he started cursing Bush. Do you really know Venezuela? Because from what you wrote one would think that Venezuela was Sierra Leona before Chavez. I understand why Chavez came to power, trust me I was there, I lived the whole 90's decade in Venezuela and I saw corruption and greed take over. But Chavez is trying to re-write history, public health and education were always available, same goes for literacy programs (ACUDE). Actually, both public health and education are as mediocre now as they were before him. Try going into a hospital with a broken bone, be sure to bring the material for nurses to make you a cast. Right now PDVSA is going broke and has not paid to its suppliers for the past 6 month. Try to find out a little about what's going on Zulia with oil workers being fired...
Anyways, thanks for treating Venezuelans as 2nd classs citizens, undeserving of both prosperity/equality and democratic institutionality. You know, in South America we have to settle, we either have lower infant mortality rate or we have a proper democracy. Thankfully, Chile and Brazil are leading the way in South America, showing that you can improve people's life while respecting their constitutional rights
How come Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are reliable sources for HR violations in plenty of cases, except when it comes to Venezuela? Did you know that José Manuel Vivanco (HRW Director for Latin America) was taken out of hotel room and literally kicked out of the country, they took him like he was a crook and sent him to Brazil. They did not even give him time to gather his personal belongings.
Ohhh, what about Chavez inviting Omar Al-Bashir to Venezuela, after the International Court condemned him?
Anyways, I'm outta here, because it is pointless. Whatever I say is going to be dismissed as circumstancial evidence, whereas everything you say is the gospel of truth. I'm wrong and you're right.0 -
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security - Benjamin Franklin.CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis0 -
CaterinaCK wrote:I'm sorry, but the way to try to excuse him for everything is just funny. So, people of Caracas go and vote, they elect Antonio Ledezma and he wins. Since he's from the opposition, Chavez appoints Jaqcueline Farias as "super major" and strips of all power the man the caraqueños chose to be their major. Democracy at its best.
¿What about the incarceration of General Baduel? The man that saved Chavez's life during April 11th?
What about the fact that the Constitution said that you can only call 1 referendum on each presidential term. Well, on 2007 a referendum took place for people to decide whether they wanted to modify the Constitution to allow indefinite elections. People voted no. So, Chavez goes and calls for another referendum, even though his own Constitution prohibits it. Of Course the Supreme Court (integrated only by Chavez supporters. They can be seen in YouTube singing "Uh Ah Chavez no se va", (Uh Ah, Chavez won't go away ) gave him the green light.
What about people blacklisted at Lista Tascón and Lista Maisanta? I know friends of my father that have lost their jobs and are being denied retirement funds because they signed the petition for the Fist referendum.
Ohhh, btw in Petare (Venezuela's largest slum dwell) the newly elected major is from the opposition (Carlos Ocáriz). So, yeah, only the rich disagree Chavez. That statement of yours goes to show that you just started paying attention to Chavez when he started cursing Bush. Do you really know Venezuela? Because from what you wrote one would think that Venezuela was Sierra Leona before Chavez. I understand why Chavez came to power, trust me I was there, I lived the whole 90's decade in Venezuela and I saw corruption and greed take over. But Chavez is trying to re-write history, public health and education were always available, same goes for literacy programs (ACUDE). Actually, both public health and education are as mediocre now as they were before him. Try going into a hospital with a broken bone, be sure to bring the material for nurses to make you a cast. Right now PDVSA is going broke and has not paid to its suppliers for the past 6 month. Try to find out a little about what's going on Zulia with oil workers being fired...
Anyways, thanks for treating Venezuelans as 2nd classs citizens, undeserving of both prosperity/equality and democratic institutionality. You know, in South America we have to settle, we either have lower infant mortality rate or we have a proper democracy. Thankfully, Chile and Brazil are leading the way in South America, showing that you can improve people's life while respecting their constitutional rights
How come Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch are reliable sources for HR violations in plenty of cases, except when it comes to Venezuela? Did you know that José Manuel Vivanco (HRW Director for Latin America) was taken out of hotel room and literally kicked out of the country, they took him like he was a crook and sent him to Brazil. They did not even give him time to gather his personal belongings.
