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polaris_x wrote:jlew24asu wrote:does this include a group of 7 year olds playing in the front yard of a house that sits on "occupied" land? and they open for retaliation? are they valid targets? do they deserve to die?
no they do not deserve to die - no children deserves to die ... but how many innocent 7 year old israelis have died in this conflict in the last decade? ... compare that to palestinian children ... this is not meant to justify specific actions rather just to highlight that in the grand scheme of things - they aren't the primary target of palestinian retaliation ...
Our point is that they shouldn't even be a tangential target of Palestinian retaliation. Does the fact that Israel kills more children make it ok for Palestinians to kill less? Far as I'm concerned, one dead kid is too many. And you don't get off the hook by pointing out that the other guys killed more. Just like the US fire-bombing Dresden or dropping bombs on Japan can't be justified by saying that the Nazis killed more innocents than we did. Our cause was just, our means were not.
But you're saying that it is perfectly ok for Palestinians to kill children because Israel does it more and because the Palestinians only do it on purpose sometimes. That's fucked up. Period.0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
are you positive that if you come to steal my stereo i can't shoot you?
Answer my question first, and then I'll answer yours.0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:To my knowledge, there's never been a sit in, and I certainly can't think of any sustained non-violent effort by Hamas. That's their prerogative though. It tooks years for the US non-violent resistance to gain equal rights for blacks, and that was after a number of disgusting atrocities. But the current situation, to the American public, looks like a war where all is fair. Until it becomes clear that this is a fascist, violent, brutally oppressive police state, American support for Israel will not waver. The more Hamas targets civilians for violence, the longer that will take. It's not fair, but that's life.
hamas wouldn't exist without the israeli oppression and settlements ... that's the point ... years upon years of resolutions trying to get them to stop but they didn't cuz of US support ... remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ... do you think hamas would exist if israel wasn't oppressing the palestinians?
if you believe "that's life" - then i'm not sure why you are upset when palestinians decide to fight back because "that's life" to them
Because I believe that those that claim their cause is morally right lose credibility to that claim when they behave immorally. It's why I'm appalled at the US's stance on torture. Our unwillingness to do that sort of thing is what is supposed to set us apart from our enemies. Once we sink to their level, we become no better than them. I feel the same on this issue. Israel is a the bad guy here, but I hate to see Palestine sink to their level.0 -
jlew24asu wrote:ok maybe I'm confused by your anaolgy. if someone breaks into my house what would I do. my answer, go to the police. if someone steals a Palestinian's home, what do they do? go to the police - Hamas.
right?
no ... it is clear the settlers do not respect palestinian law - so, what point is there to going to local palestinian police? ... i'm assuming you would appeal to the israeli authorities then and to any higher authority you think might be able to help? ... what do you do when every single entity you appeal to does not help you?jlew24asu wrote:but it is that simple. there are many innocent children who live on land within post 1967 borders. according to you, they are valid targets. soul and I are firmly saying that its WRONG to target them.
i don't believe they should be targeted specifically but if they get caught in someone's attempt to get back their land - as soul would say "that's life"0 -
soulsinging wrote:Our point is that they shouldn't even be a tangential target of Palestinian retaliation. Does the fact that Israel kills more children make it ok for Palestinians to kill less? Far as I'm concerned, one dead kid is too many. And you don't get off the hook by pointing out that the other guys killed more. Just like the US fire-bombing Dresden or dropping bombs on Japan can't be justified by saying that the Nazis killed more innocents than we did. Our cause was just, our means were not.
But you're saying that it is perfectly ok for Palestinians to kill children because Israel does it more and because the Palestinians only do it on purpose sometimes. That's fucked up. Period.
where have i said it's ok for palestinians to kill children because israel does it more?
my point in showing the discrepancy in numbers is that you are bringing up isolated incindences to discredit the larger purpose ... If you and jlew's only point is that innocent children shouldn't be targets of palestinian retaliation - then fine, i will give you guys that but this thread is much larger than that ...0 -
soulsinging wrote:polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
are you positive that if you come to steal my stereo i can't shoot you?
