The War on Democracy

CaterinaCK

"Byrnzie wrote:

O.k, thanks.

I was just trying to dig a little deeper I suppose. I don't like to take things at face value. I know there's a lot of conflicting opinions on Chavez's Venezuela. I'm not the type of person to simply agree with someone just because they happen to live in the country in question.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Some people on this board stick their tails in the air when I ask questions or post links which challenge certain conventional wisdoms. But, hey, fuck 'em. That's just the way I roll.

You're welcome. It's fine if you want to "challenge conventional wisdoms" and all. But, it wouldn't kill you to be a little more receptive to other people's opinions or trying not to stereotype people. You instantly casted me as a "rich americanized Venezuela", which invalidated everything I had to say (I'm not any of those, btw). What's the point in arguing with someone whose opinions bear no meaning whatsoever? Just a small observation
Have a great week!

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

You instantly casted me as a "rich americanized Venezuela", which invalidated everything I had to say (I'm not any of those, btw)

My mistake for presuming that people who hire maids and nannies, can speak a number of different languages, and have lived in various parts of the world, are wealthy. An easy mistake to make. I'll try not to jump to conclusions next time.

Edit: Just because someone happens to live in the country being discussed doesn't mean they have the final word on it.

soulsinging

CaterinaCK wrote:

You're welcome. It's fine if you want to "challenge conventional wisdoms" and all. But, it wouldn't kill you to be a little more receptive to other people's opinions or trying not to stereotype people.

You hit the nail on the head there, but it's a futile effort on your part. That's just his MO.

Byrnzie wrote:

My mistake for presuming that people who hire maids and nannies, can speak a number of different languages, and have lived in various parts of the world, are wealthy. An easy mistake to make. I'll try not to jump to conclusions next time.

Thanks for proving the point. You're a piece of work my man.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

CaterinaCK wrote:

You're welcome. It's fine if you want to "challenge conventional wisdoms" and all. But, it wouldn't kill you to be a little more receptive to other people's opinions or trying not to stereotype people.

You hit the nail on the head there, but it's a futile effort on your part. That's just his MO.

Byrnzie wrote:

My mistake for presuming that people who hire maids and nannies, can speak a number of different languages, and have lived in various parts of the world, are wealthy. An easy mistake to make. I'll try not to jump to conclusions next time.

Thanks for proving the point. You're a piece of work my man.

You couldn't resist adding your two cents worth could you.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

Edit: Just because someone happens to live in the country being discussed doesn't mean they have the final word on it.

No. But it does mean you might want to give their views some weight and merit. More so than some dude that lives in China and whose only knowledge of Venequela comes from news he has to steal around Chinese web censors.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

You couldn't resist adding your two cents worth could you.

No more than you could. Want to lecture me on the US constitution again? That went real well for you last time. Then you can get back to telling Venezuelan citizens that they don't know shit about their country's politics.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Edit: Just because someone happens to live in the country being discussed doesn't mean they have the final word on it.

No. But it does mean you might want to give their views some weight and merit. More so than some dude that lives in China and whose only knowledge of Venequela comes from news he has to steal around Chinese web censors.

I did give her 'views' [vague allegations] some weight. I gave them so much weight that I went to the trouble to research them to see if there was any supporting evidence for them. I didn't come up with much. But I took her word for it that there's documentary evidence available on the internet in Spanish.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

You couldn't resist adding your two cents worth could you.

No more than you could. Want to lecture me on the US constitution again? That went real well for you last time. Then you can get back to telling Venezuelan citizens that they don't know shit about their country's politics.

You're still stroking your ego over the fact that I was wrong about American law as it pertains to racial hatred on the internet? Wow, that one really must have a long shelf-life for you.

And at what point did I tell her that 'she doesn't know shit about their country's politics'?

You're not putting words in my mouth again are you?

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

You couldn't resist adding your two cents worth could you.

No more than you could. Want to lecture me on the US constitution again? That went real well for you last time. Then you can get back to telling Venezuelan citizens that they don't know shit about their country's politics.

You're still stroking your ego over the fact that I was wrong about American law as it pertains to racial hatred on the internet? Wow, that one really must have a long shelf-life for you.

