The War on Democracy

CaterinaCK

Byrnzie wrote:

It just makes me wonder that, considering the U.S hates Chavez so much, why is none of this stuff readily available in English?

I told you what happened to Antonio Ledezma, Mayor of Libertador District in Caracas. He's from the opposition, so since Chavez did not like that he won, he goes and appoints, by decree, Jacqueline Farias, as "super major", stripping the elected major of all his constitutional attributions. Democracy at its best. If this story has not been available in English, it's definitely not my fault, but it has happened. The same goes for the continuous harrasment of Enrique Capriles Radonski, Governor of Miranda State.

I told you that José Manuel Vivanco, Director of Human Rights Watch, was raided out of the country by Venezuela's National Guard and put on plane to Sao Paulo, Brazil. Why? Because HRW latest report was critical. Is this a vague allegation too? This was on newspapers everywhere.

What about General Baduel, who was one of Chavez closest allies up to 2007. Actually, Gral. Baduel was the one who saved Chavez's ass during the 2002 coup. However, since he opposed indefinite re-election was imprisoned on october 2008, for alleged corruption charges, which were found, how convinient, when he stopped supporting Chavez. Yet, Diosdado Cabello and Jesse Chacón have never been even investigated?


I'd love to know how Jesse Chacón -one of Chavez closest collaborators- made his fortune...or how Chavez's parents, who've been school teachers their whole lives, became wealthy enough to buy farms in their homestate, Barinas. Former Chavista Wilmer Azuaje, member of the National Assembly representing Barinas, tried to investigate those farm purchases. Well, Azuaje's brother was assasinated this past February.

The mere fact that you think I'm making vague allegations proves that you know much less about Venezuela than you claim to.

I never claimed to be an expert on Venezuela. I asked for some evidence of corruption. Somebody posted 6 links on here which didn't explain anything. Then you came along and threw out a bunch of names and accusations and everyone was expected to prostrate themselves before you.
You began your first post with an air of arrogance, stating in as many words that you couldn't be bothered to discuss this issue because as far as you were concerned you'd already discussed it before and so, therefore, why should you have to bother explaining your point again for us ignorant types who live north of the Rio Grande?

I then questioned your allegations - asking for some supporting evidence - and you pointed to my 'ignorance' and 'bigotry'.

CaterinaCK wrote:

But hey, you´re right and I am wrong...

So you keep saying.

Though I never once said you were wrong. I merely asked for some elaboration/clarification, evidence e.t.c. Seems like you think it's enough to simply throw a few allegations and Venezuelan names into the mix and everyone should automatically bow graciously and accept your every word as the final word on the matter. Sorry, but I don't play that way.

CaterinaCK wrote:

Where did all the oil money go? Why is PDVSA issuing bonds to pay its contractors?
I thought you had all the answers?

I'm going to make a mess with the quotes, so apologies in advance.

You think US news outlets cover everything that happens in Venezuela? This may surprise you, but besides the usual right-wing nuts like Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly, I think your expression "the US hates Venezuela so much" is inaccurate (before you lecture me, I know about the 2002 coup d'etat). US imports less than 20% of its oil from Venezuela. In reality, Venezuela has much more to loose from severing its ties to the US that the other way around. Miami newspapers pay more attention to Venezuela because there's a growing Venezuelan community over there. News about Venezuela are usually in Spanish, because it is Spanish speaking countries where Chavez policies have the biggest impact.

Nevertheless, there are links in English for everything a wrote about:

1) Major Ledezma-Jacqueline Farias: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=79654, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Ledezma, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=7337919

2) José Manuel Vivanco: http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/media/091908.html, http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/det ... cia=322913, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26792610/

3) General Baduel: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... OxzWmF6N1g, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/opini ... ntributors (an editorial by Baduel himself)

4) Wilmer Azuaje: http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/02/19/e ... 2231.shtml, http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3309

I never said you are a bigot, if my sentence construction made you feel like that, I'm sorry, I did not mean to insult you

The questions about the oil money were rethorical, I don't know for sure what happened to all those gazillions, but I can assure you they have not been well spent. Infrastructure in Venezuela is crumbling down, there's still poverty and extreme poverty, rampant inflation, fiscal deficit, PDVSA workers salaries are being cut down; yet there are lot of chavistas that have become extremely wealthy in a short period of time...

CaterinaCK

Byrnzie wrote:

CaterinaCK wrote:

Why do I bother in explaining this? Beats me, but I'm doing it anyways...

Word of advice...don't begin every post this way.

You are probably right.

