I already shot down your claimed expertise on American free speech)
Sure, give yourself a pat on the back. I pretended to be an 'expert' on American free speech as it pertains to racial hatred on the internet. Your chest must have been swelling with pride ever since. Did you tell your lawyer buddies in the bar about it yesterday?
I don't go to bars. Nor do I need validation from winning debates with people on the internet to feel proud of myself. The point was simply that you don't have a monopoly on truth or even intelligent opinion, but that if you really need the validation, just ask and I'll see what I can for you. We have found we agree that innocent unarmed people shouldn't be targeted for violence, yet here you are, still trying to argue to prove... what exactly? Quit while you're ahead. Last time you tried to carry this to the next step, it ended with you finding you were 100% wrong.
Beating... not innocent and fair game for fighting back. That's called self defense.
Right, so do we agree that the thousands of settlers who engage in routine physical violence against Palestinians constitute legitimate targets?
thousands? its probably 10s of thousands...no no millions of settlers who regularly participate in beatings of Palastinians.
how about a jewish guy, mid 40s, married, 3 children. he moved to Israel from Poland. he moves into a single family home in occupied land. he, or his family, have never spit, yelled at, or beat up any Palestinian.
Beating... not innocent and fair game for fighting back. That's called self defense.
Right, so do we agree that the thousands of settlers who engage in routine physical violence against Palestinians constitute legitimate targets?
Haven't we covered this already? I feel like a dog chasing its godamn tail... those that engage in violence are not innocent, so sure. They're in there with military installations and other legit targets for the resistance. Innocent, unarmed women and children are not. Am I taking crazy pills or something? Is that such a difficult conclusion to reach?
Jewish extremists are stepping up attacks on West Bank Palestinians and peace activists
A recent UN report documented 222 attacks in the first half of this year, against a total of 291 for the whole of last year. On Friday, the former mayor of a West Bank settlement, Daniella Weiss, was charged with assaulting police officers. She allegedly hit police who had arrived at her house to search for suspects accused of setting fire to a Palestinian-owned olive grove.
Settlers said that the arrests were part of a 'witch-hunt' in the aftermath of the attack on Sternhell and claim that the attacks are carried out in self-defence.
Last month, after a Palestinian entered a Jewish settlement, burnt a house and stabbed a boy, dozens of settlers raided a nearby Palestinian village, throwing stones, firing guns into the air, breaking windows, damaging property and daubing the Star of David on the walls of homes.
Tactics such as burning orchards, blocking roads, rioting and stoning have become a routine part of the settlers' arsenal in their attacks on Palestinians. Police and soldiers are also being targeted amid lingering bitterness after clashes between the settlers and security forces when Israel removed its settlements from Gaza in 2005.
The settlers' aim is to deter the government from dismantling settlements in the West Bank, which Israel could be required to give up if a peace deal is struck with the Palestinians.
Elyakim Haetzni, a founding father of the settler movement, warned of civil war if Israel attempted to remove more settlements from the West Bank. He said that about 100,000 Israelis were ready to fight for the land. 'Every clash between the settlers and the police, the police get a beating and the army doesn't want to be involved any more. A great number of them are religious,' he said...'
how about a jewish guy, mid 40s, married, 3 children. he moved to Israel from Poland. he moves into a single family home in occupied land. he, or his family, have never spit, yelled at, or beat up any Palestinian.
is he and his family a valid target?
I answered this question above. My answer was 'no'. But he and his family still need to get the fuck out because they have no right to be there.
yes. thats what I'm saying. thats just a hopeful guess. and, in my opinion, worth a shot for Hamas. the alternative (firing rockets into Israel) has not done them any good.
rocket attacks worked? how? what did they accomplish? you said you dont understand how someone could want Palestinians to stop attacks. well call me crazy, but that means you want them to continue. I'm not misquoting you.
Do you actually read what has been posted or you just copy paste your replies. I just told you the attacks (not rocket attacks, previous attacks) WORKED by driving the israelis out of gaza because they could not sustain an internal occupation of Gaza. The attacks won the Palestinians their freedom INSIDE Gaza so the next point is to win their EXTERNAL freedom. Can I make this point any clearer?
The same occurred for Hizbullah in Lebanon in 2000.
again, are you not suggesting the rocket attacks should continue? by all means, correct me if I'm wrong. you really seem to think they work. personally I think its fucking moronic for them to do so. that will just bring more death and destruction.
No this is not what I suggested. My suggestions for the Palestinians of Gaza is to try and smuggle weapons and arm up as much as they can then build a strong military DEFENSE of Gaza without attacking the israelis. I DO NOT SUGGEST THEY LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS. That would be fucking moronic.
according to some reports, the "ceasefire" was broken when Israel found Hamas digging a tunnel into Israel. are you really shocked Israel tried to stop that from happening? I'm not.
You do realise that if the israelis did not have such a harsh blockade on Gaza EVEN DURING THE FUCKING CEASEFIRE there would not be a need for tunnels? The israelis while maintaining such a blockade on Gaza where violating the ceasefire agreement EVERYDAY. Get it?
and guess what, EVERYTIME Israel launches airstrikes, their excuse is to "stop bombing making factories" or a Hamas military installation, etc etc. my suggestion is for Hamas to stop giving Israel targets. I know you think my suggestion of peace is pointless but its really not.