Answer my question first, and then I'll answer yours.
what question?0 -
soulsinging wrote:Because I believe that those that claim their cause is morally right lose credibility to that claim when they behave immorally. It's why I'm appalled at the US's stance on torture. Our unwillingness to do that sort of thing is what is supposed to set us apart from our enemies. Once we sink to their level, we become no better than them. I feel the same on this issue. Israel is a the bad guy here, but I hate to see Palestine sink to their level.
i'm with you here 100% ... which brings us back to my initial question ... what do you do when after all your suffering - no one is willing to help you? ... that was the point of my question all along ... there is no help for the palestinians now ... the majority of the world supports their cause but are useless in preventing the ongoing atrocities committed against these people ... they have been bakced into a corner for a long time now ...0 -
polaris_x wrote:jlew24asu wrote:ok maybe I'm confused by your anaolgy. if someone breaks into my house what would I do. my answer, go to the police. if someone steals a Palestinian's home, what do they do? go to the police - Hamas.
right?
no ... it is clear the settlers do not respect palestinian law - so, what point is there to going to local palestinian police? ... i'm assuming you would appeal to the israeli authorities then and to any higher authority you think might be able to help? ... what do you do when every single entity you appeal to does not help you?jlew24asu wrote:but it is that simple. there are many innocent children who live on land within post 1967 borders. according to you, they are valid targets. soul and I are firmly saying that its WRONG to target them.
i don't believe they should be targeted specifically but if they get caught in someone's attempt to get back their land - as soul would say "that's life"
That's life if they fire a rocket at a police station and hit a kid. That's wrong if they aim the rocket at a school. When I say "that's life" I mean that the fact is, there are assholes out there. Israel is one of them. The question though, is do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Do you want to whine about how evil Israel is and then blow up kids hoping one day Israel will just change or the world will suddenly realize you're right (which won't happen while you're blowing up kids)? Or do you want to look at reality, acknowledge that Israel is never going to be held accountable until it loses its support from the US, and then figure out a way to accomplish that and actually solve the predicament you're in? Do you truly think Palestine stands a change of getting Israel out via force of arms?0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:Because I believe that those that claim their cause is morally right lose credibility to that claim when they behave immorally. It's why I'm appalled at the US's stance on torture. Our unwillingness to do that sort of thing is what is supposed to set us apart from our enemies. Once we sink to their level, we become no better than them. I feel the same on this issue. Israel is a the bad guy here, but I hate to see Palestine sink to their level.
i'm with you here 100% ... which brings us back to my initial question ... what do you do when after all your suffering - no one is willing to help you? ... that was the point of my question all along ... there is no help for the palestinians now ... the majority of the world supports their cause but are useless in preventing the ongoing atrocities committed against these people ... they have been bakced into a corner for a long time now ...
Find a way to get that help, which means changing the minds of Americans so that they stop backing Israel and giving them the ability to act with impunity. And step one on that count is to not target innocent civilians so that you can claim moral high ground with clean hands. We will come around.0 -
soulsinging wrote:polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:Because the force used has to be REASONABLE. So if some guy comes in to grab your stereo and is then on his way out, you can't shoot him in the back. If he has his wife in the car, you can't shoot her just because she arrived with the guy that broke into your house. If he comes in waving a gun and dragging his wife and child behind and tell you to get out cos it's his house now, you cant take a shot at him, but you can't gun down his unarmed wife and child just because he's an asshole. Likewise, you can't blow up a school full of kids just because their parents took your land and kicked you off.
are you positive that if you come to steal my stereo i can't shoot you?
Answer my question first, and then I'll answer yours.
you:
back to your analogy ... if you can't afford to pay what you agreed to pay then that is your own consequence - it is not what is happening in gaza is it? ... feel free to come up with any analogous situation and i will respond accordingly ... stealing a stereo? ... no ... coming to my farm and sending my family onto the street and having no authority to turn to - yes ... i will fight back ...
me:
By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense and to serve as an example to others?0 -
soulsinging wrote:That's life if they fire a rocket at a police station and hit a kid. That's wrong if they aim the rocket at a school. When I say "that's life" I mean that the fact is, there are assholes out there. Israel is one of them. The question though, is do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Do you want to whine about how evil Israel is and then blow up kids hoping one day Israel will just change or the world will suddenly realize you're right (which won't happen while you're blowing up kids)? Or do you want to look at reality, acknowledge that Israel is never going to be held accountable until it loses its support from the US, and then figure out a way to accomplish that and actually solve the predicament you're in? Do you truly think Palestine stands a change of getting Israel out via force of arms?
