The War on Democracy

Byrnzie

Google Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9629840148




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_on_Democracy
'The War on Democracy is a 2007 award-winning documentary film directed by Christopher Martin and John Pilger.[1] Focusing on the political state of Latin America, the film is a rebuke of both the United States' intervention in foreign countries' domestic politics, and its War on Terrorism...

Set both in Latin America and the United States, the film explores the historic and current relationship of Washington with countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia and Chile. Pilger claims that the film "...tells a universal story... analysing and revealing, through vivid testimony, the story of great power behind its venerable myths. It allows us to understand the true nature of the so-called "war on terror". According to Pilger, the film’s message is that the greed and power of empire is not invincible and that people power is always the "seed beneath the snow".

Pilger interviews several ex-CIA agents who purportedly took part in secret campaigns against democratic countries and who he claims are profiting from the war in Iraq. He investigates the School of the Americas in the U.S. state of Georgia, where General Pinochet’s torture squads were reportedly trained along with tyrants and death-squad leaders in Haiti, El Salvador, Brazil and Argentina.

The film uses archive footage to support its claim that democracy has been wiped out in country after country in Latin America since the 1950s. Testimonies from those who fought for democracy in Chile and Bolivia are also used.

Segments filmed in Bolivia show that for the last five years huge popular movements have demanded that multinational companies be refused to access the country's natural reserves of gas, or to buy up the water supply. In Bolivia, Pilger interviews people who say that their country's resources, including their water and rainwater, were asset stripped by multinational interests. He describes how they threw out a foreign water consortium and reclaimed their water supply. The narrative leads to the landslide election of the country's first indigenous President.

In Chile, Pilger talks to women who survived the pogroms of General Augusto Pinochet, in remembrance of colleagues who perished at the hands of the dictator. He walks with Sara de Witt through the grounds of the torture house in which she was tortured and survived. Pilger also investigates the "model democracy" that Chile has become and claims that there is a façade of prosperity and that Pinochet’s legacy is still alive.

The film also tells the story of an American nun, Dianna Ortiz, who tells how she was tortured and gang raped in the late 1980s by a gang reportedly led by a fellow American clearly in league with the U.S.-backed regime, at a time when the Reagan administration was supplying the military regime with planes and guns. Ortiz asks whether the American people are aware of the role their country plays in subverting innocent nations under the guise of a "war on terror". Former CIA agent and Watergate scandal conspirator Howard Hunt, who describes how he and others overthrew the previously democratically elected government. Hunt describes how he organised "a little harmless bombing". Duane Clarridge, former head of CIA operations in South America is also interviewed.

Pilger traveled through Venezuela with its president, Hugo Chavez, who he regards as the only leader of an oil-producing nation who has used its resources democratically for the education and health of its people. The Venezuelan segment of the film features the coup of 2002, captured in archival footage. The film holds that the 2002 coup against Chavez was backed by rich and powerful interests under U.S. support and that Chavez was brought back to power by the Venezuelan people. Pilger describes the advances in Venezuela’s new social democracy, but he also questions Chavez on why there are still poor people in such an oil-rich country.'

FiveB247x

Wrote this a while ago: http://political-illusions.blogspot.com ... cracy.html

Commy

greed and power of empire is not invincible and...people power is always the "seed beneath the snow"



this would be my sig if i could change it.


Five, your blog kicks ass.

FiveB247x

Thanks!

Kotov Syndrome wrote:

greed and power of empire is not invincible and...people power is always the "seed beneath the snow"



this would be my sig if i could change it.


Five, your blog kicks ass.

Byrnzie

Very good documentary this.

Let's you see why Americans hate Chavez so much - taking money out of the hands of U.S corporations and giving it back to the people of his own country. What a wackjob!

FiveB247x

Let's not lose our heads here.. yes you are correct, but he also is a dictator who has a laundry list of human rights abuses. Nothing to marvel at.

Byrnzie wrote:

Very good documentary this.

Let's you see why Americans hate Chavez so much - taking money out of the hands of U.S corporations and giving it back to the people of his own country. What a wackjob!

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

he also is a dictator who has a laundry list of human rights abuses.

Such as?

FiveB247x

Just a few of the larger issues - you know like democracy, freedom, equality. But let's praise him because he stands up to our nation? As I said before, Chavez and his government are nothing to marvel at.

http://www.hrw.org/en/americas/venezuela

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... h%C3%A1vez

Byrnzie wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

he also is a dictator who has a laundry list of human rights abuses.

Such as?

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

Just a few of the larger issues - you know like democracy, freedom, equality. But let's praise him because he stands up to our nation? As I said before, Chavez and his government are nothing to marvel at.

http://www.hrw.org/en/americas/venezuela

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... h%C3%A1vez

Byrnzie wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

he also is a dictator who has a laundry list of human rights abuses.

Such as?

Would you like to focus on any particular issue, as opposed to just posting Amnesty's and HRW's webpages?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... h%C3%A1vez
'As of December 2004, Amnesty International had documented at least 14 deaths and at least 200 wounded during confrontations between anti-Chávez demonstrators and National Guard, police, and other security personnel in February and March 2004.'