Its pointless because the zionist movement does not want peace. Their ideology is to take over all the land from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river. Their actions in this past fucking century have proved this. they will not stop till they occupy all of the West Bank. Which part of that did you not get?
the US will stop supporting Israel if attacks Hamas (after Hamas has laid down its arms and said all attacks on Israel will stop). you can point to the 70s all you want but times are different now.
Hahahahahahhahahha your fucking kidding me right? You act like the US government can be held to a high moral standard hahahahahha funniest thing I've heard all week. Thank you.
rocket attacks DO NOTHING to help the Palestinians.
I agree with this. The current rocket attacks do nothing but harm the Palestinian cause yet you fail to understand that a population squeezed to breaking point will act out. So they must be forgiven if they send out a rocket or two in retaliation. Its not like they sent out two nuclear warheads because someone bombed a military base of theirs. Palestinians laying down their arms is foolish. Palestinians at this point in time attempting to fight the israelis 1 on 1 is also foolish.
first of all, dont answer shit for me. second of all, I did answer your question.
Actually you didn't. You said it would be a good idea if they lay down their arms. I asked what it would get them? You think it would get them a Palestinian state it wont. They'll lose the little pieces they have left.
You keep accusing Byrnzie of misquoting you when every post you have quoted me on you have misquoted me to further your argument. Did you even read my post? Where did I say this "Palestinians should continue (rocket) attacks on Israel"? I said the attacks WORKED.
far be it from me to misquote you so I'll ask.
should Hamas continue rocket attacks on Israel ?
No they shouldn't it only hurts the Palestinian cause. They should try to kill as many idf soldiers and violent settlers as they can though.
In the short term, yes. In the long term, it bears a good chance of turning the tide in the US the next time Israel goes nuts and blows up a bunch of innocent civilians.
You really think that once the israelis have complete control over the West bank there would even be a chance for a Palestinian state? At that point in time even if the tide turned in US it would be too late to do anything about it.
Mohammed Abu Akrub returned from school one afternoon and stood in the street with a few friends, doing nothing, according to him. Six Israel Defense Forces jeeps appeared suddenly and announced a curfew in the village. That was the start of the abuse of Mohammed and his five friends - abuse that continued until dawn, when the six were tossed out of the jeeps, wounded and battered.
During the beatings, the kicks, the curses and the sleep deprivation that they meted out on their detainees, the soldiers were busy playing on PlayStation. If the youths fell asleep, they were punished: Each was given a number and the soldiers did a "countdown" every few minutes; anyone who didn't get up was beaten. The youths received water and permission to go to the bathroom only after many hours. Two of them reported that hundreds of shekels were stolen from them by the soldiers. And, yes, the soldiers did glance at their IDs, but not at all of them and only just before the youths were freed. That's how pointless their arrest, not to say their kidnapping, was.
Following is the story of the "clockwork orange" at the IDF's Adurayim base. The incident took place on the night of April 26-27, and was recounted this week by a high-school senior, Mohammed Abu Akrub, in his home in Wadi al-Shajneh, near the town of Dura in the south Hebron hills. Akrub is 17 and lives alone with his brother; their parents are living in Saudi Arabia, where their father found work.
Advertisement
"Are you making trouble?" the officer asked Mohammed, who says he replied: "I'm a high-school student and I'm not causing any trouble." The army jeeps dispersed in the village and quickly returned with another four detainees. Ayash Ajawi, who was just coming back from therapy for the ruptured disc in his back, was beaten. The soldiers handcuffed the six men's hands behind their backs, blindfolded them and ordered them to march in a line to a larger military vehicle, which took them to the Adurayim army base, which Palestinians call majnuna - the crazy place - a few minutes away. The soldiers told them they would release them only in exchange for Gilad Shalit.
The six young men were placed in a detention cell and were given numbers from 1 to 6. Every few minutes the men had to call out their number to the soldiers, who were playing the role of prison wardens. After a few humiliating "countdowns," Ajawi, who was No. 1, refused to play the game. He was punished by having to stand still for about 15 minutes. During the next 14 hours, the six remained handcuffed and blindfolded, and were only allowed to go to the bathroom after about 12 hours.
At around 1:30 A.M. the soldiers began to play on PlayStation. The Palestinians did not see how many there were because they came and went. The soldiers also ate in the room, but the Palestinians were denied food; occasionally, one was kicked or slapped. The soldiers bent Rajai's glasses when they stepped on them, after noticing they weren't covered completely by the flannel blindfold and removing them. But only at 4:30 A.M. did what Mohammed now calls "the real story" begin.
The soldiers called Nos. 3 and 4, Abu Akrub and Saber Bustanji, 19, and ordered them to go outside. The two disappeared. After about 20 minutes they gave the same order to Nos. 1 and 2: Ajawi and Ali Bustanji, 21. Two by two, as in Noah's ark, the young men were taken to an unknown destination. After about 20 minutes came the turn of Nos. 5 and 6 - Midhat Shahin, 24, and our friend Mohammed, respectively. The soldiers, says Mohammed, began to beat them outside and then loaded the two onto a jeep. Inside they kicked Mohammed's face and blood flowed from his nose. After a drive of about five minutes, the handcuffed and blindfolded teen understood from the soldiers that they had reached the outskirts of the Al-Fawar refugee camp. The soldiers kicked Mohammed and Midhat, shoving them out of the jeep with their feet. Mohammed fell flat on his face on the road, his eyes still covered and his hands bound. He heard Midhat shouting and concluded that the soldiers were kicking and beating him. Afterward, they also hit Mohammed with their rifle butts while he was lying in the road, and he began to lose consciousness. He heard the soldiers ordering Midhat to wake him up and get him on his feet; Midhat slapped Mohammed in the face until he regained consciousness and he stood up somehow. Mohammed recalls that a soldier then began to beat him on the back with his rifle butt and kicked him in the groin. The abuse continued for maybe half an hour, according to Mohammed's estimate, on the outskirts of Al-Fawar.