Nah, just one of the few times anyone's been able to back you into a corner and get you to admit to being less than perfect. It was nice to see and I'd love for other people to do it more often because it's badly needed. But while we're talking about stroking egos, why don't you bump that post you made that pasted a bunch of quotes from people on other forums telling you you're a genius and a wonderful debater?

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

Nah, just one of the few times anyone's been able to back you into a corner and get you to admit to being less than perfect.

I never said I was perfect. Obstinate maybe, but not perfect.

Having the courage of one's convictions isn't the same as arrogance.

soulsinging wrote:

It was nice to see and I'd love for other people to do it more often because it's badly needed. But while we're talking about stroking egos, why don't you bump that post you made that pasted a bunch of quotes from people on other forums telling you you're a genius and a wonderful debater?

And I posted those quotes on a thread which asked what good people could do politically/socially. I just used those quotes as an example that even a fuck-wit like me can [appear to] make a difference.

Anyway, thanks for taking such a personal interest in everything I say and do. I'm not sure whether to be flattered or worried.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

I never said I was perfect. Obstinate maybe, but not perfect.

Having the courage of one's convictions isn't the same as arrogance.

Sounds like something George Dubya would say.

Byrnzie wrote:

And I posted those quotes on a thread which asked what good people could do politically/socially. I just used those quotes as an example that even a fuck-wit like me can [appear to] make a difference.

Anyway, thanks for taking such a personal interest in everything I say and do. I'm not sure whether to be flattered or worried.

Appear to being the active words there. Not actually. A bunch of people stroking each other off online about how right they all are doesn't equate to making a difference. The fact that Commy already believes everything you believe doesn't mean that him admiring your argument is somehow making a difference.

Be worried. The only people that get such interest from me are the most delusional and blindly ideologically partisan people I see. It's like a sore tooth I can't resist poking.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I never said I was perfect. Obstinate maybe, but not perfect.

Having the courage of one's convictions isn't the same as arrogance.

Sounds like something George Dubya would say.

Byrnzie wrote:

And I posted those quotes on a thread which asked what good people could do politically/socially. I just used those quotes as an example that even a fuck-wit like me can [appear to] make a difference.

Anyway, thanks for taking such a personal interest in everything I say and do. I'm not sure whether to be flattered or worried.

Appear to being the active words there. Not actually. A bunch of people stroking each other off online about how right they all are doesn't equate to making a difference. The fact that Commy already believes everything you believe doesn't mean that him admiring your argument is somehow making a difference.

Be worried. The only people that get such interest from me are the most delusional and blindly ideologically partisan people I see. It's like a sore tooth I can't resist poking.

So you compare me to George Dubya, and I'm delusional and blindly ideologically partisan? Righteo.

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

So you compare me to George Dubya, and I'm delusional and blindly ideologically partisan? Righteo.

Yes. "Courage of your convictions" to you seems to mean that you're either with Byrnzie, or with the evil people. You use the same tactics as Dubya. You disregard anything that contradicts you, make everything a moral issue with only one black and white possible answer, and whatever you believe first after cursory research is what you will believe to the end, irrationally defending it against all evidence to the contrary rather than admit that maybe you didn't know as much as you should have before you made your decision.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

So you compare me to George Dubya, and I'm delusional and blindly ideologically partisan? Righteo.

You disregard anything that contradicts you, make everything a moral issue with only one black and white possible answer, and whatever you believe first after cursory research is what you will believe to the end, irrationally defending it against all evidence to the contrary rather than admit that maybe you didn't know as much as you should have before you made your decision.

Care to provide an example?

soulsinging

Byrnzie wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

So you compare me to George Dubya, and I'm delusional and blindly ideologically partisan? Righteo.

You disregard anything that contradicts you, make everything a moral issue with only one black and white possible answer, and whatever you believe first after cursory research is what you will believe to the end, irrationally defending it against all evidence to the contrary rather than admit that maybe you didn't know as much as you should have before you made your decision.

Care to provide an example?

No. I'm too tired for a pissing match. But the shortcut is you go find a thread you posted in, and there you have it. Esp any thread dealing with America, China, Israel, or Palestine.

Byrnzie

soulsinging wrote:

You disregard anything that contradicts you, make everything a moral issue with only one black and white possible answer, and whatever you believe first after cursory research is what you will believe to the end, irrationally defending it against all evidence to the contrary rather than admit that maybe you didn't know as much as you should have before you made your decision.

