From an email I sent to a friend on religion. Any opinions?

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Comments

  • mikesguitar
    mikesguitar Posts: 55
    ClimberInOz wrote:
    It is simplistic and naive to expect fossils to be found that are half way between all of the major groups of organisms..


    I don't agree. Why?
  • Kilgore_Trout
    Kilgore_Trout Posts: 7,334
    mikesguitar wrote:
    I don't agree. Why?
    http://www.fossils-facts-and-finds.com/how_are_fossils_formed.html

    not every organism that died in the past became a fossil... it takes the right circumstances... its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils... im not a geologist or archeologist tho... i can only theorize... but that seems to be what this thread is for :D
    "Senza speme vivemo in disio"

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  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    mikesguitar wrote:
    Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?

    Let's simplify, indeed. ClimberInOz already mentioned Occam's Razor. And I agree with him.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    mikesguitar wrote:
    The DVD does a great job in showing how evolution gives no account for the origin of genetic info for either protein or the flagellar motor assembly.

    This is an interesting read.

    http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikesguitar wrote:
    I do my own interpreting of the Bible. I don't rely on the Church. Anyway, if you take the time to throroughly study the other religions you'll find they have irreconcilable contradictions. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not trying to have an attitude. I'm just putting some info out there in case someone wants to check it out, which I believe would benefit them.
    ...
    You just validated my point. You have chosen your own path towards God... I have chosen mine. Who are we to say our path is the only path? And as you and i have seperate paths, so do other people and other religions... Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.. They do not need to share the same path, or even parallel them.
    Like a mountain.. there are many different ways to get to the top. There is only one mountain top, many trails that lead to it.
    ...
    And you need to at least point out some verifiable 'irreconcilable contradictions' (even in brief) to make this point valid.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikesguitar wrote:

    I don't really see how the info in the DVD could be disproved but I'll check that link out when I get some time.
    ...
    You don't have to watch the DVD. you can check out the facts since it was a public court case.
    Search keywords: Dover Pennsylvania Intelligent Design Trial.
    Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al., Case No. 04cv2688
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikesguitar wrote:
    I'm just curious what your refutation of this is.
    ...
    Dragons.
    Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
    The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
    The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
    ...
    Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikesguitar wrote:
    Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?
    ...
    It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
    In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.
    The next cycle. The matter was always there and will always be there. No one had to invent it or create it.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    mikesguitar wrote:
    Collin wrote:
    It has design written all over it?

    That's a highly subjective view, you start from the assumption that complexity equals divine creation. Why?
    I sincerely hope you're not actually comparing physical cosmology to putting a watch in a bag and banging on it with a hammer. Because if you do you might as well admit that you aren't knowledgable about the creation of planets from a scientific view. So again, why can complexity only be a attribute of god?


    Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?

    Is assuming there's a far more sophisticated creator already out there that great an answer?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • DOSW
    DOSW Posts: 2,014
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
    In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.

    Actually right now we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. The deceleration of the universe's expansion might or might not be great enough to eventually reverse direction. But, in time (probably decades) we will scientifically know for sure, and that's pretty interesting.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • seanw1010
    seanw1010 Posts: 1,205
    mikesguitar wrote:
    There's one simple question that
    atheists probably hear on a regular basis in one form
    or another. If a god didn't 'initially' create matter
    and motion, who or what did? In other words, how did
    the initial motion and matter begin to exist? That's
    the question the arguments all seem to come down to in
    the end. Technical arguments about the earth could be made all day by either
    side, but unless an atheist at least has an explanation
    about the very beginning of matter and motion, then what's the
    point in even trying to make a case against creationism?

    It seems clear to me that God didn't create a
    truth so technically sophisticated that it would take
    half a lifetime of text book research to catch a
    glimpse of it, even if that was possible. If that was
    the case then only the
    most scientifically-oriented, intelligent few would be
    saved by His gospel (the gospel is the story of
    Christ's death and the explanation of it's saving purpose)
    and the gospel itself (the thread of the entire
    Bible) would be of little importance. Instead, as the
    Bible states it, God simply exists and His creation
    makes it obvious to all. I believe the Bible teaches
    that knowing the truth is only possible by having the
    desire to know God (the truth). Being of the Calvinist
    persuasion, I believe having this desire is only
    possible when God gives it, and gives it only to some.
    I can't advocate the Calvinism aspect of the Bible
    with total confidence and I could even be wrong about
    it. People having this desire to know God and humility
    toward God seem to be an intertwining process.
    According to the Bible, pride is one of the seven
    abominations which God hates, the sin that ushered in
    the initial fall (the angelic fall) as well as the
    initial fall of man, and is the sin that most often
    snared men throughout the Bible. It's no wonder then,
    God choosing to unfold a creation story in Genesis
    filled with so much wild, almost fantasy-like symbolic
    imagery for the proud to scoff at and stumble upon.
    I'm not trying to accuse you of being proud. I'm
    trying to explain to you a mental pic of God's ways in
    relation to mankind and creation.
    douche
    i cant believe the guy you sent this to is your friend
    they call them fingers, but i never see them fing. oh, there they go
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    DOSW wrote:
    Actually right now we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. The deceleration of the universe's expansion might or might not be great enough to eventually reverse direction. But, in time (probably decades) we will scientifically know for sure, and that's pretty interesting.
    ...
    I know. I think it is fascinating.
    And it is ridiculous to think that we know everything at this point in Man's evolution... evolution or creation. But, the science is pointing towards eveolution and away from creation... just as we once believe the Earth was the center of the Universe, based solely on Man's own vanity and the God we created in our image.
    ...
    and who knows? For all we know God creates life through random order, not with Man as His ultimate goal... it's possible that Adam and Eve were the first bacteria that emerged from the premordial soup and evolved into the diversity of life on this planet. Maybe God is life itself and Man is created in His image because we possess life... and so are cats and dogs and otters and fleas and maggots and daffodils.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Dragons.
    Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
    The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
    The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
    ...
    Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.