Fuad Naji, a teacher who passed by early in the morning on his way to school (it was the day of his students' annual outing, and he wanted to arrive early), saw the soldiers beating the two handcuffed young men. The soldiers ordered him to leave and he continued on his way.
After the beatings, one soldier removed Mohammed's blindfold and handcuffs with a box cutter, putting the cutter against the young man's face; he lurched backward in fright and the soldier kicked him and hit his knee with a rock. Brandishing his rifle, the soldier then ordered Mohammed to leave. It was 5:30 A.M., exactly 14 hours after the kidnapping.
It turned out that each pair had been taken to a different place and beaten, and two were also robbed. Ayash recalls that a moment before he was released, the soldiers pulled his wallet out and confiscated NIS 600 of the NIS 620 inside; they also allegedly took NIS 140 from Abu Akrub. Ali Bustanji arrived at the hospital barefoot; the soldiers had thrown his shoes away.
The soldiers checked only two of the detainees' IDs - and even then, only hastily and only at the end of that night. Thus, the soldiers had no idea whom they were arresting, which means there was no justification for the arbitrary kidnapping. The young men filed a complaint last week with the Palestinian police and at the same time turned to the B'Tselem human rights organization.
The IDF spokesman provided this response to Haaretz this week: "On April 26, 2009, two Molotov cocktails were thrown at an IDF force that was traveling on Highway 60 as part of ongoing security activity in the area. Six Palestinians who were identified in the vicinity were arrested by the force. The claims of the article regarding improper treatment of the detainees are being investigated by the Military Police detective unit; at the end, its conclusions will be transmitted for perusal and an opinion by the chief military prosecution.
"Early in 2009 there were 13 incidents in which suspicious objects and dummy bombs were placed on Highway 60, as well as five incidents of throwing Molotov cocktails. In three cases, live ammunition was used against Israeli civilians who were traveling on Highway 60 - incidents that did not cause casualties."
Epilogue: A few days after the event, the field investigator for B'Tselem, Musa Abu Hashhash, arrived in Wadi al-Shajneh to gather evidence concerning the incident. A little while later, an IDF force arrived in the village again and this time arrested about 20 children, some of them six years old. Some were barefoot, most were frightened. The soldiers brought the children to the school and examined their hands to check whether they had thrown Molotov cocktails. One child was detained. Meanwhile, Abu Hashhash documented the entire incident with his video camera. He introduced himself as a B'Tselem investigator and the IDF officers present permitted him to film from a certain distance. However, shortly afterward, one soldier confiscated his camera and returned it about two hours later - with everything erased.
But israel doesn't target innocent civillians. :shock:
All you ever hear about is those damn palestinians, and how they continue to hinder some bullshit hope of peace by firing rockets into israel. I can't believe that there's still people that think the palestinians should continue to tolerate and endure suffering, and continue to resist such aggression without fighting back.
And the 20 odd children, frightened, some of them 6 years old. Absolute animals.
yeah the "debate" has degenerated into pointless details.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups within that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.
yeah the "debate" has degenerated into pointless details.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups withing that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.
yeah the "debate" has degenerated into pointless details.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups withing that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.
yeah the "debate" has degenerated into pointless details.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups within that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.[/quote]
hell I agree firing rockets into Israel is almost justified. Gaza is definitely under siege. my point is, however, that those rockets do way more harm then good for the Palestinians. so why bother? why not publicly announce they will never fire another rocket into Israel and will punish those militants who do...granted that Israel open the border and provide aid.
yeah the "debate" has degenerated into pointless details.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups within that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.
hell I agree firing rockets into Israel is almost justified. Gaza is definitely under siege. my point is, however, that those rockets do way more harm then good for the Palestinians. so why bother? why not publicly announce they will never fire another rocket into Israel and will punish those militants who do...granted that Israel open the border and provide aid.
why is that such a bad thing to at least try?
I agree with you that the rockets are doing more harm than good. absolutely. to the point where i'm seriously wondering if some of the rockets are being fired by provocateurs from Israel. but the rockets aren't the only form of vioelnce the palestinians have used in the past.
The U.S government gives $2.55 Billion in military aid to Israel every year, and yet these people have been jailed for 60 years for giving money to help orphans in Gaza. Just gives you another insight into how Americans have been indoctrinated on this issue.
'Two founder members of what was once the biggest Muslim charity in the US have each been jailed for 65 years.
Shukri Abu Baker, 50, and Ghassan Elashi, 55, were convicted of channelling funds to the Palestinian militant group, Hamas.
Three other members of the Holy Land Foundation were jailed for between 15 and 20 years by a Dallas court.
The charity was found guilty last year of sending $12m (£7.4m) to fund social programmes controlled by Hamas.
The five men were convicted in November on charges ranging from money laundering to supporting terrorism.
Hamas was designated a terrorist organisation by the US government 14 years ago, making it illegal to give the group money or other support.