The thing is, it gets tiring for me. Every time I make a post about Chavez, I have to prove that I'm not Ann Coulter's daughter, that I'm not a Republican, that I'm not from the US, that I'm not a spoiled rich brat upset about losing privileges, that I'm not making stuff up, etc, etc. Which, BTW, I shouldn't because -as far as I'm concerned- I still should be entitled to an opinion, I do it because for me it is important, because I care deeply about Venezuela and its people, and it makes me sad to see all that's going on over there. So, yes I'm passionate about the issue and sometimes I fail to be as rational as I should when making an argument...

I'm none of those things, specially not Ann Coulter's daughter

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

there are links in English for everything a wrote about:

1) Major Ledezma-Jacqueline Farias: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=79654, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Ledezma, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=7337919

2) José Manuel Vivanco: http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/media/091908.html, http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/det ... cia=322913, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26792610/

3) General Baduel: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... OxzWmF6N1g, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/opini ... ntributors (an editorial by Baduel himself)

4) Wilmer Azuaje: http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/02/19/e ... 2231.shtml, http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3309

Thanks, I'll check these out tomorrow when I have more time.

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

The thing is, it gets tiring for me. Every time I make a post about Chavez, I have to prove that I'm not Ann Coulter's daughter, that I'm not a Republican, that I'm not from the US, that I'm not a spoiled rich brat upset about losing privileges, that I'm not making stuff up, etc, etc. Which, BTW, I shouldn't because -as far as I'm concerned- I still should be entitled to an opinion, I do it because for me it is important, because I care deeply about Venezuela and its people, and it makes me sad to see all that's going on over there. So, yes I'm passionate about the issue and sometimes I fail to be as rational as I should when making an argument...

I'm none of those things, specially not Ann Coulter's daughter

That's the thing...when presenting alternative/unfamiliar viewpoints, or unpopular views, you have to be clear, otherwise it's easy for people [such as me, in this instance] to dismiss them. I've learned the hard way when discussing Israel/Palestine that unless you slam the facts down loud and clear for everyone to see then people won't pay attention, or will continue re-hashing the standard media-fed bullshit.

Anyway, as far as Chavez and Venezuela go, I admit I'm no expert, but he seems like he's been trying to do the right thing with the majority of people in that country - especially the underprivileged. I wasn't aware of any human rights abuses or such like, and so I'll read through those links you posted tomorrow and tell you what I think.

Byrnzie

CaterinaCK wrote:

Nevertheless, there are links in English for everything a wrote about:

1) Major Ledezma-Jacqueline Farias: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=79654, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Ledezma, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=7337919

There's no doubt here that Chavez's party has abused it's power. On the other hand, you have to give it to him...he sure has balls [and a sense of humour]:

'...It also remained unclear how the money would be distributed afterwards. Doubts were sparked by a remark from National Assembly Deputy Germán Ferrer, a member of the finance committee, to the effect that the budget legislation represented an “act of justice” for Libertador, the only municipality in Caracas still controlled by the Chávez camp in the wake of the elections.

Until the new law, claimed Ferrer, resources allotted to the capital had been “distributed to the five municipalities” that made up the old Metropolitan District of Caracas.

Libertador in west Caracas is by far the biggest of the capital’s municipalities – and arguably, quite easily the most problematic as well. It includes large swathes of inadequate housing, water supply and sewage systems, as well as the highest per capita crime rate of any of the five municipalities, plus mountains of uncollected garbage and other shortcomings.'

CaterinaCK wrote:

2) José Manuel Vivanco: http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/media/091908.html, http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/det ... cia=322913, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26792610/

This expulsion was certainly a bit harsh, and it seems also to have been a bit counter-productive. It'd be interesting to know what, if any, problems the other international human rights organizations have encountered in Venezuela.

CaterinaCK wrote:

3) General Baduel: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... OxzWmF6N1g, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/opini ... ntributors (an editorial by Baduel himself)

Any news on the outcome of these corruption charges?

CaterinaCK wrote:

4) Wilmer Azuaje: http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/02/19/e ... 2231.shtml, http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3309

So the people [I.e, Wilmer Azuaje] investigating Chavez's brothers also happens to be jockeying for a position as 'candidate for governor of Barinas'.

'...Argenis Chávez claimed he sold the only farm he ever owned 5 years ago. He insisted that not only Azuaje, but also the two other possible candidates for governor, Frenchy Díaz and Julio Cesar Reyes, should be investigated for campaign finance irregularities.'

Sounds like the usual kind of bickering and cross-accusations we find in all pre-election periods. How did it turn out in the end?