Everyone needs to watch this video

NoK wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

that would be me. and I must be INSANE to call for an end to violence. what ever was I thinking? second of all, it would help their cause. for one, Israel wouldn't have a reason to smack the fuck out of them.

but according to you, Palestinians should continue (rocket) attacks on Israel. please tell me, how do those benefit the Palestinian cause?

(if Hamas publicly announced they would stop attacks and renounce violence)

I think Israel would lift the blockade on Gaza, provide aid, and discuss giving back occupied land with pressure from the Obama administration and Congress.

I think Israel would run out of excuses to use airstrikes and military incursions.

You keep accusing Byrnzie of misquoting you when every post you have quoted me on you have misquoted me to further your argument. Did you even read my post? Where did I say this "Palestinians should continue (rocket) attacks on Israel"? I said the attacks WORKED.

rocket attacks worked? how? what did they accomplish? you said you dont understand how someone could want Palestinians to stop attacks. well call me crazy, but that means you want them to continue. I'm not misquoting you.

NoK wrote:

I just told you the israelis DID NOT NEED A REASON to start wars or to grab more land.. and even then the world supported them. That was back in the days when Hamas did not even exist. Just a few years back they had internal and external "control" over Gaza with checkpoints and troops riddled everywhere in Gaza. The only thing that drove them out was the fact that they could not sustain the occupation BECAUSE OF THE PALESTINIAN ATTACKS. Yes the attacks worked. Just like the attacks by Hizbullah in Lebanese territory worked to drive the idf out of southern Lebanon in 2000. The Palestinians tried the peaceful route in the 70's and what did it get them? Assassinations.. but you probably call that "history" now.

again, are you not suggesting the rocket attacks should continue? by all means, correct me if I'm wrong. you really seem to think they work. personally I think its fucking moronic for them to do so. that will just bring more death and destruction.

NoK wrote:

You also talk about how israel will open the borders if Palestinians halt attacks. Well guess what.. Hamas tried that already and the israelis refused to open up the borders and eventually broke the ceasefire. Even to this day there are airstrikes on Gaza that go unreported and Hamas isn't even sending rockets out. So your whole argument is pointless.

according to some reports, the "ceasefire" was broken when Israel found Hamas digging a tunnel into Israel. are you really shocked Israel tried to stop that from happening? I'm not.

and guess what, EVERYTIME Israel launches airstrikes, their excuse is to "stop bombing making factories" or a Hamas military installation, etc etc. my suggestion is for Hamas to stop giving Israel targets. I know you think my suggestion of peace is pointless but its really not.

NoK wrote:

Do you want to know why Byrnzie tells you your argument is pro-Israeli. It is because you keep saying "oh they should both stop any violence for there to be peace". If both sides were losing then your argument would be the best way out but in this case one side is gaining excessively and the other is losing excessively. Your argument may work well in most cases but not in the case of a zionist movement that has ethnic cleansing as one of its goals.

the US will stop supporting Israel if attacks Hamas (after Hamas has laid down its arms and said all attacks on Israel will stop). you can point to the 70s all you want but times are different now.

my main point here is that rocket attacks DO NOTHING to help the Palestinians.

NoK wrote:

You failed to answer the question I posed so I'll answer it for you. What would it get the Palestinians if they halted attacks and told they israelis we have given up all our weapons? It'll get them the terrorist state of GREATER israel.

first of all, dont answer shit for me. second of all, I did answer your question.

jlew24asu wrote:

(if Hamas publicly announced they would stop attacks and renounce violence)

I think Israel would lift the blockade on Gaza, provide aid, and discuss giving back occupied land with pressure from the Obama administration and Congress.

I think Israel would run out of excuses to use airstrikes and military incursions.

So all of the onus is on the Palestinians? That's like the Nazis saying that until the Jewish partisan groups and the other resistance movements lay down their weapons and renounce violence the Nazis will continue to maintain their brutal military occupation.

The fact is the Palestinians have adhered to numerous ceasefires and they have always been repaid with more violence, and with increased settlement building.
You ask Hamas to renounce violence. Why are you not also asking Israel to renounce violence?

soulsinging wrote:

What are you a lawyer or something? If you want to play semantics, by all means, have fun diddling yourself all day. We said innocent, unarmed, civilians, and a half dozen other descriptors at various times. I think it was plenty clear who we were referring to. But if playing dumb helps you feel like you were right and vindicated, don't let me piss on your parade.