The defendants said they were only interested in helping the needy.
Their supporters said no money had been used to fund violence, and the case was a by-product of what it called the anti-Islamic sentiment following the 11 September attacks of 2001.
Shukri Abu Baker told the judge in Dallas on Wednesday: "I did it because I cared, not at the behest of Hamas."
But prosecutors argued that the humanitarian aid sent by the charity allowed Hamas to divert money to militant activities.
Jurors had reached their guilty verdict last year after eight days of deliberations following a retrial of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development.
It was the largest terrorism financing trial since the 9/11 attacks.
The indictment against the group said it sponsored Palestinian orphans and families in the West Bank and Gaza whose relatives had died or been imprisoned as a result of Hamas attacks on Israel.
The charity was shut down and had its assets frozen in 2001.
I wonder what would happen if the logic behind this same form of collective punishment were to be applied to Israeli's?
Norman Finkelstein responding to Alan Dershowitz's attempt to justify house demolitions in the Occupied Territories:
'When Israel attacked Lebanon in June 1982 in order to "safeguard the occupation of the West bank" (Yehoshafat Harkabi's phrase), the popularity ratings of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Prime Minister Begin soared, while more than 80 percent of Israeli's held the invasion to be justified. When Israel's battering of Beirut in August 1982 reached new heights of savagery, more than half of Israeli's still supported the Begin-Sharon government, while more than 80 percent still supported the invasion - which in the end, left up to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all civilians, dead, and which the U.N General Assembly condemned by a vote of 143 to 2 (United States and Israel) for inflicting "severe damage on civilian Palestinians, including heavy losses of human lives, intolerable sufferings and massive material destruction." Only when the costs of the Lebanon aggression proved too onerous - initially, from the worldwide outcry against the Sabra and Shatila massacres and, later, from the escalating military casualties - did Israeli's turn against it.
When Israel's violent repression of the first Intifada reached new heights of brutality in 1989, more than half of all Israeli's supported the deployment of yet "stronger measures" to quell the largely nonviolent civil revolt (only one in four supported any lessening of the repression), while "an overwhelming 72 percent...saw no contradiction between the army's handling of the uprising and 'the nation's democratic values.'"
Operation Defensive shield (March - April 2002), although wreaking devastation on Palestinian society and culminating in the commission by Israeli forces of "serious violations" of humanitarian law and "war crimes" in Jenin and Nablus, was supported by fully 90 percent of Israeli's.
Beyond the emotional support that Israeli's have lent to crimes of state, it bears emphasis that Israel relies on a citizen army to implement policy: the collective responsibility of the Israeli people accordingly runs much deeper than "moral complicity." Finally, Israel couldn't commit such crimes without unconditional political and economic support from the United States, and it's the likes of Dershowitz who, through shameless apologetics and brazen distortions, crucially facilitate this unconditional support. What if Dershowitz's home were subject to the "benign form of collective accountability" he urges for Palestinians?'
Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank
Palestinians losing out in access to vital shared aquifer in the occupied territories
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 27 May 2009
'A deepening drought in the Middle East is aggravating a dispute over water resources after the World Bank found that Israel is taking four times as much water as the Palestinians from a vital shared aquifer.
The region faces a fifth consecutive year of drought this summer, but the World Bank report found huge disparities in water use between Israelis and Palestinians, although both share the mountain aquifer that runs the length of the occupied West Bank. Palestinians have access to only a fifth of the water supply, while Israel, which controls the area, takes the rest, the bank said.
Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans, the bank said. Increasingly, West Bank Palestinians must rely on water bought from the Israeli national water company, Mekorot.
In some areas of the West Bank, Palestinians are surviving on as little as 10 to 15 litres a person each day, which is at or below humanitarian disaster response levels recommended to avoid epidemics. In Gaza, where Palestinians rely on an aquifer that has become increasingly saline and polluted, the situation is worse. Only 5%-10% of the available water is clean enough to drink.
The World Bank report, published last month, provoked sharp criticism from Israel, which disputed the figures and the scale of the problem on the Palestinian side. But others have welcomed the study and its findings.
Gidon Bromberg, the Israeli head of Friends of the Earth Middle East, said there was a clear failure to meet basic water needs for both Israelis and Palestinians, and that Israelis were taking "the lion's share".
"The bottom line is there is a severe water crisis out there, predominantly on the Palestinian side, and it will be felt even worse this coming summer," Bromberg said at a conference on the issue in Jerusalem.
He said the Joint Water Committee, established in 1995 with Israelis and Palestinians as an interim measure under the Oslo peace accords, had failed to produce results and needed reform.
The World Bank report said the hopes that the Oslo accords might bring water resources for a viable Palestinian state and improve the life of Palestinians had "only very partially been realised".
It said failings in water resource and management and chronic underinvestment were to blame. In Gaza, the continued Israeli economic blockade played a key role in preventing maintenance and construction of sewage and water projects. In the West Bank, Israeli military controls over the Palestinians were a factor, with Palestinians still waiting for approval on 143 water projects.
"We consider that the efficiency of our aid in the current situation is compromised," said Pier Mantovani, a Middle East water specialist for the World Bank, which is an important source of aid for the Palestinians.
Most went on short-term emergency projects with limited long-term strategic value. It was a "piecemeal, ad hoc" approach, he said.