    what interests me most right now(and this thought popped into my head the other week) is how such a huge animal such as an apatosaurus(for example) came out of an egg. im not saying they didn't. but it makes me think. cause when i look at the animal kingdom now, the largest animals in it are live births. just a thought... but it's got me thinking.
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    catefrances wrote:
    what interests me most right now(and this thought popped into my head the other week) is how such a huge animal such as an apatosauC401381
    rus(for example) came out of an egg. im not saying they didn't. but it makes me think. cause when i look at the animal kingdom now, the largest animals in it are live births. just a thought... but it's got me thinking.
    ...
    Who knows? Look at the giant Panda... them suckers grow pretty big. When they are born, they are little tiny things. Maybe Nature slated those giant beasts (dinosaurs) for extinction so the smaller mammals hiding in the underbrush could take over.
    ...
    Also the apatosaurus (formerly known brontosarus), is believe to be more mammalian in it's behaviour, than reptilian, in that it is now believed to have been a grazing animal that lived in herds. I don't know whether it layed eggs like the Raptors or gave live birth.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Who knows? Look at the giant Panda... them suckers grow pretty big. When they are born, they are little tiny things. Maybe Nature slated those giant beasts (dinosaurs) for extinction so the smaller mammals hiding in the underbrush could take over.

    yeah but still the panda is a live birth and a mammal. im looking at animals such as elephants and blue whales(just to pick the largest land and marine critters). imagine an elephant hatching out of an egg. :)
    and how is it that they decided dinosaurs were reptiles anyway?
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    catefrances wrote:
    yeah but still the panda is a live birth and a mammal. im looking at animals such as elephants and blue whales(just to pick the largest land and marine critters). imagine an elephant hatching out of an egg. :)
    and how is it that they decided dinosaurs were reptiles anyway?
    ...
    Mistake. The earlier finds categorized them a reptile because they thought the bone structure closely resembled lizards (sarus). As more and more fossils were discovered, palentologist discovered that they sometimes had rib cages like that of elephants or hippos.
    I don't know what data they have on birthing... other than the smaller, birdlike dinosaurs.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Mistake. The earlier finds categorized them a reptile because they thought the bone structure closely resembled lizards (sarus). As more and more fossils were discovered, palentologist discovered that they sometimes had rib cages like that of elephants or hippos.
    I don't know what data they have on birthing... other than the smaller, birdlike dinosaurs.

    and then we have the platypus and the echidna. both mammals and both hatch from eggs. :) aah nature... she's a pistol. :D
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    catefrances wrote:
    and then we have the platypus and the echidna. both mammals and both hatch from eggs. :) aah nature... she's a pistol. :D
    ...
    I wonder who's going to take over went Nature decides to move the 'Great Apes' to the extinction list... Bees? Ants?
    Whoever it is... i hope in their evolution, they learn from our mistakes and don't try to claim God in their image and leave the rest of the life forms out in the cold. God is for every living thing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I wonder who's going to take over went Nature decides to move the 'Great Apes' to the extinction list... Bees? Ants?
    Whoever it is... i hope in their evolution, they learn from our mistakes and don't try to claim God in their image and leave the rest of the life forms out in the cold. God is for every living thing.

    well cosmo i reckon that when nature decides great apes' time is up she'll have to pull something quite cataclysmic out of her bag. and in doing so we wont be the only casualities. the earth will be purged of all complex beings and she will start anew. either that or we'll all be wiped out by some flu type thing and koalas will take over the world. :D
    hear my name
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  • mikesguitar
    mikesguitar Posts: 55
    sgossard3 wrote:
    http://www.fossils-facts-and-finds.com/how_are_fossils_formed.html

    not every organism that died in the past became a fossil... it takes the right circumstances... its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils... im not a geologist or archeologist tho... i can only theorize... but that seems to be what this thread is for :D

    You and me both. I try to keep in a constant state of learning but sometimes it's just easier to listen to pearl jam.
    sgossard3 wrote:
    [its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils.


    I don't remember the popular atheist's take on how many years ago the dinos began walking the earth and when they ceased to exist. I'm assuming that info would be necessary in determing whether or not your statement could be correct. The longer the span, the more unlikely the statement would be correct. The longer the span, the more periods of transition and possibilties of environments conducive to fossil forming.

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