no they do not stand a chance ... i also do not believe by remaining passive they will gain any further support or leverage ... i believe in some way - that their retaliation has prevented the further occupation of other territories and continues to keep this topic in the world spotlight ...0 -
soulsinging wrote:Find a way to get that help, which means changing the minds of Americans so that they stop backing Israel and giving them the ability to act with impunity. And step one on that count is to not target innocent civilians so that you can claim moral high ground with clean hands. We will come around.
ok ... how long do yuo wait? ... say they adopt a zero violence approach and israel continues to occupy and steal more land as they have done?0 -
soulsinging wrote:me:
By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense and to serve as an example to others?
if you a family comes to steal my land and no authority will help .. i will fight back ... although i wouldn't target the children - if they and the wife and grandparents fight back - and they die - so be it ...0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:Find a way to get that help, which means changing the minds of Americans so that they stop backing Israel and giving them the ability to act with impunity. And step one on that count is to not target innocent civilians so that you can claim moral high ground with clean hands. We will come around.
ok ... how long do yuo wait? ... say they adopt a zero violence approach and israel continues to occupy and steal more land as they have done?
Say they keep shooting and Israel uses it as an excuse to move in and sweep them out even further?
I don't have an answer on where to draw the line, but the fact of the matter is that as long as Israel has the US in its court without question, they will continue to act with impunity. And as long as Israel and the US can hang their hat on a school bombing as a justification, there will be no change in policy. Even you and Byrnzie arguing that it is ok for them to kill the unarmed, women, and children is enough to make Americans go "see, look what cruel fucking bastards they are?" Even the Israelis have the good fucking sense to at least lie and say "sorry, we were trying to hit a terrorist group... our bad!"0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:me:
By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense and to serve as an example to others?
if you a family comes to steal my land and no authority will help .. i will fight back ... ALTHOUGH I WOULDN'T TARGET THE CHILDREN - if they and the wife and grandparents fight back - and they die - so be it ...
You mean you don't think it's ok to target children, even in occupation circumstances? Funny... sounds a lot like what jlew and I have been saying.0 -
soulsinging wrote:Say they keep shooting and Israel uses it as an excuse to move in and sweep them out even further?
I don't have an answer on where to draw the line, but the fact of the matter is that as long as Israel has the US in its court without question, they will continue to act with impunity. And as long as Israel and the US can hang their hat on a school bombing as a justification, there will be no change in policy. Even you and Byrnzie arguing that it is ok for them to kill the unarmed, women, and children is enough to make Americans go "see, look what cruel fucking bastards they are?" Even the Israelis have the good fucking sense to at least lie and say "sorry, we were trying to hit a terrorist group... our bad!"
well ... i think the palestinians have waited long enough ...0 -
soulsinging wrote:By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense and to serve as an example to others?
I agree, Israel needs to stop doing this.0 -
soulsinging wrote:You mean you don't think it's ok to target children, even in occupation circumstances? Funny... sounds a lot like what jlew and I have been saying.
like i said in an earlier post ... if the only point the two of you would like to make is that targeting children is bad ... then point taken ... but the context of this debate goes well beyond that ...0 -
Commy wrote:soulsinging wrote:By shooting the guy kicking you off, then turning your gun on his wife, his children, and his parents for going along with his nonsense and to serve as an example to others?
I agree, Israel needs to stop doing this.
Damn right. They do too.0 -
polaris_x wrote:soulsinging wrote:You mean you don't think it's ok to target children, even in occupation circumstances? Funny... sounds a lot like what jlew and I have been saying.
like i said in an earlier post ... if the only point the two of you would like to make is that targeting children is bad ... then point taken ... but the context of this debate goes well beyond that ...
That is essentially the only point we tried to make... that nobody should be targeting children and innocents. But Byrnzie took that as both of us somehow trying to say Israel has never done anything wrong and is allowed to do whatever it wants to Palestinians. Neither of us ever said anything like that. We have both, repeatedly, said that Israel is very wrong in what it has done, that the US is wrong for unconditionally supporting it, and that Israel should be held accountable. We added that neither they nor Palestine should be targeting children, and he flips his fucking lid and starts saying we both support genocide... it's absurd. If there's one thing you'd think everyone can agree on, it'd be that you shouldn't try to kill children. Only on the Moving Train would that be a controversial statement :roll:0
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