Byrnzie wrote:

Care to provide an example?

soulsinging wrote:

No. I'm too tired for a pissing match.

I didn't ask for a pissing match, I asked for an example.

soulsinging wrote:

But the shortcut is you go find a thread you posted in, and there you have it. Esp any thread dealing with America, China, Israel, or Palestine.

Why don't you go find a thread I posted in? There's plenty to choose from. Knock yourself out. Far be it for me to stand in the way of your personal attack on me.

CaterinaCK

Byrnzie wrote:

CaterinaCK wrote:

You instantly casted me as a "rich americanized Venezuela", which invalidated everything I had to say (I'm not any of those, btw)

My mistake for presuming that people who hire maids and nannies, can speak a number of different languages, and have lived in various parts of the world, are wealthy. An easy mistake to make. I'll try not to jump to conclusions next time.

Edit: Just because someone happens to live in the country being discussed doesn't mean they have the final word on it.

Why do I bother in explaining this? Beats me, but I'm doing it anyways...

I said that I had an occasional babysitter. See, we had no family in Venezuela, it was just me, my parents and my younger sister. So, if my parents wanted you know, to do opulent stuff -like go out to the movies- guess what!!! They had to hire someone to take care of their two little girls... I never said that my family was poor. However, we were far from being rich. I lived a comfortable life with my parents, but nothing extravagant.

I moved to Venezuela when I was 3 years old, because my father was hired to work over there in 1976, it was a good opportunity and he took it. We stayed 17 years in Venezuela because we liked living there; but my parents' plan was always to return to Chile. Hence in 1993 we did that. I moved to BA in 1999 because I won an IADB scholarship to get a masters degree in Economics and Public Policy, and afterwards I got a job here... see, it's not like I'm George Soros heiress.

I speak English and Italian, besides Spanish. So what? Does that make me rich?

CaterinaCK

Byrnzie wrote:

[I did give her 'views' [vague allegations] some weight. I gave them so much weight that I went to the trouble to research them to see if there was any supporting evidence for them. I didn't come up with much. But I took her word for it that there's documentary evidence available on the internet in Spanish.

OK,this discussion is with Soulsinging (great Black Crowes song, BTW), but I have to chip in.

So, Byrnzie, you say my views are "vague allegations". I guess you're views are academic papers refuting Nash's Prisoners Dillema, right? I'm sorry but this is a forum thread, it's not the National Council of Economic Research, so I don't have to provide a bibliograhy for my "views". Nevertheless, I don't talk out of my behind and I've not made up a single thing.

So far you've given me links to wikipedia and some blogs. I did the same, so no difference. I told you what happened to Antonio Ledezma, Mayor of Libertador District in Caracas. He's from the opposition, so since Chavez did not like that he won, he goes and appoints, by decree, Jacqueline Farias, as "super major", stripping the elected major of all his constitutional attributions. Democracy at its best. If this story has not been available in English, it's definitely not my fault, but it has happened. The same goes for the continuous harrasment of Enrique Capriles Radonski, Governor of Miranda State.

I told you that José Manuel Vivanco, Director of Human Rights Watch, was raided out of the country by Venezuela's National Guard and put on plane to Sao Paulo, Brazil. Why? Because HRW latest report was critical. Is this a vague allegation too? This was on newspapers everywhere.

What about General Baduel, who was one of Chavez closest allies up to 2007. Actually, Gral. Baduel was the one who saved Chavez's ass during the 2002 coup. However, since he opposed indefinite re-election was imprisoned on october 2008, for alleged corruption charges, which were found, how convinient, when he stopped supporting Chavez. Yet, Diosdado Cabello and Jesse Chacón have never been even investigated?

I'd love to know how Jesse Chacón -one of Chavez closest collaborators- made his fortune...or how Chavez's parents, who've been school teachers their whole lives, became wealthy enough to buy farms in their homestate, Barinas. Former Chavista Wilmer Azuaje, member of the National Assembly representing Barinas, tried to investigate those farm purchases. Well, Azuaje's brother was assasinated this past February.

The mere fact that you think I'm making vague allegations proves that you know much less about Venezuela than you claim to. Because I've written about well known cases and stories, not about obscure characters. These are all well known people, major players in Venezuela´s politics.