This particular issue was thoroughly debunked and is something addressed in the above documentary.


And as for investigating a t.v station, so what? The documentary also focuses on these opposition backed t.v stations and what they are able to get away with - constant criticism of the Chavez leadership, and comparing Chavez to Hitler every morning of the week. One of the links you provide merely points out that one of these t.v stations is being investigated for recently attempting to instigate a civil war. Another t.v station was not permitted to renew it's license in 2007 after openly supporting the failed U.S backed coup attempt. Seems fair enough to me.

FiveB247x

Listen, no one is saying Chavez is Hitler, but let's be honest, is he really promoting democracy, freedom, justice, equality and the types of moral princicples we as a nation or people want to admire in a leader or even a nation? The clear answer is no. So albeit, he demonstrates resistance to US power and empire, it's still nothing we should marvel or want for ourselves in realms of practice or preaching to a free, just society.

Byrnzie wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... h%C3%A1vez
'As of December 2004, Amnesty International had documented at least 14 deaths and at least 200 wounded during confrontations between anti-Chávez demonstrators and National Guard, police, and other security personnel in February and March 2004.'

This particular issue was thoroughly debunked and is something addressed in the above documentary.


And as for investigating a t.v station, so what? The documentary also focuses on these opposition backed t.v stations and what they are able to get away with - constant criticism of the Chavez leadership, and comparing Chavez to Hitler every morning of the week. One of the links you provide merely points out that one of these t.v stations is being investigated for recently attempting to instigate a civil war. Another t.v station was not permitted to renew it's license in 2007 after openly supporting the failed U.S backed coup attempt. Seems fair enough to me.

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

is he really promoting democracy, freedom, justice, equality and the types of moral princicples we as a nation or people want to admire in a leader or even a nation? The clear answer is no.

With all due respect, I don't think the people of Venezuela give a flying fuck what Americans think about Chavez. The people of Venezuela voted for him, and they continue to vote for him. And there's many reasons why they continue voting for him:

http://ww.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1406
'...there's no gainsaying the fact that Chavez first won office, in 1998, in a fair election with 56 percent of the vote, or that since then he has prevailed in several electoral tests—not to mention a general strike and a coup attempt—growing steadily in popularity each time. Nor is there any denying that he has brought into the democratic process, for the first time, large numbers of Venezuela's poor, most of whom live in the ranchos, or shanty towns, that ring the cities. (As for his alleged class baiting, in a country where the poor account for about 80 percent of the population and where income inequality is extreme and glaring, democratic politics can’t help but involve issues of class—and race: Venezuela's poor are disproportionately black and indigenous.) Through a string of "missions" the Chavez government has brought healthcare and education to many of the ranchos and rural areas, which before now have seen little of either. The missions are financed by proceeds from Venezuela's oil industry, control of which Chavez seized after the 2002 coup attempt (another sore point for opponents), and which, against expectation, is humming along quite nicely. (Also worth noting: for all that he fulminates against "neo-liberalist" free trade, and for all that he has expanded the role of the state in Venezuela's economy, Chavez's economic policy is fairly eclectic: he's pushed hard to have Venezuela admitted to Mercosur, the South American free trade bloc, and he's an energetic courtier of foreign investment.)'

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

is he really promoting democracy, freedom, justice, equality and the types of moral princicples we as a nation or people want to admire in a leader or even a nation? The clear answer is no.

Maybe you can explain why the clear answer is 'No'?

So far you've not provided even one reason.

FiveB247x

Not one good reason? Would you want to live in a nation where the government cracks down on censorship, media, human rights, equality and similar? In any society, we should be striving for justice, freedom, democracy and all that goes along with having an "open society". Chavez does not do this, in fact just because they have "elections" doesn't mean it's a free society. Many dictatorships or one party systems have open and free elections and win by landslides all the time.

Let me pose you this question - what does Chavez and his government do that we should marvel over or want to emmulate? Seems to me many simply hand out credit to him simply because he speaks and tries to undermind the US power and empire, but people ignore the bad things he does which hurt his own nation and people.

Byrnzie wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

is he really promoting democracy, freedom, justice, equality and the types of moral princicples we as a nation or people want to admire in a leader or even a nation? The clear answer is no.

Maybe you can explain why the clear answer is 'No'?

So far you've not provided even one reason.

cincybearcat

FiveB247x wrote:

Not one good reason? Would you want to live in a nation where the government cracks down on censorship, media, human rights, equality and similar?

He does, and he likes it.

FiveB247x

Apparently.

cincybearcat wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Not one good reason? Would you want to live in a nation where the government cracks down on censorship, media, human rights, equality and similar?

He does, and he likes it.

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

Not one good reason? Would you want to live in a nation where the government cracks down on censorship, media, human rights, equality and similar?

Care to provide an example?