Ohhh, what about Chavez inviting Omar Al-Bashir to Venezuela, after the International Court condemned him?
Anyways, I'm outta here, because it is pointless. Whatever I say is going to be dismissed as circumstancial evidence, whereas everything you say is the gospel of truth. I'm wrong and you're right.
Where do you live? America or Venezuela?
Seems to me that a lot of Americanized rich Venezualans are upset because they've had some of their toys taken away from them.
Edit: What's 'the petition for the Fist referendum'? It's just that, like every other 'condemnation' on this thread, you've provided no explanation or background info with which to explain what the relevance is, and I doubt that anyone here has the foggiest what the petition for the Fist referendum is.
Also, who is Omar Al-Bashir? And what was he condemned for? And why should he not have been invited to Venezuela?
I guess I'm just looking for a bit of clarity from you Chavez haters, and so far I haven't found any.0 -
CaterinaCK wrote:inmytree: I was the one that went back to visit Venezuela a couple of years ago. I stand by the opinion I posted on the old Moving Train. ....
Thank you, Caterina. It's been a long time and I could not remember your username.
I'm not going to sit in this thread and argue/debate this with Byrnzie. I neither have the patience or desire to do so.
I'm not pretending I have personal, hands-on experience in Venezuela. I'm not claiming to have that kind of insight.
But for me, the most insightful and legitimate insight and information comes from people who either live there, have been there recently or have extensive family living there. That's as realistic and valid as it gets.
I'm not going to pretend that Byrnzie and some questionable links and writers have the truth scooped out on a spoon for me.
And from what you shared of your experience and from what my friend shared (through the experiences of her very extensive family and friends); I find the true clarity of the situation.
And it's not just very very extensive family. It is the experiences of all of her family, their network of friends, neighbors and acquaintances. Which turns into a very large network of friends, who are spread through out Venezuela.
it's not a coincedence that their experiences reflect what you have stated. People who live there have the only accurate and legitimate information.
I was never a Bush/Cheney guy and I have no partisan/party loyalties, whatsoever.
I am not sharing this on Chavez, in favor of America Obama...Bush...Clinton...Reagan....etc. I have often expressed my opinions on our government, in this forum. Anyone who knows me, knows I never defend the bad, under-handed, dirty things our country does (and the men behind it). Never.
But Chavez is not better.
Maybe one day people will stop choosing and defending one dictator ...one political leader...one President.....one scumbag over the other; on the basis of best of the worst. Maybe one day, we as human beings and citizens of our own individual countries; we will hold ourselves and our political candidates to extremely higer standards and immediately dethrone them when they fail to live up to those standards.
I wish you and your family (and friends) the best, Caterina. Thanks again.0 -
Byrnzie wrote:
Where do you live? America or Venezuela?
Seems to me that a lot of Americanized rich Venezualans are upset because they've had some of their toys taken away from them.
Edit: What's 'the petition for the Fist referendum'? It's just that, like every other 'condemnation' on this thread, you've provided no explanation or background info with which to explain what the relevance is, and I doubt that anyone here has the foggiest what the petition for the Fist referendum is.
Also, who is Omar Al-Bashir? And what was he condemned for? And why should he not have been invited to Venezuela?
I guess I'm just looking for a bit of clarity from you Chavez haters, and so far I haven't found any.
I really want to thank you for your total lack of prejudice, you have no idea about me, yet you dismiss me as "an americanized Venezuelan"? I was born in Chile 36 years ago, I grew up in Venezuela and currently I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina dear Byrnzie. Never ever have I lived in the US. You can ask polaris-x, he knows me personally.