Yossi Dreisen, a former official and now adviser at the Israeli water authority, disputed the Bank's findings and said many remarks in the report were "not correct". He produced figures suggesting Israeli water consumption per person had fallen since 1967, when Israel captured and occupied the West Bank, while Palestinian consumption had risen.
Israel argues that the water problem should be solved by finding new sources, through desalination and water treatment.
"There is not enough water in this area," said Dreisen. "Something must be done. The solution where one is giving water to the other is not acceptable to us."
However, Fuad Bateh, an adviser to the Palestinian water authority, said Israel continued to have obligations under international law as the occupying power and should allow Palestinians water resources through an "equitable and reasonable allocation in accordance with international law".
He accepted that there was a lack of institutional development and capacity on the Palestinian side, but he said the Palestinians were caught in an unequal, asymmetric dispute. Palestinians had not been allowed to develop any new production wells in the West Bank since the 1967 war.
"Palestinians have no say in the Israeli development of these shared, trans-boundary, water resources," he said. "It is a situation in which Israel has a de facto veto over Palestinian water development."
Comments
I don't go to bars. Nor do I need validation from winning debates with people on the internet to feel proud of myself. The point was simply that you don't have a monopoly on truth or even intelligent opinion, but that if you really need the validation, just ask and I'll see what I can for you. We have found we agree that innocent unarmed people shouldn't be targeted for violence, yet here you are, still trying to argue to prove... what exactly? Quit while you're ahead. Last time you tried to carry this to the next step, it ended with you finding you were 100% wrong.
Lol wow. Look at the post I was responding to.
thousands? its probably 10s of thousands...no no millions of settlers who regularly participate in beatings of Palastinians.
how about a jewish guy, mid 40s, married, 3 children. he moved to Israel from Poland. he moves into a single family home in occupied land. he, or his family, have never spit, yelled at, or beat up any Palestinian.
is he and his family a valid target?
And it's a good job that you don't.
Haven't we covered this already? I feel like a dog chasing its godamn tail... those that engage in violence are not innocent, so sure. They're in there with military installations and other legit targets for the resistance. Innocent, unarmed women and children are not. Am I taking crazy pills or something? Is that such a difficult conclusion to reach?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oc ... middleeast
Israeli army chief slams settler attacks
Jewish extremists are stepping up attacks on West Bank Palestinians and peace activists
A recent UN report documented 222 attacks in the first half of this year, against a total of 291 for the whole of last year. On Friday, the former mayor of a West Bank settlement, Daniella Weiss, was charged with assaulting police officers. She allegedly hit police who had arrived at her house to search for suspects accused of setting fire to a Palestinian-owned olive grove.
Settlers said that the arrests were part of a 'witch-hunt' in the aftermath of the attack on Sternhell and claim that the attacks are carried out in self-defence.
Last month, after a Palestinian entered a Jewish settlement, burnt a house and stabbed a boy, dozens of settlers raided a nearby Palestinian village, throwing stones, firing guns into the air, breaking windows, damaging property and daubing the Star of David on the walls of homes.
Tactics such as burning orchards, blocking roads, rioting and stoning have become a routine part of the settlers' arsenal in their attacks on Palestinians. Police and soldiers are also being targeted amid lingering bitterness after clashes between the settlers and security forces when Israel removed its settlements from Gaza in 2005.
The settlers' aim is to deter the government from dismantling settlements in the West Bank, which Israel could be required to give up if a peace deal is struck with the Palestinians.
Elyakim Haetzni, a founding father of the settler movement, warned of civil war if Israel attempted to remove more settlements from the West Bank. He said that about 100,000 Israelis were ready to fight for the land. 'Every clash between the settlers and the police, the police get a beating and the army doesn't want to be involved any more. A great number of them are religious,' he said...'
I answered this question above. My answer was 'no'. But he and his family still need to get the fuck out because they have no right to be there.
How is that different from what we've been saying for the last 20 pages?
Thanks for making that correction, I think.
it would be interesting to sit around a camp fire and discuss this topic.
i can see it now.......everyone smiling and informing each other that their marshmellow is burning.
Do you actually read what has been posted or you just copy paste your replies. I just told you the attacks (not rocket attacks, previous attacks) WORKED by driving the israelis out of gaza because they could not sustain an internal occupation of Gaza. The attacks won the Palestinians their freedom INSIDE Gaza so the next point is to win their EXTERNAL freedom. Can I make this point any clearer?
The same occurred for Hizbullah in Lebanon in 2000.
No this is not what I suggested. My suggestions for the Palestinians of Gaza is to try and smuggle weapons and arm up as much as they can then build a strong military DEFENSE of Gaza without attacking the israelis. I DO NOT SUGGEST THEY LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS. That would be fucking moronic.
You do realise that if the israelis did not have such a harsh blockade on Gaza EVEN DURING THE FUCKING CEASEFIRE there would not be a need for tunnels? The israelis while maintaining such a blockade on Gaza where violating the ceasefire agreement EVERYDAY. Get it?
Its pointless because the zionist movement does not want peace. Their ideology is to take over all the land from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river. Their actions in this past fucking century have proved this. they will not stop till they occupy all of the West Bank. Which part of that did you not get?
Hahahahahahhahahha your fucking kidding me right? You act like the US government can be held to a high moral standard hahahahahha funniest thing I've heard all week. Thank you.