FiveB247x

In my prior post of links from HRW and AI, they're articles and mentions of these issues. Please look at the links - they provide many stories and instances of these topics.

Can you provide an example of why we should want to emmulate Chavez and his policies?

Byrnzie wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Not one good reason? Would you want to live in a nation where the government cracks down on censorship, media, human rights, equality and similar?

Care to provide an example?

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

In my prior post of links from HRW and AI, they're articles and mentions of these issues. Please look at the links - they provide many stories and instances of these topics.

Great. Pick one of those examples out and we'll examine it in detail.

FiveB247x wrote:

Can you provide an example of why we should want to emmulate Chavez and his policies?

Taking the big money out of the hands of foreign corporations and distributing it among the poor of your own country.

FiveB247x

Yeah, these are all wonderful moral and philosophical efforts we as humans should attempt to follow and create in other societies? Gimme a break.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/18/v ... der-ch-vez

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/10/09/h ... man-rights

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/19/v ... n-expelled

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/06/02/v ... guerrillas

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/10/15/v ... ue-process

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ ... 05/2004/en

Byrnzie

FiveB247x wrote:

Yeah, these are all wonderful moral and philosophical efforts we as humans should attempt to follow and create in other societies? Gimme a break.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/18/v ... der-ch-vez

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/10/09/h ... man-rights

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/09/19/v ... n-expelled

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/06/02/v ... guerrillas

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/10/15/v ... ue-process

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ ... 05/2004/en

O.k, I'll do the work for you then shall I?:

http://www.goproxing.biz/index.php?q=aH ... Xo%3D&hl=0
'Venezuela still enjoys a vibrant public debate in which anti-government and pro-government media are equally vocal in their criticism and defense of Chávez. However, by expanding and toughening the penalties for speech and broadcasting offenses, Chávez and his legislative supporters have strengthened the state’s capacity to limit free speech, and created powerful incentives for critics to engage in self-censorship.'

How is this is any way different to the U.S? I'm sure there are 'broadcasting offences' in the U.S also.


'The Chávez government has engaged in wide-ranging acts of discrimination against political opponents and critics. At times, the president himself has openly endorsed acts of discrimination. More generally, he has encouraged the discriminatory actions of subordinates by routinely denouncing his critics as anti-democratic conspirators – regardless of whether they had any connection to the 2002 coup.'

How is this different to the U.S?


'A constitutional amendment proposed by a pro-government committee in Venezuela’s National Assembly would allow the suspension of due process protections, Human Rights Watch said today.

The amendment would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights in states of emergency...

Proponents of the amendment have argued that the government needs to have free rein to suspend due process and other rights, including the right to freedom of information, in the event of another coup attempt like that which occurred in April of 2002 against President Hugo Chávez.'

How is this different to the U.S and it's use of arbitrary detention in times of emergency as practiced following 9/11 and as outlined in the Patriot Act?

FiveB247x

Ok, firstly, the link you posted doesn't show the source of your information so if you could please say which source you're posting from, it would be appreciated. I clicked the link and it doesn't show anything more than ads.

Secondly, from what you posted in type, all it does is morally denounce the US's deteriorating democracy and practice in order to justify Chavez's practices. That's nothing to justify wrong-doing, merely deter guilt by saying, hey look at others doing bad things too, so it makes it ok if we do as well. That's not anything you or anyone else should be pronouncing as good, moral or common practice others should employ.

Lastly, you haven't really addressed the links I posted from reputable organizations with no real bias other than practicing fair human rights and justice (something everyone should want to promote). Please feel free to discuss Chavez's ill-record as discussed in the articles I posted, which you've yet to do.

Byrnzie wrote:

O.k, I'll do the work for you then shall I?:

http://www.goproxing.biz/index.php?q=aH ... Xo%3D&hl=0
'Venezuela still enjoys a vibrant public debate in which anti-government and pro-government media are equally vocal in their criticism and defense of Chávez. However, by expanding and toughening the penalties for speech and broadcasting offenses, Chávez and his legislative supporters have strengthened the state’s capacity to limit free speech, and created powerful incentives for critics to engage in self-censorship.'

How is this is any way different to the U.S? I'm sure there are 'broadcasting offences' in the U.S also.


'The Chávez government has engaged in wide-ranging acts of discrimination against political opponents and critics. At times, the president himself has openly endorsed acts of discrimination. More generally, he has encouraged the discriminatory actions of subordinates by routinely denouncing his critics as anti-democratic conspirators – regardless of whether they had any connection to the 2002 coup.'

How is this different to the U.S?


'A constitutional amendment proposed by a pro-government committee in Venezuela’s National Assembly would allow the suspension of due process protections, Human Rights Watch said today.

The amendment would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights in states of emergency...

Proponents of the amendment have argued that the government needs to have free rein to suspend due process and other rights, including the right to freedom of information, in the event of another coup attempt like that which occurred in April of 2002 against President Hugo Chávez.'

How is this different to the U.S and it's use of arbitrary detention in times of emergency as practiced following 9/11 and as outlined in the Patriot Act?