I provided very basic information, nothing strange or obscure, Venezuela's politics 101. I was referring to the first referendum, sorry if I wrote "fist" (English is not my mother's tongue). In 2004, the opposition signed a petition -full name, address, identity card- to call for a Referendum to decide if Chavez should remain president or not. Thousands of people that signed such petition have had problems in finding jobs, receiving their retirement funds, other were forced to leave the country, so on and so forth. Former Minister Tascón admitted to the press that he had indeed kept the information of those who signed the petition and created that list...
¿Are you really asking me who Omar Al-Bashir is? Darfur genocide does not ring a bell to you? He was Sudan's presidente and recently was condemned by the International Court of Justice for the Darfur genocide.
I have to admit my disappointment in you not knowing who Al-Bashir is, I really thought you were a HR champion...0 -
NMyTree wrote:Maybe one day people will stop choosing and defending one dictator ...one political leader...one President.....one scumbag over the other; on the basis of best of the worst. Maybe one day, we as human beings and citizens of our own individual countries; we will hold ourselves and our political candidates to extremely higer standards and immediately dethrone them when they fail to live up to those standards.
I wish you and your family (and friends) the best, Caterina. Thanks again.
Yeah, it's been a while since I last posted, mainly because I gave up on debating Chavez here, and even though there are other topics of my interest, I rather not post unless I really know what I'm talking about.
I agree 100% with your last paragraph. And I really hope that Venezuela one day -through democratic channels, I won't take it any other way- gets rid of Chavez and elects reponsible leaders, because Chavez is nothing but a consequence of the corruption and greed of his predecessors. There's plenty of young people doing interesting things in Venezuela these days, I have faith in them, especially in Carlos Ocáriz, newly elected major of Petare (Caracas, heck, Venezuela's largest poor barrio (ie slum))
Best wishes to you and your loved ones too
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I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly ........ Byrnzie lives in China.0
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yes ... i know caterina personally and i wouldn't mess with her ...
seriously tho - i think what this topic boils down to is this: dissent is the ultimate symbol of democracy but democracy is the most inefficient form of governing ... if we prioritize what we each feel is important in a leader - he's gonna fall differently on a scale based on that ... yes - chavez has had to fight a history of foreign intervention and corruption and he has done much for the poor people of venezuela however, in the year 2009 - is it wrong to want a leader to be able to accomplish that within the context of true democracy and beholden to the charter of human rights? i don't think so.
venezuela, as in all countries, should be governed for all people not just a segment or special group - it is obvious based on the evidence provided that isn't the case right now ... having said that - i will add the caveat that it doesn't take a whole lot from some powerful group to disrupt a country in latin america - defending against these groups is easier said than done ..0 -
polaris_x wrote:yes ... i know caterina personally and i wouldn't mess with her ...
seriously tho - i think what this topic boils down to is this: dissent is the ultimate symbol of democracy but democracy is the most inefficient form of governing ... if we prioritize what we each feel is important in a leader - he's gonna fall differently on a scale based on that ... yes - chavez has had to fight a history of foreign intervention and corruption and he has done much for the poor people of venezuela however, in the year 2009 - is it wrong to want a leader to be able to accomplish that within the context of true democracy and beholden to the charter of human rights? i don't think so.
venezuela, as in all countries, should be governed for all people not just a segment or special group - it is obvious based on the evidence provided that isn't the case right now ... having said that - i will add the caveat that it doesn't take a whole lot from some powerful group to disrupt a country in latin america - defending against these groups is easier said than done ..
Thanks Lien,
"in the year 2009 - is it wrong to want a leader to be able to accomplish that within the context of true democracy and beholden to the charter of human rights? i don't think so" This pretty much sums up what I wanted to say...next time I'll send you a draft of my post hehe0 -
CaterinaCK wrote:I really want to thank you for your total lack of prejudice, you have no idea about me, yet you dismiss me as "an americanized Venezuelan"? I was born in Chile 36 years ago, I grew up in Venezuela and currently I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina dear Byrnzie. Never ever have I lived in the US. You can ask polaris-x, he knows me personally.