But hey, you´re right and I am wrong...everything good and dandy in Venezuela. Especially with the economy, which is more reliant on oil than ever. Venezuela's importing almost all the food it consumes.

You know what really saddens me, that Chavez flushed down the toilet a great opportunity for Venezuela. There shouldn't be a single poor in Venezuela with all the money that entered the country for the past five years. It's unbelievable that PDVSA had to reduce workers' salaries in Maracaibo. Where did all the oil money go? Why is PDVSA issuing bonds to pay its contractors?

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

I guess you're views are academic papers refuting Nash's Prisoners Dillema, right?

Nah, I never said that. It's just that lot's of allegations were made and yet nothing was presented to support them. Call me old fashioned, but that equates to 'vague' in my book.

CaterinaCK wrote:

I'm sorry but this is a forum thread, it's not the National Council of Economic Research, so I don't have to provide a bibliograhy for my "views". Nevertheless, I don't talk out of my behind and I've not made up a single thing.

I didn't say that you had, but that doesn't mean your allegations/opinions shouldn't be questioned. As I said above, living in a particular country doesn't imbue your words with the gold standard of truth.

CaterinaCK wrote:

So far you've given me links to wikipedia and some blogs. I did the same, so no difference.

The difference being that the sources you posted are all in Spanish.

It just makes me wonder that, considering the U.S hates Chavez so much, why is none of this stuff readily available in English?

CaterinaCK wrote:

I told you what happened to Antonio Ledezma, Mayor of Libertador District in Caracas. He's from the opposition, so since Chavez did not like that he won, he goes and appoints, by decree, Jacqueline Farias, as "super major", stripping the elected major of all his constitutional attributions. Democracy at its best. If this story has not been available in English, it's definitely not my fault, but it has happened. The same goes for the continuous harrasment of Enrique Capriles Radonski, Governor of Miranda State.

I told you that José Manuel Vivanco, Director of Human Rights Watch, was raided out of the country by Venezuela's National Guard and put on plane to Sao Paulo, Brazil. Why? Because HRW latest report was critical. Is this a vague allegation too? This was on newspapers everywhere.

What about General Baduel, who was one of Chavez closest allies up to 2007. Actually, Gral. Baduel was the one who saved Chavez's ass during the 2002 coup. However, since he opposed indefinite re-election was imprisoned on october 2008, for alleged corruption charges, which were found, how convinient, when he stopped supporting Chavez. Yet, Diosdado Cabello and Jesse Chacón have never been even investigated?


I'd love to know how Jesse Chacón -one of Chavez closest collaborators- made his fortune...or how Chavez's parents, who've been school teachers their whole lives, became wealthy enough to buy farms in their homestate, Barinas. Former Chavista Wilmer Azuaje, member of the National Assembly representing Barinas, tried to investigate those farm purchases. Well, Azuaje's brother was assasinated this past February.

The mere fact that you think I'm making vague allegations proves that you know much less about Venezuela than you claim to.

I never claimed to be an expert on Venezuela. I asked for some evidence of corruption. Somebody posted 6 links on here which didn't explain anything. Then you came along and threw out a bunch of names and accusations and everyone was expected to prostrate themselves before you.
You began your first post with an air of arrogance, stating in as many words that you couldn't be bothered to discuss this issue because as far as you were concerned you'd already discussed it before and so, therefore, why should you have to bother explaining your point again for us ignorant types who live north of the Rio Grande?

I then questioned your allegations - asking for some supporting evidence - and you pointed to my 'ignorance' and 'bigotry'.

CaterinaCK wrote:

But hey, you´re right and I am wrong...

So you keep saying.

Though I never once said you were wrong. I merely asked for some elaboration/clarification, evidence e.t.c. Seems like you think it's enough to simply throw a few allegations and Venezuelan names into the mix and everyone should automatically bow graciously and accept your every word as the final word on the matter. Sorry, but I don't play that way.

CaterinaCK wrote:

Where did all the oil money go? Why is PDVSA issuing bonds to pay its contractors?

I thought you had all the answers?

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

Why do I bother in explaining this? Beats me, but I'm doing it anyways...

Word of advice...don't begin every post this way.