If you're carrying a bat or rocks, you're not unarmed. If you're assaulting, abusing, or harassing, you're not innocent. Clear?

Don't pretend that was your angle all along, because it wasn't. You said innocent civilians & unarmed civilians. You failed to account for the mass of violent settlers who didn't fall into your cozy categories.

You and Jlew excel at playing semantics, putting words in others mouths, and generally muddying the water with your bullshit, so how about you take that stick out of your ass?

jlew24asu wrote:

should Hamas continue rocket attacks on Israel ?

Another bullshit question which only proves that you still completely miss the point.

jlew24asu wrote:

if you stop this ^^^

Commy wrote:

and continue to be barricaded and bombed and kept in a police state/concentration camp?

this will not continue.


its at least worth a try.

They've already tried it. They adhered to the ceasefire last year and the result was that Israel carried out an incursion and murdered 6 Palestinians.

What have you got to say about that?

jlew24asu wrote:

(if Hamas publicly announced they would stop attacks and renounce violence)

Byrnzie wrote:

I don't think there's any misunderstanding in what you're saying here. Hamas must renounce violence, and then Israel - being the benevolent, civilized nation that it is - will follow suit and stop 'retaliating'.

yes. thats what I'm saying. thats just a hopeful guess. and, in my opinion, worth a shot for Hamas. the alternative (firing rockets into Israel) has not done them any good.

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

(if Hamas publicly announced they would stop attacks and renounce violence)

I think Israel would lift the blockade on Gaza, provide aid, and discuss giving back occupied land with pressure from the Obama administration and Congress.

I think Israel would run out of excuses to use airstrikes and military incursions.

And what is Israel's excuse right now for continuing to build illegal settlements? Are you suggesting that the settlements are related to Hamas' rocket attacks? If not, then why are illegal Jewish-only settlements still being built?

no thats not what I'm suggesting. and ask the jews why they continue to build illegal settlements. I have nothing to do with that.

soulsinging wrote:

Hardly. Israel can't be trusted. What I'm saying is that the guy getting robbed needs to get the guy FINANCING the guy who's robbing him to withdraw his support. Israel is irrelevant. They aren't going to stop until the US pulls the plug on them. They have no reason to. Palestine's ONLY hope to gain some measure of justice is to take the US out of the equation so that the international protections and laws can work.

I agree.

soulsinging wrote:

To do that...i believe Palestine needs to lay down its arms. The guy hitting him with the baseball might not stop, but the guy that bought and gave him the bat might take it back and now you've got a fairer fight.

The Palestinians have been getting crushed for 60 years. What makes you think that Americans will give them the sympathy vote if they now simply agree to lay down and die? Look what just happened in Gaza - it was a massacre. 1,300 Palestinians snuffed out. 9 israeli's, 4 of whom were killed by friendly fire. Where was the sympathy in America? The U.S blocked a U.N resolution calling for an immediate end to hostilities. It was fucking disgraceful.
Let's just hope that Obama doesn't follow suit. It would be great if at the next U.N vote on 242 the Americans didn't obstruct a peaceful settlement again and veto it.

jlew24asu wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

(if Hamas publicly announced they would stop attacks and renounce violence)

Byrnzie wrote:

I don't think there's any misunderstanding in what you're saying here. Hamas must renounce violence, and then Israel - being the benevolent, civilized nation that it is - will follow suit and stop 'retaliating'.

yes. thats what I'm saying. thats just a hopeful guess. and, in my opinion, worth a shot for Hamas. the alternative (firing rockets into Israel) has not done them any good.

So you admit that you think that Israel is a benevolent peaceful nation and that all of the past 60 years of bloodshed has been the fault of the Palestinians fighting back? Go ahead and let me know if I've in any way distorted what you said.

Are you saying that the Palestinian attacks against Israeli's are responsible for this?:

jlew24asu wrote:

yup. we said innocent and unarmed civillians. "violent settlers" do not fall into that category. where is the confusion?

Thanks for clearing that up for me. So you and Soulsinging disagree then. As far as you're concerned, settlers who verbally abuse old men and women, spit at them, and beat them with their fists, qualify as innocent civilians? The settlers in the article I posted above, who, on a daily basis were recorded abusing schoolgirls on their way to school, beating them with their fists, and throwing rocks at them, constitute innocent civilians?