I didn't dismiss you, but it seems to me that the only people in Venezuela who like to criticize Chavez are rich Venezuelans. The poor of Venezuela don't seem to have a problem with him, which may be why he keeps getting voted in every election.CaterinaCK wrote:I provided very basic information, nothing strange or obscure, Venezuela's politics 101. I was referring to the first referendum, sorry if I wrote "fist" (English is not my mother's tongue). In 2004, the opposition signed a petition -full name, address, identity card- to call for a Referendum to decide if Chavez should remain president or not. Thousands of people that signed such petition have had problems in finding jobs, receiving their retirement funds, other were forced to leave the country, so on and so forth. Former Minister Tascón admitted to the press that he had indeed kept the information of those who signed the petition and created that list...
So after Chavez was democratically elected by the people of Venezuela the opposition decided to vote on whether he should be ousted from office? And some of those who took part in this effort to instigate a second coup attempt have since faced some difficulties?CaterinaCK wrote:¿Are you really asking me who Omar Al-Bashir is? Darfur genocide does not ring a bell to you? He was Sudan's presidente and recently was condemned by the International Court of Justice for the Darfur genocide.
I have to admit my disappointment in you not knowing who Al-Bashir is, I really thought you were a HR champion...
Of course I know about the war in Darfur, I just wasn't aware of the name of the President of this small region in the Sudan.0 -
i don't have anything intelligent to add at the moment, but I really loved when Chavez called Bush "El Diablo"Fuck Cancer, fucking jerk0
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Byrnzie[ wrote: »I provided very basic information, nothing strange or obscure, Venezuela's politics 101. I was referring to the first referendum, sorry if I wrote "fist" (English is not my mother's tongue). In 2004, the opposition signed a petition -full name, address, identity card- to call for a Referendum to decide if Chavez should remain president or not. Thousands of people that signed such petition have had problems in finding jobs, receiving their retirement funds, other were forced to leave the country, so on and so forth. Former Minister Tascón admitted to the press that he had indeed kept the information of those who signed the petition and created that list...
So after Chavez was democratically elected by the people of Venezuela the opposition decided to vote on whether he should be ousted from office? And some of those who took part in this effort to instigate a second coup attempt have since faced some difficulties? [/quote]
The possibility of asking for a revocatory referendum was stated in the Constitution, nothing illegal. Not a second coup attempt, Chavez's Constitution (the Bolivarian Constitution that he, himself, wrote) contemplated the possibility of a referendum, by collecting over a million signatures, and presenting them to the CNE (National Electoral Council). So, the opposition gathered the signatures, which were verified by the CNE, and the Referendum took place. Are you really telling me that it's ok for these people to be blacklisted? You call losing your job, not being able to collect your retirement pension a "some difficulties"? I know people that had to leave the country because they received life threats. And guess what, plenty of these people really relied on their job for making ends meet. Are you telling me that Gumersinda (she used to babysit me and my sister every now and then, and we've always kept in touch with her) really deserve to be blacklisted? She is everything but rich, she's always worked as a nanny, she just had "the nerve" to sign the referendum petition.
But I guess it's OK just because they are from the opposition, they are not entlitled to their civil rights.
So, again I ask you, if only rich Venezuelans disagree with Chavez, how come Carlos Ocáriz was elected major of Petare, which is the largest poor neighborhood of Caracas?
You did not give me your opinion about Chavez's invitation to Al-Bashir, nothing major, just a little genocide in Darfur, you know...
Anyways, as usual, it's fun being called a rich-spoiled brat, just because I don't support Thugo's regime. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just feel the urge to let people know he's not all that he claims to be. That's all, I just want to state that Venezuelans and Latin Americans are deserving of both prosperity, equality, justice AND civil rights. We should not settle with less...0
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