I agree with this. The current rocket attacks do nothing but harm the Palestinian cause yet you fail to understand that a population squeezed to breaking point will act out. So they must be forgiven if they send out a rocket or two in retaliation. Its not like they sent out two nuclear warheads because someone bombed a military base of theirs. Palestinians laying down their arms is foolish. Palestinians at this point in time attempting to fight the israelis 1 on 1 is also foolish.
Actually you didn't. You said it would be a good idea if they lay down their arms. I asked what it would get them? You think it would get them a Palestinian state it wont. They'll lose the little pieces they have left.
No they shouldn't it only hurts the Palestinian cause. They should try to kill as many idf soldiers and violent settlers as they can though.
You really think that once the israelis have complete control over the West bank there would even be a chance for a Palestinian state? At that point in time even if the tide turned in US it would be too late to do anything about it.
only if those marshmallows are civilians settlers....let em burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Twilight Zone / PlayStation
Mohammed Abu Akrub returned from school one afternoon and stood in the street with a few friends, doing nothing, according to him. Six Israel Defense Forces jeeps appeared suddenly and announced a curfew in the village. That was the start of the abuse of Mohammed and his five friends - abuse that continued until dawn, when the six were tossed out of the jeeps, wounded and battered.
During the beatings, the kicks, the curses and the sleep deprivation that they meted out on their detainees, the soldiers were busy playing on PlayStation. If the youths fell asleep, they were punished: Each was given a number and the soldiers did a "countdown" every few minutes; anyone who didn't get up was beaten. The youths received water and permission to go to the bathroom only after many hours. Two of them reported that hundreds of shekels were stolen from them by the soldiers. And, yes, the soldiers did glance at their IDs, but not at all of them and only just before the youths were freed. That's how pointless their arrest, not to say their kidnapping, was.
Following is the story of the "clockwork orange" at the IDF's Adurayim base. The incident took place on the night of April 26-27, and was recounted this week by a high-school senior, Mohammed Abu Akrub, in his home in Wadi al-Shajneh, near the town of Dura in the south Hebron hills. Akrub is 17 and lives alone with his brother; their parents are living in Saudi Arabia, where their father found work.
Advertisement
"Are you making trouble?" the officer asked Mohammed, who says he replied: "I'm a high-school student and I'm not causing any trouble." The army jeeps dispersed in the village and quickly returned with another four detainees. Ayash Ajawi, who was just coming back from therapy for the ruptured disc in his back, was beaten. The soldiers handcuffed the six men's hands behind their backs, blindfolded them and ordered them to march in a line to a larger military vehicle, which took them to the Adurayim army base, which Palestinians call majnuna - the crazy place - a few minutes away. The soldiers told them they would release them only in exchange for Gilad Shalit.
The six young men were placed in a detention cell and were given numbers from 1 to 6. Every few minutes the men had to call out their number to the soldiers, who were playing the role of prison wardens. After a few humiliating "countdowns," Ajawi, who was No. 1, refused to play the game. He was punished by having to stand still for about 15 minutes. During the next 14 hours, the six remained handcuffed and blindfolded, and were only allowed to go to the bathroom after about 12 hours.
At around 1:30 A.M. the soldiers began to play on PlayStation. The Palestinians did not see how many there were because they came and went. The soldiers also ate in the room, but the Palestinians were denied food; occasionally, one was kicked or slapped. The soldiers bent Rajai's glasses when they stepped on them, after noticing they weren't covered completely by the flannel blindfold and removing them. But only at 4:30 A.M. did what Mohammed now calls "the real story" begin.
The soldiers called Nos. 3 and 4, Abu Akrub and Saber Bustanji, 19, and ordered them to go outside. The two disappeared. After about 20 minutes they gave the same order to Nos. 1 and 2: Ajawi and Ali Bustanji, 21. Two by two, as in Noah's ark, the young men were taken to an unknown destination. After about 20 minutes came the turn of Nos. 5 and 6 - Midhat Shahin, 24, and our friend Mohammed, respectively. The soldiers, says Mohammed, began to beat them outside and then loaded the two onto a jeep. Inside they kicked Mohammed's face and blood flowed from his nose. After a drive of about five minutes, the handcuffed and blindfolded teen understood from the soldiers that they had reached the outskirts of the Al-Fawar refugee camp. The soldiers kicked Mohammed and Midhat, shoving them out of the jeep with their feet. Mohammed fell flat on his face on the road, his eyes still covered and his hands bound. He heard Midhat shouting and concluded that the soldiers were kicking and beating him. Afterward, they also hit Mohammed with their rifle butts while he was lying in the road, and he began to lose consciousness. He heard the soldiers ordering Midhat to wake him up and get him on his feet; Midhat slapped Mohammed in the face until he regained consciousness and he stood up somehow. Mohammed recalls that a soldier then began to beat him on the back with his rifle butt and kicked him in the groin. The abuse continued for maybe half an hour, according to Mohammed's estimate, on the outskirts of Al-Fawar.
Fuad Naji, a teacher who passed by early in the morning on his way to school (it was the day of his students' annual outing, and he wanted to arrive early), saw the soldiers beating the two handcuffed young men. The soldiers ordered him to leave and he continued on his way.
After the beatings, one soldier removed Mohammed's blindfold and handcuffs with a box cutter, putting the cutter against the young man's face; he lurched backward in fright and the soldier kicked him and hit his knee with a rock. Brandishing his rifle, the soldier then ordered Mohammed to leave. It was 5:30 A.M., exactly 14 hours after the kidnapping.
It turned out that each pair had been taken to a different place and beaten, and two were also robbed. Ayash recalls that a moment before he was released, the soldiers pulled his wallet out and confiscated NIS 600 of the NIS 620 inside; they also allegedly took NIS 140 from Abu Akrub. Ali Bustanji arrived at the hospital barefoot; the soldiers had thrown his shoes away.
The soldiers checked only two of the detainees' IDs - and even then, only hastily and only at the end of that night. Thus, the soldiers had no idea whom they were arresting, which means there was no justification for the arbitrary kidnapping. The young men filed a complaint last week with the Palestinian police and at the same time turned to the B'Tselem human rights organization.
The IDF spokesman provided this response to Haaretz this week: "On April 26, 2009, two Molotov cocktails were thrown at an IDF force that was traveling on Highway 60 as part of ongoing security activity in the area. Six Palestinians who were identified in the vicinity were arrested by the force. The claims of the article regarding improper treatment of the detainees are being investigated by the Military Police detective unit; at the end, its conclusions will be transmitted for perusal and an opinion by the chief military prosecution.
"Early in 2009 there were 13 incidents in which suspicious objects and dummy bombs were placed on Highway 60, as well as five incidents of throwing Molotov cocktails. In three cases, live ammunition was used against Israeli civilians who were traveling on Highway 60 - incidents that did not cause casualties."
Epilogue: A few days after the event, the field investigator for B'Tselem, Musa Abu Hashhash, arrived in Wadi al-Shajneh to gather evidence concerning the incident. A little while later, an IDF force arrived in the village again and this time arrested about 20 children, some of them six years old. Some were barefoot, most were frightened. The soldiers brought the children to the school and examined their hands to check whether they had thrown Molotov cocktails. One child was detained. Meanwhile, Abu Hashhash documented the entire incident with his video camera. He introduced himself as a B'Tselem investigator and the IDF officers present permitted him to film from a certain distance. However, shortly afterward, one soldier confiscated his camera and returned it about two hours later - with everything erased.
All you ever hear about is those damn palestinians, and how they continue to hinder some bullshit hope of peace by firing rockets into israel. I can't believe that there's still people that think the palestinians should continue to tolerate and endure suffering, and continue to resist such aggression without fighting back.
And the 20 odd children, frightened, some of them 6 years old. Absolute animals.
sure bad things happen on both sides. but the context is important. everything is pointless without it.
one one hand you have a super power armed state initiating violence against a very poor, densely populated civilian population.
on the other you have extreme groups within that terrorized population acting out against the oppressors, sometimes through very public acts of violence.
the video in the OP, posted a few dozen pages ago, is the reason you even wonder if what Hamas is doing is justified. blindly firing rockets....its almost justified, after seeing that video. almost.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.
Quoted for content. Respect as Byrnzie would say.
I wholeheartedly agree.
but make no mistake, Gaza is under siege. How can you blame a people for fighting back, for resisting that? they have held their own against a superpower, they kicked US soldiers out in the 70's i believe, and they've kept Israel from occupying the west bank recently. and here they are, still proud, inthe face of some of the worst brutality and violence we can imagine. it really is a testament to how strong the palestinian people really are. fighting a super power armed state, with nothing but homemade rockets and will. And they're still there.[/quote]
hell I agree firing rockets into Israel is almost justified. Gaza is definitely under siege. my point is, however, that those rockets do way more harm then good for the Palestinians. so why bother? why not publicly announce they will never fire another rocket into Israel and will punish those militants who do...granted that Israel open the border and provide aid.
why is that such a bad thing to at least try?
should Hamas continue firing rockets into Israel? if so, what do you think that will accomplish?
I've already answered your question about the rockets. The fact that you continue to ask it says a lot.
I also agree with Commy on the topic so I'm pretty sure you can derive the answers you need from that as well.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8071113.stm
Wednesday, 27 May 2009 22:56 UK
Hamas backers jailed in Texas
'Two founder members of what was once the biggest Muslim charity in the US have each been jailed for 65 years.
Shukri Abu Baker, 50, and Ghassan Elashi, 55, were convicted of channelling funds to the Palestinian militant group, Hamas.
Three other members of the Holy Land Foundation were jailed for between 15 and 20 years by a Dallas court.
The charity was found guilty last year of sending $12m (£7.4m) to fund social programmes controlled by Hamas.
The five men were convicted in November on charges ranging from money laundering to supporting terrorism.
Hamas was designated a terrorist organisation by the US government 14 years ago, making it illegal to give the group money or other support.
The defendants said they were only interested in helping the needy.
Their supporters said no money had been used to fund violence, and the case was a by-product of what it called the anti-Islamic sentiment following the 11 September attacks of 2001.
Shukri Abu Baker told the judge in Dallas on Wednesday: "I did it because I cared, not at the behest of Hamas."
But prosecutors argued that the humanitarian aid sent by the charity allowed Hamas to divert money to militant activities.
Jurors had reached their guilty verdict last year after eight days of deliberations following a retrial of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development.
It was the largest terrorism financing trial since the 9/11 attacks.
The indictment against the group said it sponsored Palestinian orphans and families in the West Bank and Gaza whose relatives had died or been imprisoned as a result of Hamas attacks on Israel.
The charity was shut down and had its assets frozen in 2001.
Norman Finkelstein responding to Alan Dershowitz's attempt to justify house demolitions in the Occupied Territories:
'When Israel attacked Lebanon in June 1982 in order to "safeguard the occupation of the West bank" (Yehoshafat Harkabi's phrase), the popularity ratings of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Prime Minister Begin soared, while more than 80 percent of Israeli's held the invasion to be justified. When Israel's battering of Beirut in August 1982 reached new heights of savagery, more than half of Israeli's still supported the Begin-Sharon government, while more than 80 percent still supported the invasion - which in the end, left up to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all civilians, dead, and which the U.N General Assembly condemned by a vote of 143 to 2 (United States and Israel) for inflicting "severe damage on civilian Palestinians, including heavy losses of human lives, intolerable sufferings and massive material destruction." Only when the costs of the Lebanon aggression proved too onerous - initially, from the worldwide outcry against the Sabra and Shatila massacres and, later, from the escalating military casualties - did Israeli's turn against it.
When Israel's violent repression of the first Intifada reached new heights of brutality in 1989, more than half of all Israeli's supported the deployment of yet "stronger measures" to quell the largely nonviolent civil revolt (only one in four supported any lessening of the repression), while "an overwhelming 72 percent...saw no contradiction between the army's handling of the uprising and 'the nation's democratic values.'"
Operation Defensive shield (March - April 2002), although wreaking devastation on Palestinian society and culminating in the commission by Israeli forces of "serious violations" of humanitarian law and "war crimes" in Jenin and Nablus, was supported by fully 90 percent of Israeli's.
Beyond the emotional support that Israeli's have lent to crimes of state, it bears emphasis that Israel relies on a citizen army to implement policy: the collective responsibility of the Israeli people accordingly runs much deeper than "moral complicity." Finally, Israel couldn't commit such crimes without unconditional political and economic support from the United States, and it's the likes of Dershowitz who, through shameless apologetics and brazen distortions, crucially facilitate this unconditional support. What if Dershowitz's home were subject to the "benign form of collective accountability" he urges for Palestinians?'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ma ... er-dispute
Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank
Palestinians losing out in access to vital shared aquifer in the occupied territories
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 27 May 2009
'A deepening drought in the Middle East is aggravating a dispute over water resources after the World Bank found that Israel is taking four times as much water as the Palestinians from a vital shared aquifer.
The region faces a fifth consecutive year of drought this summer, but the World Bank report found huge disparities in water use between Israelis and Palestinians, although both share the mountain aquifer that runs the length of the occupied West Bank. Palestinians have access to only a fifth of the water supply, while Israel, which controls the area, takes the rest, the bank said.
Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans, the bank said. Increasingly, West Bank Palestinians must rely on water bought from the Israeli national water company, Mekorot.
In some areas of the West Bank, Palestinians are surviving on as little as 10 to 15 litres a person each day, which is at or below humanitarian disaster response levels recommended to avoid epidemics. In Gaza, where Palestinians rely on an aquifer that has become increasingly saline and polluted, the situation is worse. Only 5%-10% of the available water is clean enough to drink.
The World Bank report, published last month, provoked sharp criticism from Israel, which disputed the figures and the scale of the problem on the Palestinian side. But others have welcomed the study and its findings.
Gidon Bromberg, the Israeli head of Friends of the Earth Middle East, said there was a clear failure to meet basic water needs for both Israelis and Palestinians, and that Israelis were taking "the lion's share".
"The bottom line is there is a severe water crisis out there, predominantly on the Palestinian side, and it will be felt even worse this coming summer," Bromberg said at a conference on the issue in Jerusalem.
He said the Joint Water Committee, established in 1995 with Israelis and Palestinians as an interim measure under the Oslo peace accords, had failed to produce results and needed reform.
The World Bank report said the hopes that the Oslo accords might bring water resources for a viable Palestinian state and improve the life of Palestinians had "only very partially been realised".
It said failings in water resource and management and chronic underinvestment were to blame. In Gaza, the continued Israeli economic blockade played a key role in preventing maintenance and construction of sewage and water projects. In the West Bank, Israeli military controls over the Palestinians were a factor, with Palestinians still waiting for approval on 143 water projects.
"We consider that the efficiency of our aid in the current situation is compromised," said Pier Mantovani, a Middle East water specialist for the World Bank, which is an important source of aid for the Palestinians.
Most went on short-term emergency projects with limited long-term strategic value. It was a "piecemeal, ad hoc" approach, he said.
Yossi Dreisen, a former official and now adviser at the Israeli water authority, disputed the Bank's findings and said many remarks in the report were "not correct". He produced figures suggesting Israeli water consumption per person had fallen since 1967, when Israel captured and occupied the West Bank, while Palestinian consumption had risen.
Israel argues that the water problem should be solved by finding new sources, through desalination and water treatment.
"There is not enough water in this area," said Dreisen. "Something must be done. The solution where one is giving water to the other is not acceptable to us."
However, Fuad Bateh, an adviser to the Palestinian water authority, said Israel continued to have obligations under international law as the occupying power and should allow Palestinians water resources through an "equitable and reasonable allocation in accordance with international law".
He accepted that there was a lack of institutional development and capacity on the Palestinian side, but he said the Palestinians were caught in an unequal, asymmetric dispute. Palestinians had not been allowed to develop any new production wells in the West Bank since the 1967 war.
"Palestinians have no say in the Israeli development of these shared, trans-boundary, water resources," he said. "It is a situation in which Israel has a de facto veto over Palestinian water development."